Should the nightborne join horde? or alliance?

Story
Hey hordies... should the nightborne join the horde ? Would you like these guys? or is it too many elves for the horde. Do you feel blood elf is all the elf the horde will ever need or you would like some dark purple blood elves too?

I assume Ally welcomes elves - would you want nightborne playable as a full race or okay as a night elf sub-race on the alliance? or would you prefer them not to be playable but still linked with the night elf and highborne?
2 elven races is enough
Weve got elvish warchief, half or even 60% of hordies are elves.. Well i think its enough, this is horde, not elvish alliance ;p i would like to see ogres or different troll tribe or eredars, after defeating kiljaeden/sargeras.
13/05/2017 20:56Posted by Kelian
I assume Ally welcomes elves


Let us put it this way, Elves in the Alliance (and yes, we have (lore-wise, at least) Night and High Elves) are appreciated. Much more than under Garrosh's rule, anyway. Blood Elves got mauled by Garithos and Garrosh. That's tough. ´

13/05/2017 20:56Posted by Kelian
okay as a night elf sub-race on the alliance


Then Helves would get the same status, very likely.

13/05/2017 20:56Posted by Kelian
would you prefer them not to be playable but still linked with the night elf and highborne


That would make sense, since the Nightborne have slightly more in common with the Kaldorei.

13/05/2017 21:35Posted by Arames
i would like to see ogres or different troll tribe or eredars


Would be cool and fits the Horde profile well.
I worry, that adding them as a playable race to join either factions would cause more damage to their lore than what we might think. Currently, they are the Highborne of old. They saw the ancient Empire, they are Elves who didn't join either factions and their lore in Legion in 7.0 was fantastically done.

If anything, the only way they can be made playable is through the idea of them getting the Pandaren treatment. My reason for this is that both Kaldorei and Sin'dorei answered their call for aid against Elisande and the loyalists. For them to just side with one faction is a complete slap in the face to other Elven race. Further to this, two of the Shal'dorei are impressed with the Sin'dorei more than the Kaldorei. However, in all honesty, I would rather the Nightborne remain unplayable because I fear that these ancient Highborne would become just Human slaves and they do not deserve that. Khadgar already took spotlight off them as he ordered them in 7.1, lets not continue that. I'm sure Night Elves, High Elves and Blood Elves are used to being told what to do by Humans...this shouldn't be the case for the Nightborne.
How about they just keep to themselves.
14/05/2017 09:52Posted by Tanariá
I worry, that adding them as a playable race to join either factions would cause more damage to their lore than what we might think. Currently, they are the Highborne of old. They saw the ancient Empire, they are Elves who didn't join either factions and their lore in Legion in 7.0 was fantastically done.


I like this.. i still wonder why the night elves were made playable on the alliance side... these are the freakin Elven originals, the super elves - from this the high elves came - they were awesome at first, but on being playable they went from being described as a titanic race to being nerfed so hard.

it looks like a soft reset with the nightborne, that making playable might totally nerf. But who knows, blizzard didn't nerf the draneei when they made them playable, and since then have been bolstering races they make playable not nerfing them.. so maybe they've changed.

14/05/2017 09:52Posted by Tanariá
If anything, the only way they can be made playable is through the idea of them getting the Pandaren treatment. My reason for this is that both Kaldorei and Sin'dorei answered their call for aid against Elisande and the loyalists. For them to just side with one faction is a complete slap in the face to other Elven race. Further to this, two of the Shal'dorei are impressed with the Sin'dorei more than the Kaldorei. However, in all honesty, I would rather the Nightborne remain unplayable because I fear that these ancient Highborne would become just Human slaves and they do not deserve that. Khadgar already took spotlight off them as he ordered them in 7.1, lets not continue that. I'm sure Night Elves, High Elves and Blood Elves are used to being told what to do by Humans...this shouldn't be the case for the Nightborne.
I dont' know if that's enough to make justify them playable on the horde though. I do feel blood elves on the horde is like a special snowflake nightborne will take away from without adding anything meaningful to.

I know they will add a lot to the night elves giving them the magic compoenent from the empire days they don't have and give the alliance an answer to the blood elf magical superiority which i don't like as much. But if those 2 guards are to be believed, the blood elves aren't too far behind the nightborne - at least in terms of magical might - i'm sure the nightborne have far more knowledge, afterall 15k years and immensely powerful magical sources with super intelligence and most of the knowledge from the empire is a huge advantage in other departments.

But as it is wow, its combat that matters, and the BEleves are much closer.. Besides, the BElves are entitled to the arcane knowledge of the night elf empire, so blizzard should find a way to give it to them if they take nightborne over to the alliance. This will make things much closer, as the nightborne would still have an advantage but a much smaller one. 10k years under the shield with all that ancient knowledge woudl have made for many amazing developments - BUT - being trapped in a shield would limit scope and diversitiy. Meanwhile though H/BElves had to almost start building from nothing, they have had diversity and new adversity to toughen them up and show them new things. To make up for some of the knowledge they lost they've learnt new magics from trolls, Naaru, the legion, the keepers, dragons - the nightborne and shen'dralar highborne were not around for most of these.. it will help even the scales. It might still give nightborne an advantage overall on the magical side, but it would small as Blood elves show more drive and ingenuity, whereas nigihtborne show more wisdom but are less accustomed to diversity and so may not pick up new things as quickly.

Yeah, magically we see the night elven arcane lot impressd with the sin'dorei... both the moonguard and the nightborne are, which is saying something.. meanwhile it must seem the kaldorei look like savages in comparison a huge disappointment.. yet that is never reflected in their speech. I suspect they admire the kaldorei more for beating the legion twice and going that long without arcane magic. You see, they view the kaldorei as themselves.. it's like them going without magic - IMPOSSIBLE! how could we do anything? yet here their brothers forsook the luxuries and the fascination of the arcane and despite it all endured.

This would be remarkable, they won't agree with it.. they'd likely be keen to help them return to their legacy and I would suspect feel it their duty to restore their kin's confidence in arcane - by holding themselves to the highest standards. Remember despite living entirely off the arcane under the shield, the nightborne actually made no irresponsible errors - they brought no catastrophe on themselves, no demons were summoned from anywhere, no one went power mad or crazy - the effect of the magic was the physical tax on their bodies relying on it for food produced. Not on the character. Showing they could let go of the nightwell too is an indication that they have overcome magic to be its true masters, you cannot truly master anything if you cannot let it go, you're actually its slave.

This as well as putting their lives on the line to save their city, nay insisting on it (Tyrande mentions) will actually raise their profile to the night elves considerably.. the potential that Valewalaker Farodin saw in them is being realized fully, they are primed to become the magic wielding elven group the night elves will be able to trust. - more so than the shen'dralar highborne (remember not all nightborne were highborne they were just highborne led).

Impressed with the blood elves as they have been, the blood elves won't have anything over them - joining them for their magic makes little sense - they are impressed at that stage because it gives them a fighting chance they can understand. . afterall, how can bows and arrows compete against the might of the nightwell? The resistance would be very nervous about the kaldorei, but not with the sin'dorei as the wield magic they can understand - and are thus impressed. however being impressed doesn't mean they need anything or would gain anything, their civilization is more magical and they know it.

And remember it's the heroes that save the nightborne. Yes the armies came to help, but its the heroes that Thalyssra thanks - the heroes are either going to be horde or alliance. It's not the order halls that save the nightborne, the heroes - and the story will pick one of the factions to be the default lore response.

Remember both factions helped the night elves in Warcraft 3 - and they went alliance, both factions also helped the blood elves in TBC sunwell plateau, and they were horde. Both factions gathering to defeat the legion moreso than help the shal'dorei. Though both leaders empathize with the situation, the other blood elves like Rommath seem quite indifferent. It is the hero and the night elves of the broken isles that seem to actually care about and help the city as we can see by the quest and the actions of the Valewalker, the Moonguard and the Val'sharah refugees.

So in total, all this means is that both factions helping doesn't mean they'd go to both. And its one of those situations that hides things cleverly, because on the surface it looks far more blood elf leaning, but when you look into the lore -it screams night elf , ancient world all over. Whereas blood elves, humans /orcs are the modern world. Kalimdor, broken isles = night elves/tauren/highborne/nightborne/naga etc those are all ancient world.
14/05/2017 11:46Posted by Gaelphedias
How about they just keep to themselves.


This. It would make more sense for them to be neutral and cooperate with both factions.
The most fitting races to join the horde as playable races are either:
1. Ogres (better Gorian ones, with some interesting lore)
2. "partly redeemed" Eredar, which broke from the legion but are still a merciless, warlike race that despise their blue bretheren.

Somehow, I can't see a reason for the nightborne to cease being neutral.
Only if implemented as Pandaren, they can swing both ways imho... and I'm personally failing to see how they are anything like Kaldorei, in my eyes, Kaldorei are complete opposite to Highborn/High elves... highly doubt druids would allow this kind of elves anywhere near Darnassus and World tree. Last time those arcane addicts were close they destroyed the whole world and caused shattering.

For me its even unthinkable that night elves allow mages in their ranks, its somewhat like draenei or tauren would allow warlocks. Just doesn't fit imho.

Us Horde should get something that fits horde lore more... Arakkoa in my eyes are perfect fit for Horde, shamanistic, in tune with nature, beastly, robust... perfect race to add to our arsenal.
15/05/2017 09:05Posted by Beher
For me its even unthinkable that night elves allow mages in their ranks, its somewhat like draenei or tauren would allow warlocks. Just doesn't fit imho.


Yeah, it is not allowed, player can create mage, but lorewise the mage he created isnt ,,our actuall'' night elf, its one of the elders who remained after wars, like with Farondis, look at his society/kingdom, their magic knowledge and amount of sorcerers was even bigger than ours, Khadgar many times showed us, that hes interested in this lost knowledge, also Queen Azshara and her society/Suramar, they wasnt always nightborne, in the past it was night elves, druidism and whole nature uare speakin about was implemented by malfurion and tyrande after war with Azshara and her demonic allies.
15/05/2017 09:46Posted by Arames
Yeah, it is not allowed, player can create mage, but lorewise the mage he created isnt ,,our actuall'' night elf,

update your lore, it is allowed and encouraged. Their were difficulties with accepting the highborne a few years ago, not the use of arcan.

Just before the cataclysm Malfurion explained to a bunch of impatient highborne it would take sometime possibly even years for all to accept them but the highborne will be part of night elf society.

Legion shows us night elves not having problems with arcane usage, sympathetic with the plight of the nightborne addiction (Farodin) and far more caring about magical use in balance, an error that drove the highborne along with all the night elves and their glorious civilization down to madness.

As a blood elf you actually like alot about the night elf empire save Azshara's evil. Blood elves are very proud of their highborne heritage, their night elf heritage, it's the Kaldorei of that exiled them they don't like.

15/05/2017 09:05Posted by Beher
Only if implemented as Pandaren, they can swing both ways imho... and I'm personally failing to see how they are anything like Kaldorei, in my eyes, Kaldorei are complete opposite to Highborn/High elves... highly doubt druids would allow this kind of elves anywhere near Darnassus and World tree. Last time those arcane addicts were close they destroyed the whole world and caused shattering.

update your lore. Night elves relationship with magic and magic users started changing as soon as they came out of isolation, and if you understand the lore, the issue with magic was about preventing the legions's return not because it was evil. The animosity was against reckless and irresponsible users, not simply any user. This is why you see them working with alliance mages in WC3 war.

It matters not how different kaldroei culture is, but update your lore, their culture has been changing a lot from the days before the 3rd war. The highborne are back in their society.

Druids do not hate mages, nor the nightborne or highborne. They are weary of the highborne's track record, because of how emphatically out of control they got, but Malfurion opens the doors for the shen'dralar highborne and makes promises like they wouldlive freely amongst them and keep their ways. Farodin is full of compassion for the nightborne, recognizes their recent experience has humbled them (humility is good) but the shal'dorei have much potenetial - he talks about magic in balance and it is the imbalance that has caused this issue. he explains to you his order was founded to fix the problem and restore the balance to all of night elf society before the craziness would lead to something like what it did - i..e their original mission failed, they couldn't get a funcitoning arcan'dor in time to help Azshara's crazy bunch. But it works now.

You really need to update your lore, it does show fully what the real issue are with the night elves which is different from what the issues with the blood elves are.

You can also see there are mages, highborne and magic users that work their magic in balance with nature, both boosting each other. Remember it is the arcane that the titans used to order the world. The arcane and nature go hand in hand and are deeply connected which is why arcane sources boost nature, life, health, intelligence etc. Now when you get too arrogant and have no regard for balance, for the lives of others, for natural harmony - that's destructive behaviour. To a druidic night elf the threshold would not just be at harming human life, but at complete disregard for the natural world ... balance druids understand sometimes you need to destroy things for a greater good and sometimes sacrifices are necessary, but wholesale disregard is not good.

The highborne got to a stage they were disregarding, callous, high handed with everyone and everything - all was expendable to acquire more power and knowledge. Sure knowledge and power are really good things, but not going crazy over them.. that's out of whack...and we can see clearly highborne like Thalyssra, Elisande, Farondis, Estulan, Evenshade, most of the nightborne are actually not like that.. however Azshara and the palace highborne were, when kale'thas went all crazy he and his blood elves became like that.

Finally regarding the nightborne and highborne. They are their own society and peoples and its good to have them separate from the main kaldorei, although kaldorei society can easily integrate them because of how segregated it is. they share some common goals, like the protection of the world, and don't cross certain lines, caring about the balance of the world, but they have very very different disciplines and view points if you are a mage or a priest or sentinel or a highborne mage.

Saying that i can easily see a situation where they are allies. I don't particualrly want the highborne or nightborne in the horde. I think the horde has too many elves with the blood elves and they have the best elven group in the blood elves.

On paper the blood elves might be less than the night elves or the nightborne in terms of raw natural intellect, stature, height, longevity, but they've accomplished much more and they've really picked themselves up. If you don't care that much about being perfectly good the blood elves are so much more than any other group of elves incl the nightborne. The nightborne simply have more raw power and knowledge, but i'd always bet on the blood elf because he is more driven.

The nightborne don't add anything to the blood elves, you already have playable highborne via the blood elves - who are highborne descendants, you don't need to have playable nightborne, it adds nothing, the nightborne have nothing to gain from the blood elves already outstripping them in magical knowledge and power at this point in time. All the diversity they need isn't going to be had from the blood elves, its in the night elves. The reconnection to nature (via druids), the reconnection to faith (via the priesthood) and they remember the days when the prayers use to ascend to Elune, they miss that stuff - sticklers for the fullness of the glory days, they already have the perfectly preserved city, they'd want its preisthood back and the outdoors mastery too. They get this better from the night elves. Not to mention the night elves also have the actual highborne too

So even if kaldorei are frosty to them, the highborne will give them friendship and people they can relate too. Furthermore they seem greatly revere the kaldorei, "we nightborne owe our unmatched grace and intellect to our ancestors" - and they talk the praises of those who gave their lives to save them.. these are all those who fought the demons to protect suramar and the other night elf realms in the war of the ancients - yes you got that.. the very night elves who they thought all died when they were under the shield.

Look at how Thalyssra and her people have done everything Tyrande said, you'd think they were trying to please her. Then to come out of the shield and find the kaldorei don't wield magic (they haven't met the highborne yet and aren't appraised of all the history that's gone on) they live such a low existence, but you see none of the rebel nightborne comment on that - because there is the awe that those lot without wielding the cosmic powers of the universe, defeated the legion twice - that says something - and despite not living in great cities and palaces they will soon find out that the kaldorei have faired very healthy without magic, whereas the highborne of eldre'thalas fell to ruin.. what does that say?

It says they'll admire the !@#$ out of the kaldorei, but won't adopt their ways, they believe in magic through and through, if anything, they'll try to restore the confidence of the kaldorei in the arcane arts. The high elves and they themselves are living proof the arcane can be wielded without going into ruin like the shen'drealar and can help you withstand all thoughts of problems.

They know it is the ancient legacy and birthright of the kaldorei as they have mentioned that several times and they will see themselves as the ones to gift their brethren by enhancing the mastery of their legacy and restoring their confidence fully.

If they wanted a new experience too, they don't need the blood elves for that, cos the high elves are aligned with the alliance, what they could get from the blood elves that the night elves can't provide they can get from the high elves.

The draenei offer them new knowledge of worlds and naaru tech and they are close friends with the night elves.

Please, let them not come to the horde, i'd rather the highborne and the nightborne stay neutral and accepting of the blood elves, but not joining them. I'm fine with some of the nightborne choosing to ally with the night elves' cause as a show of good faith and thus being playable. I'm also fine with some of the nightborne visiting Quel'thalas and being friendly with the blood elves and helping them too - i'd actually like that. But I don't want them to join the horde. Too elfy a horde is not really the horde - the elf have a standard and level of etiquette and presentation that is definitely not horde and quite their own. I think most of their race should be in their own faction with only some of them in the alliance and horde.

I think they should start with the nightborne being some sort of elvendom - the nightborne are a night elf group but this is night elf bigger than the alliance, this is the original Kaldorei legacy that touches all elven groupos -so yeah most of it will be mentioned in the night elf world, but it should be the group that brings players perception of the night elf world completely out of the alliance - so people view the night elves as the night elf - because they're huge, and they are the original elves, they don't belong to the alliance, these are the elves the blood elves came from, i don't like them all being on the alliance, i don't want to hate all the night elves. I'm okay with conflict being with some of them. So i'm fine with the Kaldorei ones already in the alliance being their. But the Broken Isles night elves, highborne (Farondis and Shen'dralar), the nightborne too. These guys should become the main face of the night elves and of the elves, while the alliance night elves continue to play a secondary role to affairs.

Hopefully they keep Illidan neutral -Malfurion is meutral like majority of the time, and forutnately Tyrande hasn't been too alliancey, we should see them only once in a while in alliance affairs, but feature heavily in elven and global affairs like dealing with the old gods and the leigon - which is what they're good at.

And while they fight the horde, remember it's only part of the night elves that are involved with the alliance. The broken shore groups are nearly all mostly neutral. And the war heat should shift from night elf v blood elf to high elf v blood elf, because those two groups are way more into the faction and loyalty and the players really get behind the hate.
15/05/2017 11:54Posted by Kelian
update your lore
Whats there to update... blizzard nonsense story of "all is good now, because we need to add something to night elves, only thing they don't have is shaman, mage and lock... shaman we give to dwarfes... so lets give them mage, coz lock just wont do"

Please... its well known fact that lore of this game has ended after WotLK, all of this what they are doing since cata is utter garbage and catering to game mechanics, it has nothing to do with original story anymore.

All of a sudden they discover Shen'dralar... come on now... Shen'dralar have been there since ever. Night elves had a base camp in Feralas since ever.

Even when we buy that pathetic story they push down our throat, fine... night elves still keep vigil watch over magic users and they surely don't encourage it as you claim.

Never said druids hate mages, druids don't approve of their usage of arcane. Druids themselves use arcane, but not like mages use it.
15/05/2017 12:13Posted by Beher
Whats there to update... blizzard nonsense story of "all is good now, because we need to add something to night elves, only thing they don't have is shaman, mage and lock... shaman we give to dwarfes... so lets give them mage, coz lock just wont do"


this was in response to you saying "highly doubt druids would allow this kind of elves anywhere near Darnassus and World tree. Last time those arcane addicts were close they destroyed the whole world and caused shattering." - which the lore has shown empahtically they have, which i then went on to tell you about in detail.

I didn't mean to offend you or dump on you, just to say that statement isn't accurate and lore has changed to show the opposite and that's not even a retcon, it's a direction they went with and it was supported by the work they did earlier. A retcon would be when they said night elves were first to awaken in the world then change it to make them come from trolls or Sargeras was corrupted by kiljaeden and change it to be he recruited them. You are entitled not to like it, but I think a lot of people who hold this view point from the old lore still haven't really followed the updates or the story in detail otherwise they wouldn't say things like that.

15/05/2017 12:13Posted by Beher
Please... its well known fact that lore of this game has ended after WotLK, all of this what they are doing since cata is utter garbage and catering to game mechanics, it has nothing to do with original story anymore.

All of a sudden they discover Shen'dralar... come on now... Shen'dralar have been there since ever. Night elves had a base camp in Feralas since ever.

Even when we buy that pathetic story they push down our throat, fine... night elves still keep vigil watch over magic users and they surely don't encourage it as you claim.

Never said druids hate mages, druids don't approve of their usage of arcane. Druids themselves use arcane, but not like mages use it.
but its the story they've given us. The world is big enough to contain all these groups, the problem is when you show too much too soon, if you make a map and you say this is the world, and person explores it, if they go to x area and don't see something there that you add later, it feels like a retcon

truth is the game world isn't the complete representation of Azeroth, there are a lot of things in Azeroth that don't show up in the game. whole cities and towns and areas. it's like the game world is only a scaled down approximation. Which is great news, because the game world is pretty damn small, and while imaginative, very imaginative, it lacks a lot of imagination to account for a full world. so if in-game was everything it wouldn't be much of a world.

You see in a game like WC1-3 you don't have the whole world to explore. The map is such that you know you're not seeing full detail, and it guids you along a fixed path, the stuff you encounter you know is not everything about the area or place, there's more towns and cities in this area than the one you went through - unless they say ofc the place is isolate or desolate except for this 1 town

It's just the way these things work.
I would hope to actually get a story, not a side note in a trailer... and then having to orally explain that trailer, because they know its not even remotely imaginable for things to pan out that way... but game mechanics, every race gets a new class... they had to come up with something... even so poor as this with night elf mages.

For me it would not be a problem is this was planed out in the past, hinted, slowly introduced and then explained with elaborate quest chain or cinematic or something.

Understand what you are saying about WC, and I do agree completely with you... but there is a difference, we didn't have that part of the world... in this case we did have Shen'dralar... we could even gain rep with them, but for some reason it took night elves 8 years to discover Shen'dralar, while night elves players were already in good with them. Its just poor story telling if you ask me.

Its not how things work, its how blizzard butchers their lore in order to make compromises and profit.

I can dig tauren paladins... never were paladins, after some time learning and adapting to powers of the light they gain the ability to become paladins, incorporate them into their society... but this, we were mage society then those mages destroyed the world... then we banished them, and now we let them back in, because why not... what can go wrong. Thats just weak.
15/05/2017 13:16Posted by Beher
I would hope to actually get a story, not a side note in a trailer... and then having to orally explain that trailer, because they know its not even remotely imaginable for things to pan out that way... but game mechanics, every race gets a new class... they had to come up with something... even so poor as this with night elf mages.

For me it would not be a problem is this was planed out in the past, hinted, slowly introduced and then explained with elaborate quest chain or cinematic or something.
poor to you, but i've noted people who've longed for this arcane reunion amongst the night elves and were quite pleased about it.

the only disappointment was the lack of detail ande xplansation, but then it is part of the focus of an entire booik though itdoesn't have muchto say or show in game - and that's cos night elves weren't a focus for that expansion.

Remember when they first introduced night elves? they spoke about their wonderful mythical arcane empire that reached heights not seen before only for the meddling to attract the demons to the world.

Many warcraft users like magic and like elves, that the night elves didn't seem to have much of arcane magic in their repertoire was disappointing to some, and that there was no sign of tat empire night elves had many a fan really looking out for the night elf return to the arcane , where they would instead do it right.

but wow dragged on and it didn't happen until cataclysm with the shend'ralar - so not everyone is against it btw, many night elf fans do like and want that side of them back - they wanted to see the ruins in thier full glory, and wanted the night elves returned to that state.

well they got their wish, and blizzard did it in a way that allows them to keep the night elves still relatively nature based, but no longer isolated - while allowing a compoenent of the kaldorei empire to return in full force, with all the beauty and majesty of the kaldorei empire in it. this is exactly what the nightborne are, living in one of the empires most beautiful city, uncahnged in their ways since before the sundering. Only their bodies changed, they replaced the well of eternity with a source that rivaled its potency and continued on in their lives.

Now you may not like this, that's why blizzard hasn't gotten rid of the druids, and the forest - there is that part of the night elves that won't change with the highborne in it or the nightborne, but blizzard moves the story along and expands races, and those who wanted that side of the night elves now get something to chew on and look forward to in the nightborne.

THis may be odd in the fantasy world, especially in video games where the story only focuses on one period of time, and the group stay exaclty the same as you get to see them at the start right through to the end and every future refernce...but in wow, you have a dynamic story, things develop, they don't all stay at the point you meant them in WC3, or in WC2 - and the funny thing is the arcane was part of the night elf story from tis very introduction, it was not a major part of their society at the time you meet them in the game, but the lore is clear it was a huge part fothem and they were very good at it but lost all of that to the invasion and sundering. They hadn't picked it up fro 10k years, but all the reason for living like that, all comes to head in the game that introdcues them.

So to the night elf you play in wow, both the arcane empire days, and the 100% pure nature vigil days are BOTH in the past. Tehy move on from both to forge a new identiy in a world they are no longer in isoaltion from but now have to interact with other racs
...personally I don't mind it at all, but we are given a story over and over how they made Sin'dorei leave, how entire world was almost destroyed because of those mages and so on... a story that was developed for years and years with key deeply developed plots and characters like Azshara, Illidan, Malfurion... great stories backed up in RTS, RPG dungeons, books etc... and then, all of a sudden, some random unknown dude comes from somewhere (not even displayed anywhere)... and poof, all is forgiven, all is forgotten... there you go...

You can't honestly as a SF/Fantasy/Adventure fan say thats good story development.

If they made a quest chain elaborating on these events, why all of a sudden this is happening, discussion of Tyrande and Malfurion regarding these events, a choice being made to risk it due to Deathwing... something... but, nothing.
15/05/2017 14:50Posted by Beher
..personally I don't mind it at all, but we are given a story over and over how they made Sin'dorei leave, how entire world was almost destroyed because of those mages and so on...
we are given one story, our repetitive play makes it seem that its over and over, but it actually isn't.

and remember the story is very clear about the reason, just because the community evolves it into something more than it is intended. The story was quite clear why magical use for spell was banned - and then why the highborne were exiled

to take that to mean night elves hate mages and magic was never in the story not after describing them as a magical group like they did. The community may have fixated on things it wanted too. They used moonwells from the start and those were waters of the well of eternity. the arcane continued with them filing them with power but they didn't use it for spells not cos they hated it because what they thought it would do.

It was shrouded in a lot of mystery that became clear over time, but clear it became.

15/05/2017 14:50Posted by Beher
a story that was developed for years and years with key deeply developed plots and characters like Azshara, Illidan, Malfurion... great stories backed up in RTS, RPG dungeons, books etc...
the story was not developed for years and years, it was introduced and mostly told in Wc3, then a book released that pretty backs up everything i said, then nothing. wow didn't tell a story about the night elves till legion. it introduced the night elves now post wc3 - they built a huge tree, and it had a corruption issue trying to get back their immortality.

Yet these night elves worked with kael'thas and the blood elves until Illidan took them all to outland, no magic hating in the main narrative. Anger at the highborne for their role in the sundering yes. but they reveal to you the palace highborne were responsible for this - WotA shows you this. then the game introduces another city of highborne not from zin'azshari - the ones in eldre'thalas they survived, they weren't in league with the demons. Then they introduce Suramar city as survived under a shield - thought ruined cos no one knew what was under there - turns out the night elves there continued life exaclty as it was in the empire days.

15/05/2017 14:50Posted by Beher
great stories backed up in RTS, RPG dungeons, books etc... and then, all of a sudden, some random unknown dude comes from somewhere (not even displayed anywhere)... and poof, all is forgiven, all is forgotten... there you go...
the rpg books put a skew on things not supported by the main narrative, and they are excised from canon, follow the actual canon, it makes a lot of sense. And because of the history of the shen'dralar not being the palace highborne things a little different. And remember the palace highborne that rebelled against the queen were living iwth the night elves just fine, the problem came when they started using magic.

the issue was not magic, but its usage that could draw the legion and its usage by the same group that didn't handle it well. but it's been 7,000 years since and much of what the night elves thought about magic was proven wrong when they came out of isolation. e.g. that magic could only be wielded from the well of eternity - this is why they guarded the new well and planted nordrassil = it was all to hide it so no one could discover magic - so they wouldn't repeat the error of the elves ..why? why is it an error and why shouldn't they discover magic.. cos magic of itself is bad? no, because its use would bring the legion - and that's bad.

night elves have been in isolation and baning magic, they don't realize the well's implosion spread magic through azeroths, saturating it rather than it only being concerntrated in one spot. .they don't know this because they ban it, then suppress it over their continent.

Also magical usage can hidden from extra-dimensional eyes, they know enough about magic remember they were all masters of magic, the highborne most of all. they knew magic was seeable in the twisting nether, that's why nordrassil is planted - to mask the well's power signature from being seen in the twisting nether.. using the well for magic will make azeroth a beacon, however at the time Darth remar points out a way could be found to use magic and compensate for that also - they don't believe him and say he's only considering this crazy proposal because he's addicted - it's way too risky, so they don't look into it. meanwhile that's exactly what the arcanists in dire maul that Queen azshara herself do almost effortlessly, it's not even a theory for them, they draw a demon, trap it and have zero demonic interferefnce from the twisting nether.

they hide their power signature - but the night elves aren't aware of this. Dire maul is far to the south, they only guard up to Ashenvale forest, the highborne of that city don't care about anything outside their city, just focusing on their magical fascination, slowly poisoned by demonic influence till they almost wipe themselves out.. but they casue no second invasion.

the suramar night elves also effortlessly practice magic fully without drawing any demonic attention from outside, and they have a power source that rivals the original well of eternity in potency.

the night elves exile the highborne, who then build a society of magic they use fine without drawing the demons. It's the humans reckless use and the high elves not telling them the scary past that starts the demonic incursions again

illidan had warned that abstaining from magic won't stop the legion - he knew more about the legion and their true intentions teh night evles did not. but they considered him a traitor and didn't listen to most of what he said. Malfurion though does take seriously the legions' return, and with the well restored by Illidan who maiev labels betrayaer because she thinks he did it to summon his friends back - completely missing him they go ahead.

So they are in isolation unaware of the magical developments - the use of magic without the well, the ability to hide its use from the legion - and the only reason they ban magic is to prevent the legion from ever returning to this world becuase they think magical portal is the only way that can happen - because that has been their experience. They have no idea about the legion ships or travelling through space, but illidan does. legion ships didn't arrive on azeroth in the first place, the well portal was the main means - and ofc the legion would have made improvements themselves in the coming years, the one person who could have convinced them they are better making full use of magic, getting better with it and better able to defend themselves agianst an inevitable return they have locked up for 10,000 years.

They come out of isolation to discover a lot of things changed. This is all stuff that is available in WC3 and just at the introduction of wow. This isn't new info, the night elves can't help but change from the vigil culture they are described in before WC3.

it's not blizzards fault some of the community take the vigil culture to be the absolute truth about the night elves, when it's just the state htey were in before their introduction. just as the arcane era was the state before that. both pure nature existence, and the arcane dominant era both are teh past when they are introduced in wc3, because wc3 brings the change. the demons return then, and everything changes.. so they start wow out of isolation, although magic is still banned it's un-necessary which is why they ally with people who use magic like the humans and later the draenei and that's not a problem with them.

never once are they shown to have a problem with humans ..the anger is at the highborne for their role and the specific highborne are those of the palace, not those in eldre'thalas or in suramar. Malfurion has a particular accusation for the ones of Eldre'thalas - he points out they did not make the portal but he explains the anger of the darnassian community they want to accept them in straight away, pointing out to them that eldre'thalas highborne stood by and watched doing nothing when the queen got increasingly crazy and made the portals that brought the demons, they didn't lift a finger till their city was in danger, so they are not faultless and the people know this even though they didn't bring the demons. the people need time.

It's even better for Suramar, because all of Suramar fought the queen and rebelled. from Azsuna province of Suramar which Azshara cursed Farondis for tyring to destroy the portal, to Val'sharah province of Suramar where Ravencrest led an army from all over suramar to march on Zin'Azshari to Suramar city itself why the highborne stationed there rebelled against the Queen led by Elisande and stopped the second demon portal. though they refused afterwards to join the rest of the Suramar people to march on Zin'Azshari, but refused to protect their city not having confidence the rebellion would succeed, they certainly didn't help azshara or do nothing .... the night elves have less reason to hate the nightborne than the shen'dralar they forgive.

Tyrande is angry at her foromer home for choosing to hide in the last push instead of fight - and guess what they do this time round? They fight, and Tyrande remarks on this "... but the Shal'dorei INSIST on defending themselves" - they insist on playing a part in the battle though many have little experience with warfare and she sends you to help get them ready which is when they send you to val'sharah to get some of ravencrests brilliant strategies.

The story is continuous.. the problem is that because the night elves got very little development in wow, people assumed they were just druids and went off some of the rpg book statements -- repetitive play driving some of those things in as if they were more than they were. Blizzard in wow did very little night elf development, wow night elves don't even explain the races arcane empire and legacy, it focuses on teldrassil for level 1-12 and shows you the history of the 3rd war = you need the books to find out about more. then it gives the race no development till the introduction of the highborne in cata, then hardly anything until legion.

meanwhile you only see night elves when they add druid stuff so your brain decides they are all nature - you forget that night elf society has been run by the priesthood not the druids, the druids have their own thing and while teh preisthood are dedicated to teh vigil, they aren't tree huggers, but you think of night elves as druidic only - why? because that's all you've seen them as even though the lore was clear that the druids mostly slept and tried to heal/balance the world, but it was the women that ran the society. The priesthood, hence the first impression of night elves were sexy woman warrior - like the Amazonian women wonder woman is from

what happened to that? Nothing - its still part of the lore, just that the game only showed the druid side outside the starting area.. where most people spend their time at end game, not levelling in teldrassil/darkshore/ashenvale - darkshore had some of the arcane history showing, and ahsenvale more on the priests - but after that.. all of tbc , wotlk and every time you would see druuids if you didn't play the night elf zones was when you saw a night elf. i.e. blizzard didn't bother to show you the other parts they had written about them. you never see sentinels outside the starting area, almost never saw demon hunters - even tbc the bulk of demon hunters were blood elf, you had little night elf development. When you were chasing illidan it was all about the blood elves and the draenei - no tyrande, no maiev. MAiev only shows up at the end

the part you see of the night elves? Blades edge mountain doing what? nature stuff - all druidic stuff, Zangarmarsh is showing you the Cenarion circle - druids again and thus you see night elves.

They just didn't show you them because they were not really a focus, just thrown in there so every one has a bit of something. I mean doesn't it surprise you that illidan is the main villain yet night elves aren't really a part of the main story thrust for TBC?

exactly, the reason why the small cata development seems surprsiing is because blizzard didn't build it up in classic/tbc or wotlk - though they started to at the end of wotlk when initially they said it was the highborne that warned the world via the night elves of deathwings plan, we feel malfurion was going to play a major role, but then it switched to thrall maybe when they realized it's more an elemental thing - and all the extra focus on the highborne was canned.

The truth is those who were looking very much forward to night elf development were looking forward to the return of the arcane from Wc3, cos they knew that the demons returning meant a new start for the night elves, one out of isolation where the ban on magic no longer made much sense.

There was sitll the issue of addiction, but the night elves had the tree and balance of nature and remembering the past to control any reckless urges.. blizzard never used that , they just introduced it. Told us Evenshade and Estulan's bunch were uncorrupted highborne and left it at that. The whole balance thing isn't explained till Farodin fixes the nightborne addiciton in legion and that's the first time night elves have become a major focus in wow. First time, since their introduction in WC3 are they a major focus in the warcraft universe again.

And none of the developments should surprise you if you followed their lore, but if you were only playing the game over and over again, seeing night elves as demon hunters, wardens, mages, nightborne , advanced magical society seems alien to you - except that ALL those things have always been part of their lore since they introduced them. you just weren't shown them till now.

they weren't the big flashy spotlight that you see now which is what happens in an expansion when you are focused on. Don't blame blizzard, they've told us about all this in WC3, WotA and a lot of material outside wow, it's only in wow you havne't seen it because night elves weren't really being developed in wow till legion.
I honestly don't understand how can you write wall of text saying completely nothing and giving wrong or partial info.

We are given parts of that story in vanilla while doing dire maul, questing in many zones, gaining Shen'dralar rep, doing stuff for bronze dragons... then in TBC parts of the story reveal through several quests... after that in WotLK there is nothing... then in Cata there is tons of lore related to war of the ancients, even entire dungeon is reconstructed allowing players to literally participate in final events of the war. Few small mentions in MoP and nothing in WoD... legion goes a step further and elaborates all those events in details through Forandis and Suramar...

Why is it hard for you to understand that nothing was given to reintroduce mage to night elf... you just logged in one day after buying cata and poof, you can be night elf mage... it is fine for other classes/races like dwarfs getting shaman, they live underground, after some time they develop closer relation with nature and develop a skill to use shamanistic spells... its fine for tauren, they spend time outside under the sun, after some time they develop a skill to use the light... its not fine for a race that was all about mages, then banished all the mages because they were problematic and forbids to use arcane twisting, and then all of a sudden they are allowed back, without a word about it... its just dumb and lazy.

It would be understandable to reintroduce mage to night elf society now, after or during legion... it was nonsense back then in cata. Now we have a back bone about it, Forandis is the key here... not some garbage faction that enslaves demons and sucks their power... those are warlocks, not mages. Blizzard can say what ever they want, that doesn't mean it makes sense.
16/05/2017 09:16Posted by Beher
I honestly don't understand how can you write wall of text saying completely nothing and giving wrong or partial info.

We are given parts of that story in vanilla while doing dire maul, questing in many zones, gaining Shen'dralar rep, doing stuff for bronze dragons... then in TBC parts of the story reveal through several quests... after that in WotLK there is nothing... then in Cata there is tons of lore related to war of the ancients, even entire dungeon is reconstructed allowing players to literally participate in final events of the war. Few small mentions in MoP and nothing in WoD... legion goes a step further and elaborates all those events in details through Forandis and Suramar...

because i've been following this game from the start.. when blizzard focus on a racial group this is what you get. Night elves you get their whole arcane history, wardens, demon hunters, even the night elf empire returns in the nightborne

when blood elves were a focus, you got so much stuff on them, they were part of every facet of the expansion. You know blizzard is focusing on a race when they are a key part of an expansion.

The gnomes having a new starting area in Cata was some gnome attention, but gnomes have never been a focus.

The Well of Eternity instance was to showcase the Dragon/Demon Soul - not to tell you the night elf story. 1 dungeon does not consittute a focus. Night elves and every race have shown up as part of something every now and then, that doesn't mean they are a focus. When you get the blood elf/draenei/orc treatment of TBC that's a focus

when you get the Pandaren treatment of MoP that's a focus.
The orcish treatment of WoD - thats a focus
Because the Tauren had a feature in Legion, MoP and WotLK through the highmountain/Yaungol and Taunka did not mean they were a focus for that expansion, they got some exposure, some lore.

Night elf lore hasn't really progressed much in 14 years, cataclysm got an update with every other race when they re-did the start zones, but they have never got even secondary notice like Dwarves, Trolls, Tauren, Forsaken who keep popping up as major players in a patch, zone or raid or several - neither have they been centre stage like Blood elves, Draenei, Orcs, Humans, Goblins, Pandaren and Worgen were until now in Legion. But they have had more exposure than gnomes

16/05/2017 09:16Posted by Beher
Why is it hard for you to understand that nothing was given to reintroduce mage to night elf... you just logged in one day after buying cata and poof, you can be night elf mage...
because I actually read Wolfheart the novel, i also followed the pre-quest appearance of the highborne Mordant Evenshade in WotLK 3.4 and the initial plans blizzard had for the highborne to tell the world about Deathwing hinting at them and the night elves playing a larger role in Cata, which was switched out for the Shaman and Thrall since it was more to do with the elements

yes they never expanded on the whole thing.. so i agree with you in part only in the sense that more should have been given. they changed directions, because they said one thing, and it never materialized, I assume its because in development someone pointed out that Thrall was a better candidate than Malfurion, and shaman should be centrestage as we visit the elemntal plains, night elves have nothing to do with that, so the focus was switched and we never saw more development on this.

But wolfheart wrote some on it.

16/05/2017 09:16Posted by Beher
it is fine for other classes/races like dwarfs getting shaman, they live underground, after some time they develop closer relation with nature and develop a skill to use shamanistic spells... its fine for tauren, they spend time outside under the sun, after some time they develop a skill to use the light... its not fine for a race that was all about mages, then banished all the mages because they were problematic and forbids to use arcane twisting, and then all of a sudden they are allowed back, without a word about it... its just dumb and lazy.

I don't think its dumb, it may have been handled a bit lazily, but that essay before was specifically designed to show you how the return of the arcane was going to play a part in the night elf story .. and we woudl have seen it sooner if night elves were a focus like blood elves were in TBC or humans/orcs in WotLK or gobbos/worgen in Cata

That's the whole reason i wrote an essay on blizzard giving attention - it determines how much you show. If you are not really developing the night elf story you're not going to show the changes that are happening as a result of the events of WC3.

REmember how blizzard operate, they focus on one thing and do things in relation to that thing. Night elves you see in TBC are not on night elf business, they are on Cenarion circle business to highlight efforts and show players more about the outland environment.. nothing about night elf society is develpoed there at all, in fact nothing was shown from classic's introduction until Cataclysm.

Cataclysm was the first look at night elf society since its wow debut. and that was the first time they continued the story of the group itself. CAmeo appearances is not continuing a race's story.

And my whole point is that you should have seen the arcane returning, and failure to do so probably meant you didn't quite get the night elf story. They told you the reason they banned magic was to stop the legion returning. Now the legion returns - what do you think that means about the ban? THey told you night elves were a very magical group, and they used arcane moonwells. yes the moonwells are the waters of the well of eternity and they are seaid to be full of its power, just not utilising it for spells which is what the blood elves and high elves find so contemptible, they have all this power and they've done nothing impressive or progressive (by High elf standards) with it.

This is all old lore, the arcane has always been there, and the very specific reasons for its use, the major one of hte legions return, the minor one of addiction have been there from inception. You are also supposed to see that the night elves view life differently now than when they did before the sundering. They don't view building a great civilization or empire as important any more. they've had to live without all those conveniences and they've made their peace with it content with nature. Well a lot of them are. The whole Fandral STaghelm thing showed you there are enough night elves who agree the ngiht elves should be leading the world and guiding the lesser races ensuring they don't get into trouble.

Night elves are forced out of isolation by the events of the legion invasion in Wc3 and now have no power to repel others and there is no neeed too. The whole reason approaching Hyjal by entering Ashenvale forests commanded death on sight if you were a stranger was because they wanted to stop you discovering the well and magic and remove the chance of drawing the legion back.. something they believed only powerful magic wielding of the well could accomplish.

Hide the well , and block of any access to it and you remove the possibility of the legions return. watch out for it diligently, it's too big a risk to the world and you'd be fine. That's what the long vigil is all about.

It was about watching against the legions return, safeguarding the world from that possibility. this is why giving up magic was a sacrifice to many even though malfurion believed they were better people for it given how decadent highborne led society under Azshara had become in the final days.. he may not have understood the problems of arcane addiction as well as Farodin, but he didn't need to, having magic like that Azshara's highborne couldn't cope morally, and they were better off without that.

But the 3rd war changes all of that. Others learnt magic without using a well, (yes high elves taught humans, humans had no well) Night elves probably didn't now about this back in isolation having only known a world where great magic was only possible via the well, they probably would not have considered the low key magic of modern mages as serious enough - which is probably why eastern kingdoms didn't register on their radar and the Sunwell's pwoer was properly masked by the runestones in Quel'thalas, neither the legion, nor anyone outside Quel'thalas' borders and certainly not the druids a continent away could sense it.

Most blues were in isolations, and reds obviously didn't share the same paranoia on magic as Krasus often enjoyed spending time with high elves and humans. Besides it was Azshsar's highborne that had the problem, not these guys, the high elf society was a new one, very different, responsible by far about this, besides, it was likely too late by the time he found out about it to do anything but to guide them and help them. THe council of Tirisfal was already set up by the high elves to deal with the prolbem and prevent another invasion.

We know it failed, everything failed, the night elves successfully carried out their vigil, demons return was not on account of their actions, and when they did return they met them in battle and overthrew them a second time. However they were not expelled by destorying the well and obviously the need to stop using arcane magic becomes pointless .. now we're heading to places like outland hunting the demons and its not magic usage by an evil corrupt empress that would bring them back.

THe magic using races of Azeroth are all heavily regulated and watched by magic users, exactly the high elven vision , a ban on magic accomplishes nothing for the world exceptdeny the night elves of a valuable resource for using against new threats and any time the legion find a way back.

Frankly i'm surprised they're not using the well of eternity yet, probably still frightened that they might do another Azshara, but there is no need not to anymore.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum