Bosses are too 'easy'.

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so easy you haven't even cleared lfr, noob
@OP - This is my opinion and I agree with what you're saying. So what we have is a system designed for this type of game and it's quite traditional. Each boss is in charge of their own sector, their own little army and play their own role in the overarching intentions of the antagonist. You understand this sure, and it means we go from boss to boss until we climb up the chain to the big bad but what you're saying is:

"Where is the logic in each of these bosses, some of them actual gods and others elder gods fighting solo? They bring in some adds to help out but really they're much weaker divided like this. Why didn't any of the bosses in ICC all just band together with the LK at the end waiting for us? They could have easily taken us out without really breaking much of a sweat.."

So my answer would be: Sometimes the bosses are broken up for egotistical ones. The big boss telling his underlings to go sort out a job while he progresses with something else. Asserting his authority and confident that if it comes to it, he can sort the problem himself.

Others require stalling. So in Ulduar for example, we are stalled by many boss types so the elder god can... do what it is that elder gods do I guess...

Logic implies all bosses be in the same room together, or some hiding away for opportune moments to attack, while we're fighting another boss, right?

The game would be signifacntly more challenging in theory, but they'd have to then change how bosses work so it is possible for us to win so that means each boss would have to be weaker for this to work otherwise if they retained their power as the lore states, we wouldn't have a chance in hell of winning. Then the game wouldn't exist either. The story would be:

"Ah Khadgar, please help us as Sargeras is now forcing us to open a cheap pop music store to appeal to the masses as it would be great for business. Nooo!"


You see? Because the big bads have already taken over and are now in control and we cannot fight back :p
They're like digital pinatas. Keep hitting until you get some candy.

You're mistaken if you ever thought raid bosses were meant to be a test of combat skill - that is PvP.
13/05/2017 16:49Posted by Jito
The Oculus is a good example,

Because everyone really liked that dungeon.
lol lfr only raider who thinks raiding is easy, Ahahahaa
13/05/2017 17:19Posted by Annaconda
having played a game doesn't mean you have the intellect to analyze it and give feedback, plus this guy did progression in the past and WoW's main attraction doesn't change much
not to mention most hardcore WoW players I talked to never tried other MMO-s seriously, which -from my experience- makes their feedback worthless because they have literally no clue how broken WoW's content is as they've never seen it work

/thread

But, as usual, I see that we have these "mythic raiders" who enjoy to comment in a such way that they will always imply that : if you don't raid mythic you have no clue.

Well... I disagree. But they will disagree and this conversation that could have been quite interesting at some point have already turned into an e-peen contest, so.... I'm out bye !
Only one thing bothers me about that tbh: When the main characters just stand and wait for us to beat the boss. I mean, look at Chromatic Anomaly. Khadgar, Thalyssra and the Kirin Tor army just stand there eating popcorn, watching us do their work for them. I'd personally like that we have more interaction with the main characters during the fights, when they are actually there.
13/05/2017 19:43Posted by Lswindrunner
How about making an encounter where the trash is actually on the outside, and if you can't get past the trash within a time limit, you don't even get to see any bosses as they've used that time to 'make their getaway'.
(Think Sylv and her oft talked of 'meat shield' here, a group wouldn't even make it into UC if they can't get past the 'meat shield')


Trash clearing is never particularly interesting in wow. It's called "trash" for a reason :P. I get it that you're trying to make it more into a "realistic experience", but realistically we just like the battle between the main heroes.

13/05/2017 19:43Posted by Lswindrunner
Progression, wf 'races' etc. I'd make them longer. Eg, if you can't get past the trash, that's your attempt for the week gone.

Longer doesn't mean better. It would be sheer time gating, the kind people hate.
We're not actors in a movie, trying to make it "realistic". We're gamers. We like fighting bosses, not trash. Your idea with limited tries has been done before, but only for a very specific encounter or achievement - and that was for a reason. To limit tries per week means to overall nerf bosses, otherwise a lot of people wouldn't get to ever kill them. I wiped @400 times on Archimonde mythic. Sometimes tries are 1-2 minutes when you're just starting progression. Sometimes you try things just to learn and call wipes. By your "idea", raids could last 30 minutes, in which you spent 10 wipes. That's hardly an appealing idea. Also by your idea, my guild would have needed 40 weeks to kill archimonde. GL raiding one boss for 10 months, for 30 mins-1 hour weekly.
I don't see why you guys are arguing with LSwindrunner.

The guy literally suggests things that he would never do.

He's a LFR hero that hasn't even finished LFR.

It's Lswindrunner, pls guys.

Stop feeding him.

His ideas will never happen.

If they ever happen, I would quit the game.

As would most people.

Bad ideas are bad.

Kthx.
13/05/2017 11:08Posted by Saphiramoon
13/05/2017 10:39Posted by Thyri
It's not difficulty, it's just bad design.

More like bad RNG - and yes, it's not real difficulty, just a case of "stars aligning badly and nothing to do about it, try again".
Other than that, I can't really explain the concept of difficulty in mythic raiding. One side is the hurdle of organizing 20+ people on a schedule - but that's another kind of difficulty. Another is to optimize as best as you can your setup - some bosses are significantly harder if you have too many ranged or too many melees - again, not exactly skill related, but still something you need to work around. Then each individual needs to learn to perform their role at a rather high % while dealing with the mechanics - and this is where most normal raiders break - multitasking. In theory it's just a case of repeating until learning - but some people just take a long time to learn - if they ever do. If it was easy, more people would raid mythic (I know the schedule is also a big stop). Mythic raiding is like a complex dance routine: you can say it's just a number of moves that separately are not difficult, yet performing it close to perfection takes both time and learning. People that know it already make it look simple, but until you try yourself, you don't really know how long it takes to form the muscle memory.

For me, difficulty should be in quick decisions. If you have few seconds to decide what to do to deal with mechanic - it's pretty easy. If you have only 1-2 seconds to decide then it's starting to be hard. This is why I loved Ulduar, peak of difficulty for me. I did whole HFC mythic and the hardest boss for me was Tyrant (and on 2nd place - Gorefiend), the rest was either easy or PRAISE-THE-RNG. On tyrant I had to move and keep people alive. THIS was hard to me as hpally. Archimonde was easy for me, everything was told by addons or was simple/counterable by immunities.
14/05/2017 09:11Posted by Verdill
For me, difficulty should be in quick decisions. If you have few seconds to decide what to do to deal with mechanic - it's pretty easy. If you have only 1-2 seconds to decide then it's starting to be hard. This is why I loved Ulduar, peak of difficulty for me. I did whole HFC mythic and the hardest boss for me was Tyrant (and on 2nd place - Gorefiend), the rest was either easy or PRAISE-THE-RNG. On tyrant I had to move and keep people alive. THIS was hard to me as hpally. Archimonde was easy for me, everything was told by addons or was simple/counterable by immunities.


Different classes have different weak/strong points. What feels easy for you might not feel easy for somebody else, and the other way around.
14/05/2017 08:36Posted by Tahamine

Stop feeding him.


Your comment fed me, thx.
14/05/2017 08:36Posted by Tahamine
I don't see why you guys are arguing with LSwindrunner. The guy literally suggests things that he would never do. He's a LFR hero that hasn't even finished LFR.
It's Lswindrunner, pls guys. Stop feeding him. His ideas will never happen. If they ever happen, I would quit the game. As would most people. Bad ideas are bad.

Kthx.


Why must you make a newline between each sentence :/
14/05/2017 05:54Posted by Thyri
But, as usual, I see that we have these "mythic raiders" who enjoy to comment in a such way that they will always imply that : if you don't raid mythic you have no clue.


You have no right to speak about difficulty if you have not even step foot in the Heroic mode of the raid, where things actually start becoming a problem for teams. Normal mode is LFR for guilds. Heroic mode is where things get interesting.

You don't need to raid Mythic to "have a clue". It helps, for sure. If you have experience in something, it means you're better suited to the task, it's why jobs ask for experience, or why PuG groups ask for curve.

If you have complain that Raiding is too easy, however, and you have not stepped foot into the difficult raiding, then I have some news. There is bigger and better things out there. You simply need to seek them out.
14/05/2017 12:02Posted by Valrysha
You have no right to speak about difficulty if you have not even step foot in the Heroic mode of the raid, where things actually start becoming a problem for teams. Normal mode is LFR for guilds. Heroic mode is where things get interesting.

I agree with this. But it's important to know exactly where the boundaries lie.

For example, if I say that Gul'dan has too high dps requirements on Mythic mode, then there is a lot more merit to my statement if I actually have personal experience with Mythic mode Gul'dan.

But if I say that Skorpyron is a silly boss, because why would there be a giant skorpion inside a pristine city, and why not use the opportunity to have a more lore-rich boss with actual character and dialogue instead of an overgrown scorpion model from Hellfire Peninsula?!
I don't need to have done Mythic mode raiding in order to make that statement, because it's the same silly scorpion in LFR as it is in Normal and Heroic and Mythic. Sure, the mechanics of the fight evolve a bit as you go up in difficulty, but none of that detracts from the fact that it is always a silly scorpion you're fighting!

Most of the points brought up in this thread so far doesn't have anything to do with difficulty as it pertains to Mythic mode tuning or anything like that. It's observations in regards to general design and development.

For example:
14/05/2017 07:04Posted by Uruk
Only one thing bothers me about that tbh: When the main characters just stand and wait for us to beat the boss. I mean, look at Chromatic Anomaly. Khadgar, Thalyssra and the Kirin Tor army just stand there eating popcorn, watching us do their work for them. I'd personally like that we have more interaction with the main characters during the fights, when they are actually there.

This is an amazing observation. It has nothing to do with Mythic mode difficulty. It has everything to do with the design of the encounter, I.e. NPC involvement or not. You don't need to have done Mythic mode raiding in order to come to the conclusion that a boss encounter can be more cool if it involves the lore-iconic heroes like Khadgar, Thalyssra, and so on.

Don't turn everything into a discussion on Epeen in regards to encounter difficulty and player accomplishments when it's not.
But if I say that Skorpyron is a silly boss, because why would there be a giant skorpion inside a pristine city, and why not use the opportunity to have a more lore-rich boss with actual character and dialogue instead of an overgrown scorpion model from Hellfire Peninsula?!


The Scorpion isn't inside the city. It's in the catacombs. You find very different things in the sewers of a city, rather than the the overground.
14/05/2017 12:47Posted by Valrysha
The Scorpion isn't inside the city. It's in the catacombs. You find very different things in the sewers of a city, rather than the the overground.

I'm not really looking for an explanation to make it sensible.

I'm merely posing the question: Is the encounter designed the best way it can be?

When you heard of Nighthold the first time and saw Scorpyron as the first boss, was your immediate thought: "Hell yeah! Amazing job Blizzard! This is the absolute best you could have come up with for the first boss of this new raid!"

In my opinion, choosing to fill a boss slot with a generic scorpion model is a waste of opportunity. It has no significant character background, no relevance to the story, and as an introduction to the final chapter of a major story arc it is a huge anti-climax.

I wager Blizzard can do better in regards to general encounter design.

But if you think having a generic scorpion as a raid boss is a job well done Blizzard, then that's of course your opinion.
14/05/2017 12:54Posted by Jito
In my opinion, choosing to fill a boss slot with a generic scorpion model is a waste of opportunity. It has no significant character background, no relevance to the story, and as an introduction to the final chapter of a major story arc it is a huge anti-climax.


Not every boss needs a full fleshed out backstory of how and why bla bla.

Skorpyron: Scorpion infused with the power of the nightwell and tamed to guard the catacombs of the nighthold. Done. Nothing more needed. Scorpyron is what guarm was to ToV. A beast doing his masters bidding.

The model on the other hand could have been made a bit more "crystaly" tho. You actually seeing his skin falling off during the encounter and being reapplied after the stun phase.
14/05/2017 13:00Posted by Kretias
Not every boss needs a full fleshed out backstory of how and why bla bla.

Why not?

Let's take some of the greatest encounters Blizzard have designed: Yogg-Saron, The Lich King, etc..

And then there's Skorpyron.

Let's say you have a raid with 10 encounters. What's the dream scenario here? Well obviously that you get as many cool encounters like Yogg-Saron and The Lich King as possible, and as few encounters as Skorpyron as possible.

Why shouldn't you be critical of a boss like Skorpyron when you know Blizzard are more than capable of creating something that is far better?!

I mean, personally I always hope Blizzard creates more raids like Ulduar and less raids like Highmaul. The former has high production value, the latter has not. Sure, all the bosses in Highmaul can be explained, and they work fine as encounters. But from a player perspective, a raid like Ulduar is a way more satisfying game experience, because effort has gone into the design.

And likewise, a boss like Skorpyron is not what anyone is hoping to get out of a limited amount of raid bosses in a new tier. So why not point out what's lackluster about it?! God forbid Blizzard listens!

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