The Netherlight Crucible And You

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Hey guys!

So, after yesterday's Q&A, it's become apparent that there's still some confusion about the Netherlight Crucible and how it works. We've been keeping an eye on your discussions about the topic, and wanted to give some explanations where we can, as well as open up a thread for any additional questions you may have.

Q: How do the Relic "talents" unlock?

A: As your Artifact increases in level (by spending Artifact Power), your Relic slots will level up as well. When you first unlock the Crucible, you'll have access to the first additional trait (a +5 increase to your Artifact's item level) in each slot. The second row unlocks at Artifact level 60, 63, and 66 (for the left, center, and right Relic slots respectively), and the third and final row unlocks at Artifact level 69, 72, and 75. This should all be pretty apparent when you look at those slots in-game, but may not be showing clearly via datamined info.

Q: What did you mean by "it can't double roll a trait"?

A: Just that you will never be able to upgrade a Relic to increase the same Artifact trait twice. If your Relic already has a bonus rank of Wrath of the Ashbringer on it, that trait will not be one of the three options presented in the bottom row of the Crucible's upgrade tree.

In other words, there's no risk of having your Wrath of the Ashbringer relic be "ruined" by not rolling a second bonus to Wrath of the Ashbringer, because that could never have happened in the first place. However, if you get a relic without Wrath of the Ashbringer, there's now a chance that it'll gain it from the Crucible.

Additionally, those three options will always be unique; it won't, for example, give you the "choice" between Deflection, Deflection, or Deflection. Aside from making sure you always have options, this means that your odds of having your favorite trait appear on a Relic you'd otherwise have discarded are actually pretty decent.

Q: How do the ranks for the first two rows work?

A: There are no such ranks. We think this is coming from some confusion about how the Netherlight Crucible is showing up in datamining, versus how it actually operates in-game. Once you've unlocked a row in the Crucible, you just select the option you like, and that's it - there's no additional leveling up of those options beyond that.

For those peeking into the data (or anyone else who might be curious): this is because of how we built the system to allow the unlockable effects to stack between each relic. It's just a subtle behind-the-scenes optimization on our end.

Hopefully that will help clear the air about how the Netherlight Crucible works, but we're sure you have more questions, so ask away and we'll do our best to answer what we can! We'll aim to provide an update sometime next week. Thanks!
Will those three options be fix to one specific relic or will they change if i would replace the relic with the sameone just 5 ilvl higher for example?

If they are fix to each relic, will we be able to see what three options we get before puting the relic in?
05/08/2017 02:51Posted by Zulonk
will we be able to see what three options we get before puting the relic in?

This is a key question. If we don't see what options the relic has before we slot it in, we can't know if the relic is even worth equipping (or even rolling "need") over the previous relic. I'm not gonna be replacing a good relic with a bad relic just because it might be good.
Yeah the 4th window in netherlight crucible UI is a preview window as far as I can tell allowing you see the bonus before equiping the relic
Does slotting a relic into crucible remove the "trade" timer making it perma-soulbound?

Let's imagine a scenario. A relic drops in guild master looter raid setting. Player A is awarded the relic because it's a small upgrade for him. He goes to crucible and sees the 3 trait options are all poor, 2 defensive traits and the weakest dps trait. Let's say a Havoc Demon Hunter gets offered traits "Deceiver's Fury", "Overwhelming Power" and "Illidari Knowledge".

Now this relic is not a dps upgrade because losing a better trait from the previous relic is a dps loss. Player B could have used that relic for an offspec, while Player A has no interest in utilizing this relic any more, he's gonna vendor it because it's not a dps upgrade.

Can player A still give the relic back to player B after checking the crucible outcome?
05/08/2017 04:25Posted by Felisenda
Does slotting a relic into crucible remove the "trade" timer making it perma-soulbound?

Let's imagine a scenario. A relic drops in guild master looter raid setting. Player A is awarded the relic because it's a small upgrade for him. He goes to crucible and sees the 3 trait options are all poor, 2 defensive traits and the weakest dps trait. Let's say a Havoc Demon Hunter gets offered traits "Deceiver's Fury", "Overwhelming Power" and "Illidari Knowledge".

Now this relic is not a dps upgrade because losing a better trait from the previous relic is a dps loss. Player B could have used that relic for an offspec, while Player A has no interest in utilizing this relic any more, he's gonna vendor it because it's not a dps upgrade.

Can player A still give the relic back to player B after checking the crucible outcome?


Playing Havoc in 7.3 with that T21. GETTING LOOT as Havoc with current T21 xD
Why is it better to be forced into fishing for a relic with your two best traits now instead of one?

Currently I can simply ditch a relic with a bad initial trait. Crucible will now apparently force me to hearth out of the raid, check the additional talent and - unless you have a warlock in your group - go back to the raid before I know if a relic is a possible upgrade. Is your entire QA team locked up somewhere and you guys are not letting them out to play?

That doesn't even cover that for quite a few specs the difference between the best trait and the worst can be a difference of 30+ relic ilvl with current values.
The crucible makes you _feel_ like you can make a bad relic into one that is "not as bad", but since you would need to compare it to one that has your two best traits, it actually has the capability of creating relics that are even worse than now.

With current trait values a relic that has rg+(si/fb/swipe) is a possible outcome. That would be beaten by a rip+rake relic even if the RG one would be 60ilvl higher.

Any relic with RG on it is never desirable as feral, since you could have a damage increasing trait instead. Just because you implement a system that is designed to give players the feeling of making it better, does not make that fact go away.

The Crucible accomplishes two things:
- it makes the difference between bad and good luck even worse
- it gives you the _feeling_ that you can do something about it

You made the same mistake with relics as you did with legendarys. Throughput and QoL should never have taken up the same slots. Slapping a dirty Band-Aid on it is not going to help.

[edit]

05/08/2017 02:33Posted by Lore
Hey guys!

So, after yesterday's Q&A, it's become apparent that there's still some confusion about the Netherlight Crucible and how it works.


No !@#$ Sherlock. You implement another layer of %^-*ing RNG into an expansion that is infested by way too much of it already. You give no information on it at all and you wonder why people look at datamining fragments and come to possibly wrong conclusions? Does that seriously surprise you? Seriously?

If you want to avoid that, you need to give people a rundown of new features and how they are supposed to work when you put them on the ptr. And by that I don't mean a glorified ad for it, I mean a technical view on it.
I have a couple of questions,

1. If I looted the exact same relic twice, will I have the same traits options in the netherlight crucible or is it random? If it is random then we will still be farming the relic with best trait on the hope that we get our 2nd best trait in the weapon. I would suggest as a way to prevent this to have a relic with utility trait always give a boost trait and vise versa.

2. Is there a mechanism to change the points I have chosen or is it like a talent tree where I can just freely change at any time?
As my guilds master looter I can tell you right now that this is going to be absolutely miserable for me.
Posted by Lore on the US boards: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20758616309#post-7

TLDR:

Before the patch, if you get a relic that doesn't have the trait you want, you throw it away.

After the patch, if you get a relic that doesn't have the trait you want, you can plug it into the Netherlight Crucible and maybe get it anyway.

That's about all there is to it!


You don't actually understand, that there is not only a single best trait you want, but there is always a second strongest one?

Just to reiterate what I said before:

Currently you fish for a relic with one specific trait. If you don't get it, you can easily grasp if it's an upgrade or not.

With Crucible you will fish for Relics that have your two best traits, which makes it even more grindy and frustrating than the current system, because the relics you actually want to get are even more rare. On top of that there doesn't seem to be a way of actually seeing if a new drop would be an upgrade in the field.

This system is not interesting, it doesn't enhance quality of life, it is not intuitive to understand, it makes it impossible to judge if something is an upgrade unless you leave the raid and it puts an even higher emphasis on RNG than the current one.

I simply cannot see a single positive aspect of the crucible in a MULTIPLAYER game. The system would be annoying, but acceptable in a singleplayer game, but in any competetive multiplayer game (you compete for raidslots etc) this is simply not going to be fun.

[edit] I hate not being able to post in the US boards and quoting is seriously messed up ...
i don't get it... all i see is more inconvenience and annoyance... how is this better than reforging?
you also said you removed reforging because people couldn't use the item right away, they had to go and reforge their gear...
this does even worse... you get the item, don't know what it has...get out of the raid, go to crucible, see that item is bad, come back to the raid, asking refund from raid leader and cursing blizzard for screwing you.
this is horrible
Please do not introduce more RNG into our relics. I do not want to have to check the crucible every time to actually be able to tell if a relic is an upgrade or not. I don't want to have to leave the raid after a bosskill to hopefully be able to tell whether I can use the relic or not (and potentially you'll have to do that multiple times if multiple people have to go check) instead of doing the trash and moving on to the next boss.

Please do not introduce RNG into yet another part of the game that does not need RNG.
This is all fine IF the relic comes from a source where it is not tradeable to begin with - weekly m+ chest for example.

BUT: relics dropping in raids or m+ runs just have to explicitly tell ALL bonuses they provide in order to make a decision whether it is an upgrade or not, right on the spot. Since there are still traits that are worth tens of weapon ilvl, I need to know when master looting a boss what traits a certain relic has. If you can't think of a solution for that, scrap the idea of the crucible.

Please, try to give the impression that you actually still play your game. Less rng would help.
05/08/2017 10:11Posted by Reeka
I have a couple of questions,

1. If I looted the exact same relic twice, will I have the same traits options in the netherlight crucible or is it random?

I copied the same character twice and withot changing the relics I got different traits in the crucible. So the traits (and the passives in the second row) you get in the crucible appear to be random.

05/08/2017 10:11Posted by Reeka

2. Is there a mechanism to change the points I have chosen or is it like a talent tree where I can just freely change at any time?

As of now, the choices in the crucible are permament (you get a confirmation window saying that your choice can't be undone).

I also read in another read that the preview window for relics in the crucible makes the previewed relic bound to you. Not sure if this applies to the ability to trade dropped items during the time limit, but I would guess so...
Still a bad system but that you if you got a trait on a relic you cant get that trait again is good i guess, makes its little less punishing rng.
This is a really odd and unelegant system. Whats the point?
This is a system to force us farming wat mmorpg has always as prio. But it doesnt matter wat item level is it right?

Also RNG is removed now?
Deciding who a relic should go to now will be an absolute nightmare of variables to consider.

Please, think of the poor lootmasters. They don't deserve this.

If this system is implemented, there will be so many layers of RNG for relics that its gonna go full Diablo and become almost impossible to optimize

1) Relic has to drop
2) Relic has to drop at good warforge level
3) Relic has to have correct tier 2 traits (650 mastery/avoidance is ridiculously powerful compared to 30K healing over 6 seconds if you take damage, and I'm sure there are gonna be big disparities between the throughput traits because balancing is hard)
4) Relic has to have correct tier 3 traits (can be the difference of anywhere from 15 to 50 relic ilvls)
5) Tier 3 trait has to be in the correct position as well, considering you want to pick the best tier 2 trait

All of this is not gonna be super important for casual players, but for people who like to progress mythic actually getting a really good relic with the crucible and optimizing the gear to meet your overtuned boss gear checks (we can't all stack 5 rogues) is going to be ridiculous. And considering how great the leap in power can be from one set of traits to another its not even comparable to the current system of "this guy got 5 ilvl more and a socket, lucky him".

The traits either need some serious rebalancing or you need to reconsider everything about this system. Preferably the latter.

To give you an example of how silly this system can be, I copied my character twice

On the first character, my tier 3 traits were Quick shot, Unerring Arrows and some other trash trait. Those two traits are both great and worth 15-20 relic ilvls.

On the second character, my tier 3 traits were 3% multishot damage, disengage damage reduction and turtle heal. They are worth absolutely nothing and thus the relic becomes significantly devalued.

How do you propose to balance this? It might make some people feel good when they get a great trait setup but its gonna make just as many people feel like !@#$ when they get a relic that should be an upgrade but upon hearthing back and checking the crucible discover that they get awful traits in tier 2 and tier 3. Even straight ilvl upgrades with the same base trait will be thrown into the bin with the crucible in play.
rng gear rng right stats rng fury rng crit now rng relic with bis trait with bis/good traits from this crucible thingie, just no man, enough is enough, no more rng, had enough of it in this xpac for a life time
This system is badly thought out, and I think as usually is the case, most ptr feedback will be ignore or not responded to and hot fixes applied after it goes live.

With regards to reforging, a game dev once said it was removed as it disrupted game play in raids, as players often went off to reforge. This system I think, as it stands, has the potential to be more disruptive.

Basically it's just another feature to contribute to the "ant farm" ideology. While the idea itself may be good in essence, the implementation will no doubt be poor. Yes, that is speculation. But based on experience.

They will not listen, because if they did, they would have returned reforging ages ago. But that loses control over how we build.
Personally, I don't like that how at 920 I have the same % stats as I did at 850 and that the gears are deliberately stat picked to force choices of gears onto classes.

By the information so far given, I see this as being no different although it could be promising if ptr feedback is actually given some credit and maybe tried out before live.

And in general, having read through the cherry picked Q and A's, while there might be one or two golden nuggets amongst those turds, I can't help having an overall feeling that what I do now before the patch or what I have done leading upto it is slightly being devalued in some way.

The "clean slate" start for each patch needs to be re thought.

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