No BM damage buff?

7.3 PTR Feedback
BM is abit lack lustre, especially in mythic raiding. Many were not impressed by the 4% damage buff, but at least it showed intent. The buff has now been reverted, with no explanation offered.

Please explain to me rationale behind this, when other classes and specs like ww monks, ele shamans and ret paladins have been buffed?
There are a few specializations (including Beast Mastery) that had some buffs removed or reduced in the latest 7.3 release candidate. Those buffs were added to the PTR to help adjust for the additional 15 item levels your Artifact Weapon will gain from the Netherlight Crucible, as some specs currently get more of an overall effectiveness increase from item level than others.

Since the Netherlight Crucible won't be available immediately when 7.3 launches, these buffs have been removed temporarily from the latest release candidate build. They will be re-added via hotfix a couple weeks after release, once the Crucible can be unlocked.

In the future, we hope to find a better solution for the disparity in effectiveness that weapon ilevel has between specs, but that won't be in 7.3.
but, why?

you guys know that the weaponilvl scaling for bm is next to nothing.
this will put MM even more ahead
you just got your answer from lore be happy xD
Hello,

What about pvp ?
Are you aware that our bm spec is definitely non viable at competitive pvp?
Are you aware that my biggest shot matchs to the smallest from a dh? (not close).
I'm playing bm in pvp since something like 11 years, I'm rly not use to complaining, but with all the love of the world, it's impossible to be competitive in pvp. (I'm btw multiglad, and pvp coach with more than 600 hours given)

There are a lot of issues about bm spec.

Why our mend pets doesn't purge root, nova, etc anymore ? When mage has retard nova proc, more or less on demand.

Why scorpide sting when dh has instant cyclone, or war has duel. Do you see the power difference between those talents?
At least give us back tranquilizing shot instead of scorpide sting.

About our kitting? Doest it exists? Others spec have freedom (pure freedom or with cheetah aspect).

You had reduce our armor, but we can't properly kit with only one desengage, what's your opinion?

At the last season, our artefact was close to be the most powerfull (because of nature damage), now, it's the most weak.

So much things to say, but just minding about this will already be great.

I'm french player, I should be understood, but forgive my mistakes.

Edit: you have removed twice our execution... come on. Imagine you do the same for warriors, funny right? It's not because our spec in pvp is not popular, that you have to make us disapear .
Thanks for joining in, Lore, but since BM is behind MM quite a bit, we need a buff NOW, that is then increased when the netherlight mess unlocks. Just compensating for the 5/10/15 artifact itemlevel more coming with the crucible unlocks isn't enough.
25/08/2017 04:52Posted by Aiylra
Thanks for joining in, Lore, but since BM is behind MM quite a bit, we need a buff NOW, that is then increased when the netherlight mess unlocks. Just compensating for the 5/10/15 artifact itemlevel more coming with the crucible unlocks isn't enough.


If BM is so bad for months, why does BM still have so high representation in raids?

Maybe because of god tier mobility, the best utility and soloing in the game and simple rotation?

If BM and MM will have even roughly equal dps, all MM will be forced to change their spec to BM.

Pls buff BM wisely.
25/08/2017 01:00Posted by Lore
There are a few specializations (including Beast Mastery) that had some buffs removed or reduced in the latest 7.3 release candidate. Those buffs were added to the PTR to help adjust for the additional 15 item levels your Artifact Weapon will gain from the Netherlight Crucible, as some specs currently get more of an overall effectiveness increase from item level than others.

Since the Netherlight Crucible won't be available immediately when 7.3 launches, these buffs have been removed temporarily from the latest release candidate build. They will be re-added via hotfix a couple weeks after release, once the Crucible can be unlocked.

In the future, we hope to find a better solution for the disparity in effectiveness that weapon ilevel has between specs, but that won't be in 7.3.


I'm pretty sure the % buff we're talking about would've just about put us even with MM on a single target. Now the fact that it's there to "compensate" for a bonus 15 item levels isn't really good enough. If we look at item level scaling between BM and MM, MM gains about twice the benefit per weapon item level as BM does simply because BM doesn't scale nearly enough with weapon damage.

If the difference is 5 - 10% today, that gap is only going to get wider with the Nether Crucilble. If our pets scaled off weapon damage along with agility and mastery it would probably have been a reasonable fix, but as it stands right now, they don't. Now I totally see why pets can't scale of weapon damage, as it doesn't make any sense, but it's easy to pinpoint where the flaw in this reasoning lies.

Now the disparity on a single target would be okay if we weren't completely robed of any reasonable cleave, but alas, MM is even further ahead there. I for one see BM as the single target spec, based on how clumsy our pets are when moving around and how centered our toolkit is on hitting that one enemy. I'd be perfectly fine with seeing no changes (or even nerfs) to barrage, volley, beast cleave, multishot and stomp as long as we got a reasonable buffs to frenzy, cobra shot and kill command to at least bring us in line with what MM can do on a single target.

Something I'd love to see is Barrage being completely removed and replaced with Lynx Rush as it was thematically a lot better for BM. Seeing how heavily Legion has focused on "class fantasy" this truly puzzles me. And that could be a cleave ability which would scale off of our mastery alongside beast cleave, which for obvious reasons neither volley nor barrage do.

I honestly don't think we need to be competitive in every area, as we're still the most mobile ranged spec in the game with good utility, but being within touching distance of the other useful hunter spec on either single target OR cleave would be nice.
25/08/2017 11:55Posted by Floppybetty
I'm pretty sure the % buff we're talking about would've just about put us even with MM on a single target


It is the WoW way, one specc is always better then the other. MM will have it's moment and then it will switch to another spec.

Sames for mages, and every expansion people moan....does no one see the pattern?
25/08/2017 01:00Posted by Lore
There are a few specializations (including Beast Mastery) that had some buffs removed or reduced in the latest 7.3 release candidate. Those buffs were added to the PTR to help adjust for the additional 15 item levels your Artifact Weapon will gain from the Netherlight Crucible, as some specs currently get more of an overall effectiveness increase from item level than others.

Since the Netherlight Crucible won't be available immediately when 7.3 launches, these buffs have been removed temporarily from the latest release candidate build. They will be re-added via hotfix a couple weeks after release, once the Crucible can be unlocked.

In the future, we hope to find a better solution for the disparity in effectiveness that weapon ilevel has between specs, but that won't be in 7.3.


Is this a same bs you responded on US rogue thread? And does it actually read this? "There are some specs that are actually under-performing right now but we won't do a damn. Actually, we'll make them even more under-performing with Crucible and maybe then we will add a compensation boost that might not be strong enough as of now".

Better solution.. how about you balance relic traits within one spec so we are not forced to stick with 20-30 ilvl lower relics; which makes our overall wepapon ilvl even lower? A RNG Crucible crap is not going to solve this issue and I'm very sure you are PERFECTLY AWARE of this - just not going to admit it in public thread.

25/08/2017 15:13Posted by Sylvarn
It is the WoW way, one specc is always better then the other. MM will have it's moment and then it will switch to another spec.


Of course there will be better specs and worse specs. It's not possible to achieve 100% balance unless all classes and specs are exactly same. Yet there is something very wrong when out of 3 dps specs of pure dps class (read rogue) two are under-performing and 3rd is medicore at best.
so delete my char?
I have just retired my 930 hunter, this was after retiring my combat rogue, and enhance shaman, my destro lock and fire mage...

At this precise moment, I am fully sick of having to reroll to be competitive in order to mitigate blizzard ****ups, I pay to play, yet now it feels like I am paying to be messed around and not enjoy it anymore.

I rode the storm through cata when you rickrolled hunters, and you blindly ignored us for the whole expac and only acted when the top guilds benched all their hunters for blackhand,....and indeed the same when mythic guilds again started benching hunters in january...

https://imgur.com/j0xLDdK

Ring any bells yet?

This crap needs sorting now, because for a spec to be at the same ilevel as each other yet have nearly 200k difference in dps is absolutely outrageous,
Comments from some of our fellow BM hunters across the pond https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20758807131

Welldone manales for summing up our situation so eloquently.

Text below
Before I begin I'll be the first to admit I am irritated especially at the tone from Lores post as seen over in the EU here
- https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17616712224

Let's begin by discussing Beast Mastery has had an on going debate since Legion began going back to the Alpha about the direction the class was going needless to say there were a fair amount of people that were not happy with the mass pruning.

Beast Mastery 7.0 - 7.3

Lets Begin by discussing Beast Mastery, the spec that received a rather big overhaul and a second "pet" that does not function like a pet. as we jump back a bit starting with Emerald Nightmare

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10 ( 75th Percentile )
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#dataset=90 ( 90th Percentile )
The logs above are pre 7.1.5 and before the launch of Trial of Valor the spec itself was and still is crippled by Hati who suffers multiple pathing problems, delays from engaging into combat with the actual pet who response time is almost instant, and the artifact weapon has traits not working properly " Surge of the storm god random procs"
Emerald Nightmare 7.1.5

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#region=2 ( 75th percentile Also introduction of Mantle of Command pre change )

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#region=2&dataset=90 ( 90th percentile introduced Mantle of Command )

With 7.1.5 the game added a Legendary that became absolutely Mandatory that alleviated some of the playing issues but didn't solve any of the underlying mechanical issues this was bandaged in 7.2.5 when the Legendary was baked into the spec but the issues still remained. Now we get into Nighthold
Again as I did with Emerald Nightmare I will be look at 7.2 and 7.2.5 to show the variance with the spec

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11 ( 75th Percentile Pre Mantle change )
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#dataset=90 ( 90th Percentile Pre Mantle Change all three specs were right within common ground "note this didn't last )

do note that Mantle until 7.2.5 was Absolutely Mandatory along with the Belt for Beast Mastery dps as these legendaries helped to alleviate some of the underlying playing issues with the spec which are still prevelant even after the mantle change

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#region=3 ( 75th Percentile Post Mantle Change with new traits after thunderslash nerf )

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/11#region=3&dataset=90 ( 90th Percentile Post Mantle Change with new traits after Thunderslash nerf )

Do note that when 7.2.5 came out Mantle of Command was changed and its previous iteration was now made baseline for all Beast Mastery Hunters becoming a bandage fix for some of the other issues of the spec. this did not in anyway cover the poor AoE as Hati does not beast cleave for the full damage percent that a normal pet does, or the thunderslash nerf which even further lowered our AoE potential. With Tomb opening this did open up a different build which can become a bit RNG dependant as well as lead to even more focus starving if procs aren't there.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13 ( 75th Percentile Currently )
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#dataset=90 ( 90th Percentile Currently )

With tomb another build has opened up depending on how BM gear currently sims at which means running the 2 piece from Nighthold, and 4 piece from Tomb

with the two set from Nighthold being
When you use Bestial Wrath, All of your currently Summoned Dire Beasts gain 50% extra Damage for 15 Seconds
and the Tier from tomb being
Cobra Shot, Multi-Shot, And Kill Command increase the damage bonus of Bestial wrath by 1.5% for its remaining Duration
Cobra Shot, Multi-Shot, and Kill Command deal 15% increased damage while Bestial Wrath is active

So currently with the duration of Bestial Wrath being
15 seconds and now having 2 baseline dire beasts
1 charge of dire beast hits roughly 40k-90k excluding stomp as stomp is procing with in the first second of dire beast as seen within the screenshot here
http://i.imgur.com/DkLslRb.jpg - Stomp procing no where near the target resulting in lost damage

This doesn't include the bad pathing as seen here
http://i.imgur.com/g6lWwTk.jpg
which happens in other instances as well as despawning on Fallen Avatar
What can be done? What can Beast masters do or even the hunter community do as a whole to have something change as the netherlight crucible buff doesn't fix the situation our spec scales atrociously with item level due to how its designed.

TLDR the decline of the spec has been noticble through out the data collected by players and the lack of acknowledgement by Blizzard is disappointing. the comment made by Lore himself further backs up this point that they do not know how to fix the situation that was made with Beast Mastery other than a possible overhaul again.
all bm hunters delete chars.
and go open dh chars.

blizz wants to live a dk disaster.
I have to say I'm becoming tired of this. I'm sorry, I am not the one to whine on forums but... Please don't see it as an attack, I know you guys are trying but we have a problem and this is why we are here. To try to fix it. We want to tell you how we feel about this. And I know patience is a virtue, I've been patient for years when it came to balance and hotfixes. I've been patient in Cata when hunters were all over the place. I've been patient in Pandaria where it took weeks for us to finally be able to become reliable in raids. I've been patient in Draenor where I had to sub for updates because we had like 3 hotfixes per week just to make us matter again. But I just can't do this anymore, I'm sorry. I'm really tired.

I love my mobility, I love the fact I can help my team with mechanics but if this is the only reason BM hunters are getting into the teams then something is wrong here. Remember when MM was so bad it was doing like 40% of dps of other classes? Remember when BM suffered from various issues? Look at BM now. There are improvements but we're still not there.

So we got Hati. Cool idea but implementation is not so good. Pets get stuck, pets can't get to targets. abilities proc when pets are on Argus while the bosses are in Broken Shore. It is an issue since majority of my dps comes from pets. And Hati is the slowest raider ever. If people switched to targets as slowly as Hati does, I would bench them. Hati is the laziest team mate ever. I sometimes feel like people could portal to Dala and come back to the instance before Hati switches. And it is not even the top problem.

I want to play the spec I like and I feel like you force me to reroll. I don't want to reroll. Posters above clearly proved that there are multiple issues. Please fix it for us because we have been experiencing it every time an expansion or major patch is out. It is no longer about skills, it is about the things I can't change - the legendaries, the spec itself...

We are not asking to be OP, we're asking to be equal to other classes, we're asking for the same chance to have fun. You have theorycrafters that pinpoint the issues, they tell you exactly where the issues are becoming problems. I know you like feedback and there are people giving that. But I don't want to wait few weeks to be able to compete with others just because it is an easy fix. Easy things aren't always the best.

It feels in a way like we are being punished for playing a spec devs don't like. 10 years ago I chose hunter as my main. I think I have like 3 of them or something. I am not going to switch to another class just because it is a flavor of the month. I don't want to switch, I want to play BM hunter.

And don't get me wrong - I get it that balancing is not an easy job. I don't expect it to be. But you are telling me this:
They will be re-added via hotfix a couple weeks after release, once the Crucible can be unlocked.

So you're telling me, literally, that "your friends will have fun for couple of weeks and you will not because you are BM, sorry, but be patient" So what do you expect me to do for "couple of weeks"? Wait patiently? I did it in Panda, i did it in Cata. Can I PLEASE not be forced to do it again? Can hunters for once be a class that is not punished? It's killing the fun in the game for me, sorry. 10 years and I am thinking about switching the main I love to an alt I don't enjoy that much but it puts out so yeah.
I find it so amazing that they even bothered to hold it back until crucible comes out.

Its like - what if Bm just inches itself from rock bottom to second last?
OH NOOO THE HORROR
We cant have that!
Better postphone that minute bandaid asap.
25/08/2017 08:24Posted by Асдериэл
25/08/2017 04:52Posted by Aiylra
Thanks for joining in, Lore, but since BM is behind MM quite a bit, we need a buff NOW, that is then increased when the netherlight mess unlocks. Just compensating for the 5/10/15 artifact itemlevel more coming with the crucible unlocks isn't enough.


If BM is so bad for months, why does BM still have so high representation in raids?

Maybe because of god tier mobility, the best utility and soloing in the game and simple rotation?

If BM and MM will have even roughly equal dps, all MM will be forced to change their spec to BM.

Pls buff BM wisely.


It is a double edged sword. If we play BM we are soo far behind everyone else in dps it is laughable, yet we are able to move and do mechanics easier, but there are no fights were there is soo much movement that it makes BM any better. MM is simming higher on every fight in ToS mythic. So where does the BM mobility come into play? You are saying you will HAVE to play BM if we are doing similar dps, isnt it the same thing that BM hunters are facing now, on fights like Fallen avatar, where the dps check is soo large we are forced to play MM for fights like that, or be sat out due to not enough dps? BM arent asking to be be buffed soo much we are top dps but we are struggling to even keep up in any regards to dps. we should not be having to use tier pieces from 2 tiers ago to even be relevant at all. It is absurd the state BM is in right now.

rant over.
27/08/2017 14:01Posted by Shotkill
all bm hunters delete chars.
and go open dh chars.

blizz wants to live a dk disaster.
GL with that, DHs are only slightly above BMs.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#region=1&dataset=99

You'd be better off all rerolling to arms warriors lol.
https://simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T20M.html

gj blizz

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