RNG is here to stay, its "exciting"!

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I think Ion's arguments are very weak.

He's being way too systematic about this. He's forgetting the world and the context of these items and why they're there.

The slot machine argument that people are making is completely valid. It feels like loot got reduced to a slot machine. It's still kind of addictive, but it isn't fun unless you enjoy slot machines, which most of us here probably don't.

But I'll take the argument one step further, and simply put it like this:
Items represent objects in the game world. They are things of potential power that enemies have held on to, and when we kill them or do something for them, we get to have those things.

This implies several things. Firstly, that a particular item is that particular item. It doesn't come in all sorts of crazy varieties. We can tolerate a little bit of that in the service of game systems, but if there's literally hundreds of variants of one item, then that is no longer one item. It's hundreds of items that have confusingly similar names and appearances. It doesn't feel like a real object in the game's world and lore, and this takes away A LOT of excitement for it.

What it essentially means is I can no longer say "I've got the legendary, incredible Sentinel Medallion from the sisters of the moon who were buried beneath the tomb of Sargeras". Instead I have to say "I've got the variety of the Sentinel Medallion with 930 levels of power and an extra gem socket in it". It just makes no damned sense. It's gamey and ridiculous.

Secondly, that a specific enemy or set of enemies held on to it and that it was potentially desirable to others, too. Unfortunately a lot of this loot, rather than being dropped from specific enemies, is dropped from everything. Now, I suddenly have to justify why I can't get incredibly powerful from taking all the artifacts from Ragnaros the Firelord, but some random boar in the Broken Isles can give me the Soul of the first Guardian of Tirisfal. Of course, a random boar off the coast in Lordaeron couldn't give me that. It's because it's a random boar on the Broken Isles, you see, even though Tirisfal was actually in Lordaeron.

You see how this !@#$ just makes no %^-*ing sense? Beyond the fact that it's frustratingly random when you don't get the item you want and can't target what you want in any meaningful way, even when you get it, it doesn't feel like a great artifact of power. It's just completely random, and it feels like !@#$.

Honestly, the whole Legion loot system. SCRAP IT! ALL OF IT! It's dog%^-*. And if you can't see why, it is plainly obvious that you have no respect whatsoever for the rich history and lore of the game world.

You see, when we're playing World of Warcraft, it's probably because we're excited about the world of warcraft. The world, its peoples, its objects. We're not excited about slot machines or endless loot grinds. That's not why we play.

Now, I wanna finish this off by saying the Ion is a great systems designer. I'm not going to take that away from him. But he needs a lore nerd to sit next to him and beat him over the head every time he proposes !@#$ like this. Whoever you are, you lore geek on the WoW dev team, do your job!
07/10/2017 09:04Posted by Iggwilv
07/10/2017 06:43Posted by Taronn
...

Well, if we look it like that then yeah, losing everything on a slot machine is also not unfair because i know that i can't always win and i will have money again next month, but it can be still frustrating, especially if a guy next to me win everytime.

But when Legion is comparable to a slot machine its a little bit of a problem.


You can't compare it to gambling because you lose nothing. Don't even begin to say money because you already pay for the game; and don't even begin to say time because you already play the game. These arguments are pure strawman.


I never said i lose anything, but there is a difference between winning and not winning and in this expansion its all about luck when it comes to gear, if you lucky, you win, if you are not lucky, you don't, performance/time investment doesn't matter when it comes to war/titanforge procs nor to obtaining legendaries. So yes, its exactly just like a slot machine, be lucky and win, be unlucky and watch how others obtaining better quality and higher ilvl gear than you.

07/10/2017 11:00Posted by Espanca
07/10/2017 10:34Posted by Kraivanah
And blizzard says this is a great success, since the playtime of a player was never so high.


Isn't that a good measure?


In some case its good, in other case it shows why players are burning out.
07/10/2017 11:00Posted by Espanca
07/10/2017 10:34Posted by Kraivanah
And blizzard says this is a great success, since the playtime of a player was never so high.


Isn't that a good measure?


It actually isn't, because it just shows how little blizzard cares for costumer satisfaction. They do not care if a large portion of their playerbase hates their system so long as it gives them money. Think of it like youtube videos that get a lot of dislikes and people share them around for how bad they are. The creators probably do not care because they get the money for the views at the end of the day, and will continue doing bad videos for more money until the topic becomes stale and dies.
07/10/2017 11:00Posted by Espanca
07/10/2017 10:34Posted by Kraivanah
And blizzard says this is a great success, since the playtime of a player was never so high.


Isn't that a good measure?

You quoted this part of my whole comment and ignored the sentence just underneath it?

"Working in mcdonalds for minimal wage is fun, even trough your disrespected by sociaty. Most collage student start their carrier there." Why dont make a law that every human being should for 6 month in the mcdonald than?

Played time and time spnt enjoyment is two different thing.
Check final fantasy games for example: even speedrun videos can be 10-14 hours. While the game is randomly trowing enemies into your face.

Or lets stay in WoW:
Ranged weapons dont need ammo anymore.
Why did they removed it than? Any statistic showed that every hunter literally bought thousands of ammunition for questing. So there was a huge demand for it, why the hell was it removed than?
This whole argument is tired and stupid.

There is no other way bar guaranteed grinds to award rewards, so it has to default to rng.

Has the balance swung too far (with things like paragon satchels being rng too)? Probably, yes.

Ion's logic is sound if not exciting. RNG isn't "exciting". It's simply the reality of game design to keep you coming back because the alternative is you unsub. Acting like they are Dr Evil for trying a few tricks to keep you subbed is idiotic.
So if the team feels that there should be an appropriate reward for doing content, why does a +13 drop mediocre items at best, if anything drops at all, while meatgrinding down a major invasion point gives you 930+? :/
07/10/2017 12:55Posted by Terrent
So if the team feels that there should be an appropriate reward for doing content, why does a +13 drop mediocre items at best, if anything drops at all, while meatgrinding down a major invasion point gives you 930+? :/


Because you cannot repeat the major invasion points without limit =)
07/10/2017 12:36Posted by Dejarous
This whole argument is tired and stupid.

There is no other way bar guaranteed grinds to award rewards, so it has to default to rng.

Has the balance swung too far (with things like paragon satchels being rng too)? Probably, yes.

Ion's logic is sound if not exciting. RNG isn't "exciting". It's simply the reality of game design to keep you coming back because the alternative is you unsub. Acting like they are Dr Evil for trying a few tricks to keep you subbed is idiotic.
I think a big part of the deal here is that the core reward loop has been broken.

WoW is ultimately about exploring the vast expanses of the Warcraft universe. In order to pace that, you put in some grinds and activites that you must perform in order to proceed and see the next area. The exploration is the reward, and the items are a mechanism that sets the pacing of that.

As a result, these titanforges feel like random level skips - to the extent that that even matters, because another big part of the Legion system is that there is no progression of content. You're expedited quickly to the end-game areas, and once there, you're faced with a colossal grind to not really see much new.

It's still fun to explore the world because Blizzard are doing a good job of pacing the content with how they release it, but the content never feels like a reward. WoW, in its current state, is doing a VERY bad job of rewarding players. The game almost never feels rewarding.
07/10/2017 12:36Posted by Dejarous
This whole argument is tired and stupid.

There is no other way bar guaranteed grinds to award rewards, so it has to default to rng.

Has the balance swung too far (with things like paragon satchels being rng too)? Probably, yes.

Ion's logic is sound if not exciting. RNG isn't "exciting". It's simply the reality of game design to keep you coming back because the alternative is you unsub. Acting like they are Dr Evil for trying a few tricks to keep you subbed is idiotic.


Its not a logical answer because WoW managed to make people come back for 6 expansions before Legion (except for the second half of WoD) without this ridiculous amount of RNG and people didn't unsubbed.

If they want to keep it then at least create a logical cap for it like how they did in WoD at first when warforge came into mythic dungeons and the gear had the chance to upgrade to ilvl 705 and then with that you could do HFC normal and progress further. There are too much irrelevant content that gives people relevant rewards easier than they should get it, of course players are becoming lazy.

They are not Dr Evil with tricks, but seems like they forgot how to create something that makes the people keep playing without this RNG "reward" fest.
07/10/2017 12:35Posted by Kraivanah
07/10/2017 11:00Posted by Espanca
...
Isn't that a good measure?

You quoted this part of my whole comment and ignored the sentence just underneath it?

Indeed, tougth wasn't relevant at all to this matter, but if you insist
07/10/2017 10:34Posted by Kraivanah

Well... lottery in real life is a good way to become rich following this logic.

Agree, by any logic. Millionaires poppin every week. Unless someone's blessed with godly football skills or something, it's probably their best shot at getting rich.
07/10/2017 10:34Posted by Kraivanah

And slavery is a good way to build up a company: 0 cost of labor incrases the profit.

Agree. So good in fact that had to be forbidden in most places, or else no employer would use other way.
07/10/2017 12:35Posted by Kraivanah

"Working in mcdonalds for minimal wage is fun, even trough your disrespected by sociaty. Most collage student start their carrier there." Why dont make a law that every human being should for 6 month in the mcdonald than?

I dont understand your point. For me work is not fun.
07/10/2017 12:35Posted by Kraivanah
Played time and time spnt enjoyment is two different thing.
Check final fantasy games for example: even speedrun videos can be 10-14 hours. While the game is randomly trowing enemies into your face.

I disagree. The time I spend playing games is the time I am enjoying them. It's the only thing I take out of it.
07/10/2017 12:35Posted by Kraivanah

Or lets stay in WoW:
Ranged weapons dont need ammo anymore.
Why did they removed it than? Any statistic showed that every hunter literally bought thousands of ammunition for questing. So there was a huge demand for it, why the hell was it removed than?

Can't say why, I wasn't accountable for it. For me was a good change cause I would always run out of ammo at the worst possible time. But I didn't blame the system, it was just my poor planning.
06/10/2017 06:17Posted by Iggwilv
Why would you possibly care what someone else is wearing? Surely the only thing that matters is your gear and your friends gear? Or are you that self obsessed that you have to be able to ‘look down on others’ in order to feel good about your success?


Sadly you got the argument wrong because it wasn't about me being envious of the fact that people might have better gear than me because the game rolled the dice in their favor. It doesn't affect me since I don't really raid so therefore I don't have to worry about the unfortunate possibility of getting replaced like some poor souls because somebody else was blessed with better luck and will therefore theoretically perform better.

However, the fact that it doesn't impact me specifically doesn't stop me from taking concern in it since I understand that it's not a healthy mechanic for a game like this.

But enough of that, the point I was trying to make was that people should "earn" the gear they have in this game by doing the appropriate tasks/content, e.g. people who put the time and effort in to be the best at something like mythic raiders, r1 PvPers, world record m+ holders etc. should be the ones that get the best rewards suited for their niche.

The current system we have basically rewards you for what you do to some extent but after that it's purely a crap shoot with botched outcomes.

Let's imagine that you're in a raid guild and manage to down KJ on mythic, you feel thrilled about finally beating the encounter because you've put so much time and effort into it and you're glad because you got an 945 item that's a decent upgrade compared to what you had but nothing too special.

After all the screenshots are taken and whatever you decide to log on your relatively fresh 110 alt to complete some appearance quests and smash some puny orcs for the weekly quest. You decide to roll by your class hall to put some missions on for gold and reputation and suddenly you remember that you haven't opened your weekly loot chest that's waiting for you since you completed a few keystones with your friends last week.

You open the chest and BOOM, a 955 turboforged with fully pimped out sockets, perfect spec stats and fitting tertiary stats hits your inventory like nobody's business. You're thrilled for a while since the item is such a massive upgrade compared to the rest of the ~910 relinquished stuff you have on your alt but after a while the hype dies off as the realization of disparity hits you when you understand that you were just randomly rewarded something that's miles better than most items on your main and you were basically given it without any effort.

Should you now keep playing on your alt because you really don't want to "waste" the good item you just got and because you might even be able to surpass your main by just running some mythics and farm runs with your guild every now and then or do you go back to focusing on your main while still feeling a bit bummed out as to why you never got anything that good on the character you really wanted and needed it on despite having put hundreds of hours into the game?

TL;DR: You shouldn't be mad that somebody got rewarded better gear than you since it's always been a part of the game to some extent; a boss only drops a certain amount of loot after all, but you have every reason to question and even regard it as unfair that the game doesn't take into proper consideration what the basis of the reward system is and how demoralizing and short sighted it is to implement reward mechanics that are for the most part out of the players hands in a way where you have no guarantee for your hard work paying off.
07/10/2017 13:00Posted by Bundor
07/10/2017 12:55Posted by Terrent
So if the team feels that there should be an appropriate reward for doing content, why does a +13 drop mediocre items at best, if anything drops at all, while meatgrinding down a major invasion point gives you 930+? :/


Because you cannot repeat the major invasion points without limit =)


That's a pretty poor justification for making welfare loot better then things you actually put effort in >____>
07/10/2017 11:36Posted by Ishayoe
You see, when we're playing World of Warcraft, it's probably because we're excited about the world of warcraft. The world, its peoples, its objects. We're not excited about slot machines or endless loot grinds. That's not why we play.


This so very much.
07/10/2017 08:09Posted by Gitmix
That vod was a !@#$ing disgrace. These fools are shooting themselves in the foot so hard and they're too thick to even realize it.

I'll keep playing legion but if they stay the course with RNG, AP, Class Halls and all the other garbage that was added these passed couple years, there's no %^-*ing way I'm buying the new expansion.

GG Hazzikostas or whoever the !@#$ is pulling your strings.


The whole community hates RNG, so, we better make a Q&A to say that we like it.

How to ruin your Game in 2 easy steps:

1. implement a sh1tload of w/e

2. when people say they dont like it, say that they are wrong and go on
07/10/2017 16:38Posted by Dramatotem
The whole community hates RNG, so, we better make a Q&A to say that we like it.

How to ruin your Game in 2 easy steps:

1. implement a sh1tload of w/e

2. when people say they dont like it, say that they are wrong and go on
Old DIII dev team now WoW team: "DIII was a succes, we just got rid of 80%+ of the playerbase the moment we introduced stuff like acient gear (titanforge system)! And had put so many RNG layers in gear people got fed up! Surely this means going overboard on RNG is the best that can happen to WoW!"

Edit: The worst thing is that not only us but even the top guilds mentioned in a big post why titanforging ruins both character progression and raid prgression (already have titanforge piece of gear of the bosses you still have to kill). It puts too much pressure on the players to keep playing content that is below their level to infinity for titanforges, legendaries (at the start of course) and AP. But it keeps people playing and since they stopped measuring succes in subs but instead in total time played and logged in...
07/10/2017 16:38Posted by Dramatotem
07/10/2017 08:09Posted by Gitmix
That vod was a !@#$ing disgrace. These fools are shooting themselves in the foot so hard and they're too thick to even realize it.

I'll keep playing legion but if they stay the course with RNG, AP, Class Halls and all the other garbage that was added these passed couple years, there's no %^-*ing way I'm buying the new expansion.

GG Hazzikostas or whoever the !@#$ is pulling your strings.


The whole community hates RNG, so, we better make a Q&A to say that we like it.

How to ruin your Game in 2 easy steps:

1. implement a sh1tload of w/e

2. when people say they dont like it, say that they are wrong and go on


No - the whole community doesn’t ‘not like RNG’. The vocal minority (a few hundred) on the forums don’t like it.
07/10/2017 20:37Posted by Iggwilv
<span class="truncated">...</span>

The whole community hates RNG, so, we better make a Q&A to say that we like it.

How to ruin your Game in 2 easy steps:

1. implement a sh1tload of w/e

2. when people say they dont like it, say that they are wrong and go on


No - the whole community doesn’t ‘not like RNG’. The vocal minority (a few hundred) on the forums don’t like it.


Blizzard doesnt do polls, so we can never know if something is liked by the majority or not.

For example, pruning, you could say most say, that it has gone to far with utility atleast, again we could say a that it is just a vocal minority, and so on.

You can make this argument about literally anything this community has ever liked/disliked, if your a PvPer you should have heard about how OP DKs were in S5, i could just say that this was just a vocal minority, except if you bring in ladder numbers there is no way to dis/prove that.

07/10/2017 20:37Posted by Iggwilv
a few hundred


Yes and i say the current WoW subs are below 100k, anything to disprove me?

Except if you count them yourself or use any third-party websites there is no way, again, to dis/prove that.

Saying how the point that you dont like is just a part of the "vocal minority" is such a cheap tactic.
07/10/2017 20:37Posted by Iggwilv
No - the whole community doesn’t ‘not like RNG’. The vocal minority (a few hundred) on the forums don’t like it.
People who don't post on the forums doesn't mean they agree nor disagree, most are not vocal. They will simply use gold/tokens to stay subbed since they refuse to pay, outright unsub or simply only stay so they can raid with friends. Barely being online outside of raid times. Or outright casuals (time wise!) who go slow regardless who don't really notice it because due to kids, work, sick family member etc. they don't have the time to really play at end game or farm at all.

Imagine for a sec if every player posts here regurarly, the forums would stop loading since the servers would just crash or be slow. All forums are the vocal minority and many people just support their side with likes. They will maybe add a comment if they think OP missed a point or to clarify which part they agreed or disagreed with. Nothing wrong with it, imagine every single person writing a post that say exactly the same thing it would be a waste of time and server space.
07/10/2017 20:37Posted by Iggwilv
07/10/2017 16:38Posted by Dramatotem
...

The whole community hates RNG, so, we better make a Q&A to say that we like it.

How to ruin your Game in 2 easy steps:

1. implement a sh1tload of w/e

2. when people say they dont like it, say that they are wrong and go on


No - the whole community doesn’t ‘not like RNG’. The vocal minority (a few hundred) on the forums don’t like it.


This is a counterargument based on literally nothing. Just because other people decide to silently swallow everything that doesn't mean they don't feel the same way. I already saw and spoke to plenty people ingame who hates this system.
...

No - the whole community doesn’t ‘not like RNG’. The vocal minority (a few hundred) on the forums don’t like it.


Blizzard doesnt do polls, so we can never know if something is liked by the majority or not.

For example, pruning, you could say most say, that it has gone to far with utility atleast, again we could say a that it is just a vocal minority, and so on.

You can make this argument about literally anything this community has ever liked/disliked, if your a PvPer you should have heard about how OP DKs were in S5, i could just say that this was just a vocal minority, except if you bring in ladder numbers there is no way to dis/prove that.

07/10/2017 20:37Posted by Iggwilv
a few hundred


Yes and i say the current WoW subs are below 100k, anything to disprove me?

Except if you count them yourself or use any third-party websites there is no way, again, to dis/prove that.

Saying how the point that you dont like is just a part of the "vocal minority" is such a cheap tactic.


Ofc we all know they don’t publish subscriber figures anymore; but financial institutions publish accounts and their accounts are still healthy and one could ‘predict’ between 3 and 5 million active subscribers.

So yes - a few hundred on the forums being unhappy are piecemeal

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