You think you want Classic, but you don't

Classic Discussion
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09/11/2017 20:04Posted by Alakhai
I find it hilarious how much flak J. Allen Brack gets for having said "You think you do, but you don't" when asked about legacy servers. I completely agree with him. Don't get me wrong, I'm going to welcome Classic when it comes and if it requires independent subscription, then bye-bye this WoW because I'm jumping ship immediately and won't be looking back. But I'm not going to expect that Classic is going to be a breezy stroll down the honey-covered memory lane. For me it's just going to be next best thing and unfortunately, best available.

Forums and social media are filled with all kinds of reminiscing about days of yore and how it'll be fun to be able to do all that again. "It's going to be fun doing those old quests", "it's going to be fun running those old dungeons", "it's going to be fun doing this and that"... Sure those are going to be fun moments but between them it's going to be HELL. You're excited because you only remember the fun times and not the misery. You may have not even considered all that as misery because you simply didn't know any better. Now you do and believe me, going back would be a massive step back and not all in a good way. Absolutely everything was behind massive amount of work. Now you're thinking "but WoW today is so easy, it could use some of that challenge" but just zip it. I'm not talking about challenge, I'm talking about work. There's a difference.

Here's a detail that most of you aren't even thinking about and it will conveniently further take us to other points. Back then there were considerably less flight points than there is today. Cue laughs. Why does it matter? Because you will be RUNNING. EVERYWHERE. ON YOUR FEET. There will be no portals to jump in, no magic button to take you to a dungeon with full party and back when it's over, you won't even have a mount until very late in your leveling (which by the way takes weeks). Running through Wetlands on your feet with a bunch of alligators chasing your tail sure makes for a fun anecdote but do you really want that to be your life? All day, every day?

When I say running, I really do mean running. You won't be riding and you most certainly won't be flying. You're allowed to have a mount at level 40, not 20, and it will cost so ridiculously much that you're most likely be closer to level 50 until you actually get it. And that's the weak-o mount with 160% speed. 200% EPIC mounts come at level 60 and that'll be it. That's as fast as you'll ever go, after months of hard work put into obtaining such a miraculous steed. "Mounts come 20 levels later, you say? Fine, I'll just level few hours more." Wrong. 20-40 took many days and riding skill cost so much money you wouldn't have been able to get it right after dinging 40. You could save a lot of money by playing a warlock or a paladin, you cheeky bugger, but even they weren't just handed their mounts.

How about getting that money? Now we're talking! Without your flying mounts you won't be skipping from deposit to deposit (or whatever it is you're collecting). You will be... *drumroll* RUNNING! And not just running but competing for those deposits, maybe even fighting for them. And before you even think about selling your gatherings, let me remind you that a stack of minerals did NOT sell for 500 gold back then. You'd make peanuts because that's what people had to spend, peanuts. So maybe it's better to just make an alt with profession(s) that could use those materials. And leveling that alt would take weeks. Weeks of hard work and RUNNING.

Oh well, at least you'd get to experience the old content again. Except that you won't. At least not all of it. Because of complete lack of Dungeon Finder and massive lack of transportation, there's going to be a lot of stuff you won't be seeing, depending on faction you pick. And you can't pick both. You can now, but you couldn't back then. Pick one faction and you'll miss a huge bunch of areas and dungeons, pick the other and you'll miss other bunch. Pick Horde and you won't be playing paladin, pick Alliance and you'll miss shaman.

You still think you'll be having nothing but fun in Classic? Try these couple, simple Classic-simulators (patent pending) and see for yourself:

  • Create a new character. Level all the way up to 10, then stop playing. Why? Because that was your first day. Leveling was so much slower and harder back then that even lowest of levels could take hours to advance. There were no heirlooms, no quest lines and -rewards revamped in Cataclysm, no Dungeon Finder to take you to places you had to visit. If you think you're such a hardcore grinder and can use your already gathered knowledge in your advance then fine, you can level up to 15. But that's it. Now you've spent all day and most of the night and completely neglected all your duties and social circles.
  • Start from Stormwind and run all the way to Scarlet Monastery. On your feet, of course. I give you a tip: Use the tram. Yes, it's not only useful again, but a necessity. And in this case will save you about 25% of the time. But rest of the way you have to run. This will only apply to your first trip though since you can use flight points from then on. If you remember to pick them up. You have to actually visit them to be able to use them, no freebies anymore. But at least there's a lot less points to visit. No, wait, that's a bad thing...
  • So what do I want if not Classic? My ideal version would be Wrath of the Lich King. Getting a mount wasn't so ridiculous anymore. There was Dungeon Finder but no Raid Finder. Story and story-telling were better than ever before, especially with phasing. Northrend was (still is) absolutely gorgeous. Old talent trees, god I miss those. And the old content was still there, at least most of it. Ye olde Naxxramas was gone and replaced but let's be honest, you didn't clear it back then and you won't clear it in Classic.


    Useless wall of words. I used to Play from 2005 to 2010 with this toon and now i have played on Pservers for 2 years.And i will play on Classic.Vanilla is the best game i have ever played.
    I started RPG with Advanced dungeons & dragons in the 80's so i think i know what i'm talking about.
    Regards
    04/12/2017 10:14Posted by Whitepaw
    My best time in Vanilla was Christmas 2006. The pre-TBC patch had just rolled in, with Mangle for Feral. Blizzard opened up for buying PvP armor normally reserved for PvP ranked. I had farmed my AQ20 weapon/armor 3-set. Suddenly, I had a competitive weapon, a REAL Feral armor set and a solid combo builder ability. That Christmas was AMAZING! I played so much PvP, but I also did a lot of open world stuff - that extra speed from the PvP armor was just so much fun!

    But that was not because of Vanilla. That was because Blizzard woke up and realised that ALL specs should be viable in some way - and fun to play.

    That was the begining of the end.
    And all you had to do earlier is just get 13 or 14 rank if you wanted pvp. But you prefered pve and cry that it was so unfair that you couldn't just go and pvp and kill ppl who lived on bg.
    All specs were viable but you had to do something to make them viable unlike in some ... like Legion. Go and play it if it is so amazing for you to see all specs "viable".


    All specs were viable in Vanilla? Man, you have been smoking some serious sh!t.

    No, they were not! Vanilla was the one period in time in WoW where most specs were relegated to a supporting role, while some specs (and for warriors, an entire class) took center stage and main roles.

    If your class had a healing role, you !@#$ing HEALED! That's just a fact. No healing class had a tier set with set bonuses for anything other than healing. You could do stuff with non-tier items, but you were left behind the true tanks (warriors), true melee dps (warriors and rogues) and true casters (mages). The whole game was basically designed around the core abilities of warriors, priests, rogues and mages. Shaman, druids and paladins had some important niche abilities - but the aforementioned classes bore the brunt of the tasks. Some bosses even had abilities only warriors could handle!

    Now, the game is more balanced than ever before - and since I love hybrid classes, I enjoy this a lot.
    The easier way of doing any of this is to re-engineer current wow to vanilla wow - or as close as you could possibly get without losing too many or gaining too few.

    The thing everybody wants with vanilla wow will most likely have an end date far shorter than whatever is expected of the current wow if it somehow went even further with its current course of going from bad to worse.

    I can't believe that the amount of brain matter available at Blizzard, and everything they do, would blindly pull up a weed out of the ground and simply give it a good shake.
    <span class="truncated">...</span>
    That was the begining of the end.
    And all you had to do earlier is just get 13 or 14 rank if you wanted pvp. But you prefered pve and cry that it was so unfair that you couldn't just go and pvp and kill ppl who lived on bg.
    All specs were viable but you had to do something to make them viable unlike in some ... like Legion. Go and play it if it is so amazing for you to see all specs "viable".


    All specs were viable in Vanilla? Man, you have been smoking some serious sh!t.

    No, they were not! Vanilla was the one period in time in WoW where most specs were relegated to a supporting role, while some specs (and for warriors, an entire class) took center stage and main roles.

    If your class had a healing role, you !@#$ing HEALED! That's just a fact. No healing class had a tier set with set bonuses for anything other than healing. You could do stuff with non-tier items, but you were left behind the true tanks (warriors), true melee dps (warriors and rogues) and true casters (mages). The whole game was basically designed around the core abilities of warriors, priests, rogues and mages. Shaman, druids and paladins had some important niche abilities - but the aforementioned classes bore the brunt of the tasks. Some bosses even had abilities only warriors could handle!

    Now, the game is more balanced than ever before - and since I love hybrid classes, I enjoy this a lot.

    We had 14 rank shadow priest in raid - he did some nice dps. My warrior with ashkandi+bwl+ag40 bis dd gear did nice dps too even in arms build. I saw video with retri paladin with nax wepons who crushed everything. Crazy ench shamans with sulfuras and so on. May be there were some dead specs like tank paladin or tank druid but all classes had at least 2 of 3 viable specs. Some had all 3 with tons of variations of builds in talents.
    But yes you had to get gear and yes it was difficult. Classic was a game when 1 of 100 ppl got top gear and then he could totaly enjoy his ovewhelming domination over other 99. My warrior with press sweeping strikes + whirlwhind + recklesness could one shot 4 green/blue men in just 1 hit. Once with 2 healeares assisting me I killed FULL horde raid on arathi solo. I just one shoted everyone cause there were no equel of my gear in their raid and I got heals at the same time.
    If you don't like this balance so you don't like classic and that's all.
    06/12/2017 19:42Posted by Ллаит
    ...

    All specs were viable in Vanilla? Man, you have been smoking some serious sh!t.

    No, they were not! Vanilla was the one period in time in WoW where most specs were relegated to a supporting role, while some specs (and for warriors, an entire class) took center stage and main roles.

    If your class had a healing role, you !@#$ing HEALED! That's just a fact. No healing class had a tier set with set bonuses for anything other than healing. You could do stuff with non-tier items, but you were left behind the true tanks (warriors), true melee dps (warriors and rogues) and true casters (mages). The whole game was basically designed around the core abilities of warriors, priests, rogues and mages. Shaman, druids and paladins had some important niche abilities - but the aforementioned classes bore the brunt of the tasks. Some bosses even had abilities only warriors could handle!

    Now, the game is more balanced than ever before - and since I love hybrid classes, I enjoy this a lot.

    We had 14 rank shadow priest in raid - he did some nice dps. My warrior with ashkandi+bwl+ag40 bis dd gear did nice dps too even in arms build. I saw video with retri paladin with nax wepons who crushed everything. Crazy ench shamans with sulfuras and so on. May be there were some dead specs like tank paladin or tank druid but all classes had at least 2 of 3 viable specs. Some had all 3 with tons of variations of builds in talents.
    But yes you had to get gear and yes it was difficult. Classic was a game when 1 of 100 ppl got top gear and then he could totaly enjoy his ovewhelming domination over other 99. My warrior with press sweeping strikes + whirlwhind + recklesness could one shot 4 green/blue men in just 1 hit. Once with 2 healeares assisting me I killed FULL horde raid on arathi solo. I just one shoted everyone cause there were no equel of my gear in their raid and I got heals at the same time.
    If you don't like this balance so you don't like classic and that's all.


    That’s right: I DON’T like that classes like warriors and rogues were so completely overpowered. And it comes as no surprise for me that you played a warrior back in Vanilla - most people who are longing back to Vanilla played one of the overpowered classes and Warrior was THE most overpowered class in Vanilla.

    And it wasn’t just gearing. We’re talking overpowered rage gains, perfectly itemised weapons, fantastic and unique CC clearing abilities and good CC. Warriors had it all, but more importantly: Most of the other classes did not! And not only that - warriors were good at all parts of the game, so they were also good at farming stuff (which was needed in Vanilla).

    I agree that other specs could do fun stuff - but there was a large gap between a class like Warrior and a class like Druid. But if you argue that we should have WoW Classic with the last patch before TBC was released, I would think that is a nice idea. That patch at least tried to balance the classes.
    09/11/2017 20:04Posted by Alakhai
    So what do I want if not Classic? My ideal version would be Wrath of the Lich King. Getting a mount wasn't so ridiculous anymore. There was Dungeon Finder but no Raid Finder. Story and story-telling were better than ever before, especially with phasing. Northrend was (still is) absolutely gorgeous. Old talent trees, god I miss those. And the old content was still there, at least most of it. Ye olde Naxxramas was gone and replaced but let's be honest, you didn't clear it back then and you won't clear it in Classic.
    I don't doubt for a second that the reason they are spending so much time on classic, is to make it possible to apply the same tech to newer xpacs.

    If this is a success, I would fully expect BC and Wrath servers to arrive. My personal favourite is Burning Crusade. But, you don't see me trying to tell the hardcore vanilla fans they're wrong for what they want. Just wait and see if you also get what you want, before trying to warp what's already been promised to what you'd like personally.
    ...
    We had 14 rank shadow priest in raid - he did some nice dps. My warrior with ashkandi+bwl+ag40 bis dd gear did nice dps too even in arms build. I saw video with retri paladin with nax wepons who crushed everything. Crazy ench shamans with sulfuras and so on. May be there were some dead specs like tank paladin or tank druid but all classes had at least 2 of 3 viable specs. Some had all 3 with tons of variations of builds in talents.
    But yes you had to get gear and yes it was difficult. Classic was a game when 1 of 100 ppl got top gear and then he could totaly enjoy his ovewhelming domination over other 99. My warrior with press sweeping strikes + whirlwhind + recklesness could one shot 4 green/blue men in just 1 hit. Once with 2 healeares assisting me I killed FULL horde raid on arathi solo. I just one shoted everyone cause there were no equel of my gear in their raid and I got heals at the same time.
    If you don't like this balance so you don't like classic and that's all.


    That’s right: I DON’T like that classes like warriors and rogues were so completely overpowered. And it comes as no surprise for me that you played a warrior back in Vanilla - most people who are longing back to Vanilla played one of the overpowered classes and Warrior was THE most overpowered class in Vanilla.

    And it wasn’t just gearing. We’re talking overpowered rage gains, perfectly itemised weapons, fantastic and unique CC clearing abilities and good CC. Warriors had it all, but more importantly: Most of the other classes did not! And not only that - warriors were good at all parts of the game, so they were also good at farming stuff (which was needed in Vanilla).

    I agree that other specs could do fun stuff - but there was a large gap between a class like Warrior and a class like Druid. But if you argue that we should have WoW Classic with the last patch before TBC was released, I would think that is a nice idea. That patch at least tried to balance the classes.


    Let's just say that if you actually put in the effort of leveling a warrior in vanilla and got him geared, you deserved to be a little over powered. Warriors were hands down the worst class to level, forget being afraid of 3+ mob pulls, at low levels you were dead if you pulled 2. And even against single enemies, all it took was a couple misses at critical points and that was it; you could just as well lie down and die because you had zero escape abilities. Leveling up a warrior took much more than leveling any other class, so they really deserved their crown.
    My first character was a warrior and levelling was hell. Not really sure though that one hard month to get your Arcanite Reaper (other gear was available) justified being overpowered for two years.
    07/12/2017 09:59Posted by Whitepaw
    That’s right: I DON’T like that classes like warriors and rogues were so completely overpowered.


    Well, then vanilla is not for you. That's okay, it's just that you need to accept it.
    I dont care for this "You think you do, but you don't" .. I dont need ,,Vanilla,, where is lot of things diffrent. I dont need thousand and thousand of people to play vanilla. I believe lot of player will come and try Vanilla because of HYPE but lot of them will leave until lvl 20, and this is good probaly.

    Maybe blizzard can make 2 type of vanilla. One exactly same and another game Vanilla 2.0 where can make changes for kids.
    Heheh, nice post. As someone who works full time and doesn't have the time and/or wish to spend that much grinding to get just a mount, i won't be playing classic. But for you guys that are going to do so, enjoy and have fun.
    08/12/2017 10:16Posted by Vunde
    07/12/2017 09:59Posted by Whitepaw
    That’s right: I DON’T like that classes like warriors and rogues were so completely overpowered.


    Well, then vanilla is not for you. That's okay, it's just that you need to accept it.


    But that’s not what I said - I said that Vanilla with patch 2.0 applied would be ok, because that patch tried to balance classes and specs.

    One of the reasons WoW was in such a bad state at the end of Vanilla was because classes/specs were so imbalanced. At the gear level, you could really see the differences between fx a prot warrior and any other tank spec. That had some immediate impact on the raiding guilds, as everyone needed geared prot warriors for progress. It was the same with the differences between the dps output from a “pure” dps class and a “hybrid” dps spec (fx a Feral Druid).

    And it’s not because the imbalance was the aim of the WoW devs. The reason behind it was primarily that classes were patched one class at a time, so balance was had to achieve. Patch 2.0 was the first to address that as well, since that patch tried to balance all classes and specs, at the same time.

    The concept of having an MMO with build-in imbalances between classes is flawed. People will either never play the underpowered classes - or they will leave the MMO. You will never have a stable situation, where a lot of players agree to relegate themselves to being less valued, so others can take the crown.

    So what you suggest is a flawed concept - while my suggestion of going with a patch in which classes have been balanced is much more sound and healthy for the game.
    11/12/2017 13:07Posted by Whitepaw
    I said that Vanilla with patch 2.0 applied would be ok


    For you. Are you the only one who's going to play it?

    11/12/2017 13:07Posted by Whitepaw
    One of the reasons WoW was in such a bad state at the end of Vanilla was because classes/specs were so imbalanced.


    It was still steadily gaining more and more subscribers... how is that a bad state? In your mind it was in a bad state and you personally may not have liked it, which is fine, but it was not in a bad state at all.

    11/12/2017 13:07Posted by Whitepaw
    So what you suggest is a flawed concept - while my suggestion of going with a patch in which classes have been balanced is much more sound and healthy for the game.


    Hmyes, because they achieved such balance these days... which they didn't. They certainly tried, though, and destroyed the gameplay in the process. So healthy indeed.

    My concept of me wishing you the best in legion which has all the features you like is flawed how, exactly?
    The next thing is, i dont know if its mentioned already. But you have to take into account that alot has changed, people have changed, the view on gaming have changed. Blizzard will make a classic server, yes, but i seriously doubt that they will just restore the old vanilla gameplay and release that with newer graphics.
    Im pretty sure that there are going to be surden changes, that makes life a little easier in classic, than in the god ol' vanilla world of warcraft.
    14/12/2017 10:24Posted by Thakzî
    The next thing is, i dont know if its mentioned already. But you have to take into account that alot has changed, people have changed, the view on gaming have changed. Blizzard will make a classic server, yes, but i seriously doubt that they will just restore the old vanilla gameplay and release that with newer graphics.
    Im pretty sure that there are going to be surden changes, that makes life a little easier in classic, than in the god ol' vanilla world of warcraft.


    And how would that be consistent with them wanting to put up a presentation of how it all started?

    Classic isn't about making life easy... it's about endlessly roughing it, just as it was.
    09/11/2017 20:04Posted by Alakhai
    I find it hilarious how much flak J. Allen Brack gets for having said "You think you do, but you don't" when asked about legacy servers. I completely agree with him.

    I do too. Look at all the damage the things people thought they wanted has done to WoW retail.

    "OMG WE WANT FLYING!", and they never realized what they ended up sacrificing in the process.

    Sure those are going to be fun moments but between them it's going to be HELL. You're excited because you only remember the fun times and not the misery.

    https://i.imgur.com/XNuiCEw.jpg

    Believe me, I remember the misery.

    Yes, it's going to be hell. But at least it will be memorable!

    Absolutely everything was behind massive amount of work.

    It's called content...

    Whether you call it 'playing a game' or 'working' is a personal choice. If you find yourself experiencing it as "work", may I suggest you stop paying money for it?

    Now you're thinking "but WoW today is so easy, it could use some of that challenge" but just zip it.

    No, I'm not thinking that, and your tone is disgusting.

    I'm not talking about challenge, I'm talking about work. There's a difference.

    And you're an idiot if you're paying money for it. But hey, that's your choice.

    Here's a detail that most of you aren't even thinking about and it will conveniently further take us to other points. Back then there were considerably less flight points than there is today. Cue laughs. Why does it matter? Because you will be RUNNING. EVERYWHERE. ON YOUR FEET.

    OH. MY. ELUNE! THE HORROR!

    Quick! Add in level 20 mounts and flying mounts at level 40! Can't have that! Our poor feet! While we're at it, better increase mounted speed by 500% orso, can't afford to have all that time wasted! And who in their right mind wants to waste their time RUNNING TOWARDS A DUNGEON ENTRANCE?! Better add back in LFD!

    So much more efficient!

    Phew, glad you averted this crisis for us.

    I skimmed through the rest of your rant and honestly, I don't even feel like responding to all that pointless whining.

    All that time wasted reading your vile crap is better spent running around in vanilla WoW.
    Everything the OP described is exactly what I miss from WoW. EFFORT. The feeling of actually putting effort into everything you did. WoW today is so hollow and faceless because nothing requires any effort anymore.
    14/12/2017 11:15Posted by Naeya
    Yes, it's going to be hell. But at least it will be memorable!

    This is probably the most relevant comment on Vanilla I have read up until now. Thank god SOMEONE shares my mentality.
    14/12/2017 12:38Posted by Loqué
    14/12/2017 11:15Posted by Naeya
    Yes, it's going to be hell. But at least it will be memorable!

    This is probably the most relevant comment on Vanilla I have read up until now. Thank god SOMEONE shares my mentality.
    Until there's not enough players left on your "classic" server to even fill a raid...
    14/12/2017 12:40Posted by Maladi
    Until there's not enough players left on your "classic" server to even fill a raid...

    Rest assured, you won't be missed.

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