8.0 class design better be good

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04/10/2017 21:54Posted by Sarazan
Yes and Blizzard removed a lot of useless abilities from specs or game before MoP.


That is up to each and everone to decide tho. What's useless to you, might not be useless to me.

Take Smoke Bomb as an example (Which is a PvP talent). People might find that useless, but I see it can be used in various example. Imagine Healer getting aggro by a caster boss, and you're quick enough to shadowstep smokebomb the healer, and save the day. Or you can pull many caster mobs closer with smokebombing the team or the raid. This make a niché ability into a fun mechanic. and in this case can seperate a good rogue from a unexperienced one.

What about disarm traps? "well, it took only space on my action bar". But imagine if we had it and could dispel the traps in ToS (the ones that everyone runs into every time). You would be crowned king for doing that.

What about Shiv slowing a Add that you don't want to reach something?
This is just rogue examples on top of my head, I bet every class has some niché spells that can be used in various situation.

I mean stuff like that is what made WoW fun for me. Even if I'm not a raider in Method, or a R1 gladiator. I could still learn some small mechanics that the top 0.1% used, and get the sense of empowerment when I did it. Which is not as easy when you lack a toolkit.

"So many useless abilities". *Sigh*
MoP didn't start the prune and here's why;

In Tbc more abilities were added
In Wrath more abilities were added
In Cata more abilities were added
In MoP more abilities were added
In WoD abilities were removed
In Legion abilities were removed
A lot of class mechanics and class fantasy were removed in MoP, but before that in cata they made their use uncomfortable and sometimes unpleasant: they spoiled talent trees, cut them, and then said 'look, they're bad' and players like 'no sh*t? of course they're, because you ruined them!' - but that's not news, it's already turned into ActiBlizzard's rule. In MoP, they removed extra weapon slot about which I already spoke here https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17616512196#post-12 - it was a big blow to the universal equipment system in the same extent as to the common sense of this collapsing game universe. You just see so narrowly that you can't tie together certain events and consequences. Everything should work as a single thoughtful universal system, not like pieces of *** on the fan. Social sphere (server, interactions) + RPG part (classes, talents, mechanics, abilities, parameters, equipment) + RP (adequacy, degree of correspondence history and events to the world, their sequence and alignment, class and racial fantasy). I'm not saying that everything was done badly, some good additions were made, which by the way then also were deleted for unknown reason. https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17616512196?page=2#post-22 Did you notice that I didn't include spec anywhere?
And we smoothly pass to the next cutting introduced in MoP. Putting boundaries into classes, yes I'm talking about specs. (as I said, cataclysm has already done this because: mastery and lack of access to several branches at once; but this became clear and undisguised fact in Pandaria) I would have understood removal of boundaries between branches of trees and at first glance it seemed so, but no - it was the masked borders. This direction became quite concrete in WoD and Legion completed working process from previous 2 iterations.
You can rightly note that classes are also boundaries, but by doing this you will forget about class fantasy, and its realization in the game with it - class mechanics. Removing boundaries between classes will conflict with RP-part of the game formed, as well as removing boundaries between factions. So every deleting of 'useless' totem from spellbook you also kicking RP to the @с and thus limit the situations in which class can show itself, reveal, boast, be useful. This is foundation of this game and removing it's like removing a game.
You can also ask why class and racial fantasy are included in RP, not in RPG. 'RPG' is just a numerical implementation of lore and RP, but RP always has a dominant role in matters of fantasy. You can already feel in word 'fantasy' that it's about interesting stories and heroes - this is soul of the game. And when tearing the soul of the game you're tring to pull process into cyber competitions, which weren't the game originally designed for, it will have serious consequences.
And that's, children, how I met your.. *cough* I mean how the stuff really works.
Alternative perspective on MoP can be found here https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/2380623-Why-is-MOP-getting-so-much-praise-lately?p=48975763&viewfull=1#post48975763

Do you know one little also-moment why old PCs stop coping? It's very simple, not just because of 'modern' graphics. Remember millions numbers of damage and healing, unrealistically large values of characteristics, but even with hideing them with addons and squeeze numbers computer still needs to count them, so you need more memory for variables, more time for operations. Reason: removal of right (RPG-wise) secondary parameters that are healthy for balance, which didn't affect growth of main characteristics, but merely controlled stability and organization of 'outgoing figures'. So already in LK https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17616622305?page=3#post-44 began an incommensurate increase in main characteristics (well, what else do to make characters be stronger, they already deleted some usefull stuff). Further more: old team that still could fix something left deauring LK and new ones didn't understand what was happening and continued to delete characteristics, thinking that this would help, so process accelerated even more. And now look at Legion - the bullsh*t of the gray mare - everything is interdependent

Again, read everything here
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17616771936?page=2#post-32
there is more then enough information.
Please roll Ret spec back to WoD design!
not WoD, because seals, auras and blessings, but LK! https://imgur.com/a/yQlFB (first 2 pictures, it's from quite a different thread, but they related to this one)
When people ask to unprune abilities and I look at my Priest I have to ask: "Which ones and why?"
https://i.imgur.com/AS54GIW.gif Because of synergy, real class fantasy (RP), functionality, and in the end, question should be formulated quite differently: Why, hell, not? - We did have them and we were fine!
'Silly' counter-question: why call one and the same spell by different names for different specs (artificial difference, dissimulation of complication), when it's better and more right to have 1 toolkit for the whole class, but modifier will work differently (talents) at the player's will (= choice) without changing name?

ps Really, is it so hard? We have already talked about almost everything before, I don't want to duplicate the same information in each topic again, for proving to the next laggard creatures where and why they are wrong.
04/10/2017 23:38Posted by Vademica
04/10/2017 21:54Posted by Sarazan
Yes and Blizzard removed a lot of useless abilities from specs or game before MoP.


That is up to each and everone to decide tho. What's useless to you, might not be useless to me.

Take Smoke Bomb as an example (Which is a PvP talent). People might find that useless, but I see it can be used in various example. Imagine Healer getting aggro by a caster boss, and you're quick enough to shadowstep smokebomb the healer, and save the day. Or you can pull many caster mobs closer with smokebombing the team or the raid. This make a niché ability into a fun mechanic. and in this case can seperate a good rogue from a unexperienced one.

What about disarm traps? "well, it took only space on my action bar". But imagine if we had it and could dispel the traps in ToS (the ones that everyone runs into every time). You would be crowned king for doing that.

What about Shiv slowing a Add that you don't want to reach something?
This is just rogue examples on top of my head, I bet every class has some niché spells that can be used in various situation.

I mean stuff like that is what made WoW fun for me. Even if I'm not a raider in Method, or a R1 gladiator. I could still learn some small mechanics that the top 0.1% used, and get the sense of empowerment when I did it. Which is not as easy when you lack a toolkit.

"So many useless abilities". *Sigh*


I didn't say what is useless and I didn't say that Blizzard do everything well. But for example, Frost DK in MoP: Death and Decay, Blood Boil, Pestilence and these things were useless. Pure dps abilities, but you never used these spells.
I prefer Legion model of classes where fire mage is fire mage, frost is frost, arcane is arcane. In SoO, frost mage didn't use Blizzard, but arcane explosion (I dont like this), but I have not problem with spells like ice block.
My thought is (and I already said it), that Blizzard changed their class policy before MoP and classes in Legion are more or less same like MoP classes (They changed few spells, but they dont changed core abilities).
Of course, Classes looked totally different in Wotlk than MoP or Legion.
05/10/2017 01:47Posted by Sarazan
for example, Frost DK in MoP: Death and Decay, Blood Boil, Pestilence and these things were useless. Pure dps abilities, but you never used these spells.
Just because you cant figure out a use for them doesnt make them useless.

Saying something is useless means it has no use. I can see plenty of use for those abilities ex. Stopping a rogue from capping a flag, getting out players from stealth, getting in combat so that a rogue can not sap you, pulling mobs to the tank. etc etc.

For someone claiming to be of such high skill level as yourself you sure seem to lack allot of basic game knowledge.
05/10/2017 01:47Posted by Sarazan
Frost DK in MoP: Death and Decay, Blood Boil, Pestilence and these things were useless.


Iirc, you had 2 diseases and Howling Blast only applied one, how to spread both in a AoE/multi-target situation then?

As someone else said;

05/10/2017 06:07Posted by Babybackribb
Just because you cant figure out a use for them doesnt make them useless.

Saying something is useless means it has no use. I can see plenty of use for those abilities ex. Stopping a rogue from capping a flag, getting out players from stealth, getting in combat so that a rogue can not sap you, pulling mobs to the tank. etc etc.

For someone claiming to be of such high skill level as yourself you sure seem to lack allot of basic game knowledge.


Cant add anything to that.

Also, if you dont believe him or me;

http://www.mop-veins.tk/frost-death-knight-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities

Look at the "Multiple Target Rotation" to see that you are wrong.
04/10/2017 21:54Posted by Sarazan
I don't understand why people want old talent tree. Yes, It looks cool and hardcore, but in real, you will have 43 from 51 points everytime (you must have these talents) and next 8 points you can put between 3-4 situacion talents and next talents are useless for your specialization. Yes, if you are roleplayer and you dont care about dps, you can have feral-balance builds.

perhaps... for this very reason? Like... i kind of liked being "whole" and not have my access to dealing with ST/Cleave/AoE gated behind choosing one.
Game was much easier to learn and play when you had all your abilities all the time you were supposed to.

04/10/2017 21:54Posted by Sarazan
Many people see only numbers (how many spells are in spellbook, how many talents we have, how many spells we have on bars), but they ignore other more important things.

Indeed. Back "in the days" you had a lot of abilities but you only used specifically needed abilities at the moment. Now for instance you are doing more or less that same but have to watch how each ability interacts with many other abilities.
Gameplay wise, that's probably for the better, yet I ain't sure if I like it.
For instance as WW/MW monk before you use your AoE you have to buff it by hitting as many unique mobs as you can with your single target ability, wheres before you hit that AoE button as soon as you had to.
05/10/2017 01:47Posted by Sarazan
I didn't say what is useless and I didn't say that Blizzard do everything well. But for example, Frost DK in MoP: Death and Decay, Blood Boil, Pestilence and these things were useless. Pure dps abilities, but you never used these spells.

These things are great example for pruning IMHO actually. And I agree with you at that matter.
My most important gripe about Legion class design is.. one again... overengineered talent trees. Like... I cannot take kind of fun stuff because they are on that same row with... actually performing stuff.
Also, I have been thinking of it recently... I quite liked MoP for what it did to actual "class fantasy" where say all rogue/hunter specs had almost that same toolkit, but varied on their core way of dealing damage. Legion was more of "spec fantasy" really. Not sure if I like that.
05/10/2017 06:07Posted by Babybackribb
Just because you cant figure out a use for them doesnt make them useless.

Saying something is useless means it has no use. I can see plenty of use for those abilities ex. Stopping a rogue from capping a flag, getting out players from stealth, getting in combat so that a rogue can not sap you, pulling mobs to the tank. etc etc.

For someone claiming to be of such high skill level as yourself you sure seem to lack allot of basic game knowledge.
Consecration was low damage ST but whenever we had to hold ground I would keep it up as long as I could in battleground or arenas. Even if I noticed slight movement from the stealthed rogue I knew he could get to us without going out of it, wasting atleast backstab or pressuring him to stay off and allow us to heal. I would still take it only if it wasn't a talent or shared rows with actually talents doing reasonble damage. I even used it to stay mounted and if I thought I caught the rogue trying to sneak on us I quickly popped it. But nope utility is bad, prune it.
blizzard plz leave current specs i like my key bot plz.. it never fails me atm i dont no my spellz i need bot i cant play else dh too harddd

sarcasm intended

but rly if they removed Symbiosis after allowing it be for only a single expansion...
05/10/2017 14:52Posted by Zbir
I quite liked MoP for what it did to actual "class fantasy" where say all rogue/hunter specs had almost that same toolkit, but varied on their core way of dealing damage.
Exactly. "Spec" stands for "specialization". Say you are a hunter, but you are "specialized" in taming beast aka. Beast master.

What Legion did was make specializations in to almost different classes with almost no shared abilities with your class (varies from class to class ofc), along with removing so much fun and interesting mechanics (specially compared to pre WoD era).
05/10/2017 17:03Posted by Babybackribb
Exactly. "Spec" stands for "specialization". Say you are a hunter, but you are "specialized" in taming beast aka. Beast master.

What Legion did was make specializations in to almost different classes with almost no shared abilities with your class

thats where I was going, apparently tho, neither blizz nor players liked it, oh well
29/09/2017 00:49Posted by Babybackribb
28/09/2017 11:42Posted by Zbir
if next expansion will have as bad class design as legion does, i am out regardless of "content" it will offer, It won't even matter
Me too. I have every class at 110 except warrior (lvl 106), and have tried every spec in the game in order to find something fun to play. After the pruning and class fantasy thingy i simply can not find a single spec i enjoy playing anymore, therefore it ruins my whole WoW experience. So its safe to say if classes dont improve hugely in 8.0 im out too.


feel you... first time in my wow life that I strangle to find a spec to enjoy.. I dont think is the pruning though, cause I did had fun in TBC for example when rotation was 2-3 buttons....

I guess what I like, is a very simple but fluid rotation that will not feel "clunky" and many many situational / flavor spells... For example, on my paladin I loved my Auras... I loved changing to a resistance aura and make an impact... I loved having buffs for each class / role. It wasnt a complex rotation, but it had many situationals that did matter...
Game now is cluttered beyond sane levels. No wonder they can't get it right.
Too many talents, pvp talents, set bonuses, trinkets, legendaries, artifact traits, crucible traits etc. They just don't have a chance to pay attention to everything and now it all interacts with... everything else. I'd prefer more of "coherent" and polished designed classes than fk ton of random "choices" most of which are bad anyway.
28/09/2017 11:55Posted by Lyricca
I personaly think this expansion is the best class design I've seen in many years.


LMAO
19 upvotes
28/09/2017 11:55Posted by Lyricca
I personaly think this expansion is the best class design I've seen in many years.


Just no.
Good class design kinda equals good ability to get the most of of it. That goes completely against the mantra of show me the money.
05/10/2017 05:14Posted by Sarazan
I prefer Legion model of classes where fire mage is fire mage, frost is frost, arcane is arcane.

Why does arcane or fire mage have the ice block spell then? :o
04/10/2017 04:48Posted by Starbringer
Pruning was bad since.. When?

Remember back in TBC (you probably don't because you obviously didn't play) when we had this... Spellbook upwards 10 pages long of mostly useless spells that you never used in any circumstance because the content for said spell was outdated..

Yeah. I do too. Thank God I don't have to have 10 bars of useless Abilities. Nevermind the monstrocity the old Talent Tree would have become over the years.......
Was I upset when they pruned back then? !@#$ yes, I felt like I lost vital parts of my class - did it matter in the long run? Not one !@#$ing bit. Do I understand why they started to prune back then 10 years down the line. %^-* yes I do. Would've been swamped in useless talents and abilities years ago if they hadn't pruned.


But just because you need a shave, it doesn't mean that you should cut to the bone... or in the bone.

Agreed things needed pruning, because of all what you mentioned, which i clearly remember myself. But the degree of it, which we have in legion, is just too much of it.
27/10/2017 15:37Posted by Jinsk
28/09/2017 11:55Posted by Lyricca
I personaly think this expansion is the best class design I've seen in many years.


LMAO
19 upvotes


That's the result of removing the downvote button.

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