Open Letter from a Private Server Developer

Classic Discussion
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19/11/2017 10:10Posted by Naeya
19/11/2017 06:13Posted by Tondy
Besides, ONE client for both modern and classic makes more sense,

It's seperate data. It's ludicrous to think you wouldn't need a seperate client.

I'm well aware of the fact that there's separate data in there. But what you mentioned are 3D models (landscape), and those compress REALLY well. There's still the ENTIRE world of Kalimdor and EK with the same textures as before, forest ambiences -- and enemies with the same textures, sounds and animations as Classic.

Basically - the stuff that HAVEN'T changed outweighs the new by a ludicrous amount. Easily.

Of course, there could be other technical challenges that makes a single client too much hassle, but as far as data goes - those who aren't going to play Classic would definitely NOT take a very big hit of extra space.

Legion, Classic, they're both WoW, and it should be one and the same client. And I think most people would have a character in Classic, or a few, and Blizzard would want people to play both, so a single client would make even more sense in terms of convenience.
this man has a point on overtuned PVP gear from the start of the game and that was something i was discussing with my friend the other day. i was talking about witch dungeons i would farm etc and he replied " bro, forget all that and lets pvp from the moment we hit 60 and just get the sets". the stats may be heavy on stamina for casters etc but they still surpass alot of the items from stratholme and DM. so i think that should be taken into consideration on how to and when to implement pvp gear and how powerfull it should be.
nice post, thanks!
11/11/2017 19:37Posted by Voltaire
Sorry, want this to stay somewhere visible:

How about ENGLISH speaking Megaservers? (EU + NA + AU/NZ)

I remember back in 2005 trying to join a BG 30 minutes after the raid had ended and seeing a 1h 15 minute estimated wait timer. The server turned into a ghost town and went into sleep just as the players that logged off at night.

Playing vanilla WoW on popular private servers over the years was like playing WoW on steroids. It was an unique blast, something I hadn't even experienced back in 2005.

The world felt alive 24/7.

It was ALWAYS primetime in one of the 3 english speaking world regions. As an European I could log in at 09:00 AM and raid/group/PvP with Australians or log in at 02:00 AM and raid/group/PvP with the american playerbase. It also was the same way for the Americans, Aussies and Newzealanders.

Groups, dungeons, BGs and PUG raids going on around the clock no matter the time. 4 minute BG queues at 04:00 AM etc. 3-4 Alterac valleys going on at 05:00 in the morning etc.

There was something cool about the european guilds passing on the torch to the americans every night and 8 hours later, as europeans are waking up, the americans passing on the torch to the AU/NZ primetime community, so that they could once again pass the torch back to us as we log on after work/school rinse and repeat.

All the top guilds from all the timezones joked around with each other, helped each other out or in some cases had rivalries with each other. It added a cool social element to the game. Brought all the communities closer together.

obviously the non english speaking regions would have to be kept separated, but EU, NA and AU/NZ have proven over the years that they could play together, understand each other and get along in general.

Have a day off? No problem PvP till you fall asleep behind the keyboard or run UBRS until the break of dawn.

This would also benefit people working in shifts or at night in general.
It would also be less work for Blizzard and it would clearly benefit the community and bring it closer together.

It seems like blizzard has already merged NA and AU/NZ, so we are already half way there. it also removes the need for battlegroups/phasing etc. They could make in-game day-night cycles based on local time, not make them server sided. Wouldn't change anything gameplay-wise and would make the atmosphere less depressing for individual timezones.

Blizzard initially kept the regions separated due to the enthernet/networking hardware issues that were present 10+ years ago, resulting in high latency for some regions, but right now technology has evolved enough to make megaservers a reality around 2018-2020.

Around the time 5G internet releases to the public, the base latency (ping) issues should be sorted (that's the same reason many entertainment service providers are trying to convert themselves into subscription-based streaming services by that time.) So everybody should have decent latency.

What do you think about classic ENGLISH SPEAKING megaservers where EU,NA and AU/NZ could co-exist together in harmony?


You don't really seem to understand how the internet works.

1: Your connection means nothing if the server is on the other side of the atlantic from where you live.

2: The more people play on a mega server, the higher your latency will build up during peak hours.

3: Your ping is decided by how much time it takes for information from your computer to travel to the server and back to your computer. If you don't have 500mb/500mb fiber, you can forget about a stable ping below 200ms, and even then you're not guaranteed a stable connection.

4: Time-zone differences. Time-zone differences will make it hard for people who want to do progressive raids and other activities that requires teamwork. Add that on top of the massive lag issue most of us would experience, no thanks.

Mega servers in games that require timing is a horrible idea, period.

Look at how badly it turned out for other games where servers are run in the US.

The Secret World is probably the perfect example of how bad it can get.

Almost all the european players left that game because a: pings were horrible. b: time-zone differences made it impossible to raid or do anything with other players since after the first month, there were barely any europeans left playing.

If you're in the UK, sure, you'll end up with a slightly better connection to a server located in the NA region, but if you're in the central european region, your ping will be horrible, and your gaming experience will be ruined.

As for NZ/AU, no way. I played with someone from Australia in a different game that had servers in the NA and he had 900+ latency whilst i had 280+ latency, and i'm on a 150mb/150mb fiber connection.

Bottom line is.

Technology changes, but the distance the data has to travel and the hoops it has to pass through does not.

It doesn't matter how fast your internet is, if the server is located far outside your region.
I mean, it practically defined the MMORPG genre...
This is completely wrong. The games which defined the MMORPG genre are Ultima Online and Everquest.

You know, young padawan, there were MMORPGs before WoW ;)
01/01/2018 17:28Posted by Geronîmoo
If you don't have 500mb/500mb fiber, you can forget about a stable ping below 200ms

Folks with outdated 1mb/dsl from Europe have about 100-150ms when they are playing on American servers.

But ofc playing with 20ms on European server is alot easier.
01/01/2018 17:51Posted by Maladi
I mean, it practically defined the MMORPG genre...
This is completely wrong. The games which defined the MMORPG genre are Ultima Online and Everquest.

You know, young padawan, there were MMORPGs before WoW ;)


Historically true - but not really sure its correct (I played UO obsessively for around 1998-2005 and then intermittently up to around 2010).
The thing is Everquest and UO topped out at around 200k subscribers.
WoW reached 1.5 million in a matter of months - and about 8 million by the time TBC was released.

It took MMORPG mainstream - and for at least a decade or so defined the genre, with countless WoW clones being released only to decline or fail completely.
Thats why we have NA and EU wow servers -)
And i will be glad to join EU vanilla server when time comes!
01/01/2018 17:51Posted by Maladi
...This is completely wrong. The games which defined the MMORPG genre are Ultima Online and Everquest.

You know, young padawan, there were MMORPGs before WoW ;)


Historically true - but not really sure its correct (I played UO obsessively for around 1998-2005 and then intermittently up to around 2010).
The thing is Everquest and UO topped out at around 200k subscribers.
WoW reached 1.5 million in a matter of months - and about 8 million by the time TBC was released.

It took MMORPG mainstream - and for at least a decade or so defined the genre, with countless WoW clones being released only to decline or fail completely.
I don't see how defining a genre is a matter of millions of subscriptions.
Apples, oranges...
...

Historically true - but not really sure its correct (I played UO obsessively for around 1998-2005 and then intermittently up to around 2010).
The thing is Everquest and UO topped out at around 200k subscribers.
WoW reached 1.5 million in a matter of months - and about 8 million by the time TBC was released.

It took MMORPG mainstream - and for at least a decade or so defined the genre, with countless WoW clones being released only to decline or fail completely.
I don't see how defining a genre is a matter of millions of subscriptions.
Apples, oranges...


It's a matter of influence. The most important thing those prior games did for the direction of the genre was set things up for WOW.
01/01/2018 18:56Posted by Shamany
01/01/2018 17:28Posted by Geronîmoo
If you don't have 500mb/500mb fiber, you can forget about a stable ping below 200ms

Folks with outdated 1mb/dsl from Europe have about 100-150ms when they are playing on American servers.


Sorry, but that's utter bullcrap.
Seems like many people did not get it how legacy/pservers work. That was the reason of blizz invite.. or not? :)
get best patch (atleast for them) - 1.12.1 - client, data already there someone says

1., and if not, its not a big deal to create our "main client - game based on x.y patch" right? Decision is on blizz devs..
2., get it into work - close content/re-do and fix content if needed - server side, to 1.? - if u decide to make it progressive - no single person tells US - and i mean by this blizzard stuff and blizzard customers, in general all people hanging arround with wow, that we cant have our own, new patches in wow classic - to dodge mistakes from past (overpowered gear 1.8 / 1.9 i dont know exactly).
3., integrate into bnet, perform tuning - class, stuff in game, interface
4., you guys speaking about megaservers is pointless, theres enough people to play on the realms, and if not, by the time blizz already deals w this like char transfers, or connect realms.
5., make it most or mirror like vanilla, dont forget to give Hogger a script "You asked for it, now you are dead, noob!". If someone dies, and i guess alot of people dies there.
6., speaking of itemization - i am sure, by the time, and in future by carefull decisions blizz already had choices how to deal with for example pvp gear.. right?
7., QoL changes - and they are? I see no need for them at all, we are asking for classic wow, so we automatically agree with long spirit/dungeon runs, stupid quivers, no quest pointers, no flying, tiny bags, no golds, no mounts <40, long questing etc etc. Mby i ll look up buffing/de-buffing raids. If not, its fine, we asked for that.. Or, do it like Chromie will do. Remove buffs from world bosses and fire resist MC mob in UBRS? i think = add enha/ele shaman stackable fire resist totem buff (to some value not more worth past buffs). You make viable deeps sham for raiding, gz! Atleast one slot.
8., Graphics - this is fun topic for me, because to be fair i take 1.12.1 and maxed it out, perform some console changes, gamma changes which was not so easy playing maximized.. game looks nearly the same as live, yeah models are old but we agree aswell w that when we asked for it.. Yeah some slight changes needed, but thats not a big deal.
9.,I saw a video on YT, where was a suggest to give wow classic monk, its funny because he will automatically become healer only, im telling you.. its bad idea.

GL blizz and make it quick, we want play.. ehm.. painfull questing to 60.. atleast for one month.
Well I think those old talent trees are cool and if you build a new flexible talent tree you can update it with a content patch just like you can with gear and the rest.

The same goes for old boss mechanics and encounters, but only if you generalize instead of replace the script. It can all be 1 client and 1 server, but with different data sets talking to the same code.

Limitation and bad game design are a good thing. They make you more appreciative when you accomplish something or when you see good game design. Letting new players never experience the bad or the difficult, means you are not letting them learn enjoy the good or the pleasant. You would be preventing them to learn from your mistakes, hiding them.

Without these things it will be pretty hard to experience the original difficulty. To enjoy beating it. To play with a frustrating interface. To enjoy the improvements in it.

Much of our preference comes from our aversion of loss. But the biggest loss would be to never lose something at all. If we don't lose something while playing Classic WoW, we're not playing Classic WoW.

"Its better to quest and die...
than never to have quested at all."
Blizzard cant mess alot with Vanilla lovers, because if they do, "Vanilla" lovers including my self won't be playing the game, they will lose alot of players to this mistake, tho i dont mind better graphics new models, mounts as spells with pets, but i do mind dual spec and changinf dungeons Raids from 10man to 5man for example.

i want lvling to be the same!
While it will never be the same due to knowledge of the content before it launches, it can be as close to the original as possible.

- Including the original flawed interface design for flightpaths and Auction Houses.
- Including the strange and illogical tuned talent trees
- Including the old ugly and weak gear.

Without these things, you're playing a streamlined version. You won't know the joy of overcoming limitation. You won't enjoy the new talent tree. You won't enjoy linked auction houses or flight paths. You won't enjoy the stronger gear. Because everything was thrown into your lap.

It sounds crazy, but the more clunky, limited and frustrating classic WoW launches, the better. Because THAT will challenge us to play it to still try and beat it. And WHEN we beat it, which we shall if we persevere and read up, we will feel MUCH better about ourselves than if we would have played some streamlined reddit version.

In Dark Souls, if you die, get good. In Classic WoW, if you don't like it and complain, go back to Retail WoW. Then you're obviously not up to the challenge. Comfort yourself with some pet battles. Here, have some legendaries.

I hope Blizzard developers have the balls to just say this to paying customers and their shareholders. It would be the most epic and amazing thing a game company can do.
I really hope they don't use the same client for both. I don't want to download an extra 30+ GB of stuff that i don't need. Or having to wait hours for my client to update every time they do a big content patch on the Legion servers.
05/01/2018 09:20Posted by Natashabg
I really hope they don't use the same client for both. I don't want to download an extra 30+ GB of stuff that i don't need. Or having to wait hours for my client to update every time they do a big content patch on the Legion servers.
You must really have a crappy Internet connection if patches take you hours!
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Folks with outdated 1mb/dsl from Europe have about 100-150ms when they are playing on American servers.


Sorry, but that's utter bullcrap.

no u

Most folks playing on NA servers from EU reporting to have about 100-150ms, including those who have outdated 1mb dsl connection
Best analysis of the 1.12.1 state of the game, by far.
04/01/2018 05:46Posted by Mailan
While it will never be the same due to knowledge of the content before it launches, it can be as close to the original as possible.

- Including the original flawed interface design for flightpaths and Auction Houses.
- Including the strange and illogical tuned talent trees
- Including the old ugly and weak gear.

Without these things, you're playing a streamlined version. You won't know the joy of overcoming limitation. You won't enjoy the new talent tree. You won't enjoy linked auction houses or flight paths. You won't enjoy the stronger gear. Because everything was thrown into your lap.

It sounds crazy, but the more clunky, limited and frustrating classic WoW launches, the better. Because THAT will challenge us to play it to still try and beat it. And WHEN we beat it, which we shall if we persevere and read up, we will feel MUCH better about ourselves than if we would have played some streamlined reddit version.

In Dark Souls, if you die, get good. In Classic WoW, if you don't like it and complain, go back to Retail WoW. Then you're obviously not up to the challenge. Comfort yourself with some pet battles. Here, have some legendaries.

I hope Blizzard developers have the balls to just say this to paying customers and their shareholders. It would be the most epic and amazing thing a game company can do.


What limitation do you overcome and feel joy? You mention linked AH, bad flightpaths and ugly gear as... limitations that you feel satisfying having to deal with? Well, ok. I get it. There are people that like to be whipped on the balls but they do not take pride on it :P

And really. What are you talking about challenge now? I mean what content have you not found challenging in later wow that makes you feel the urge for a challenge? How would you like to get an answer like "if you don't like people ideas, go back to your private server"?

What is your problem with pet battles? You are not obliged to play. They are not even part of any progression. Tell us. What part of vanilla you think as a challenge apart from leveling? Tell us our story. How easy you cleared content across expansions? Did you find mythic mechanics trivial comparing to MC and BWL? Really tell us your feats!

Why I write all these? Not because I disagree with you. I don't want changes tbh (apart from world buffs). It is because of your attitude. Because of all the stupid things (you cannot call these arguments) you see from people in private world chat. The "legion kids that get gear for free" type of attitude. And you bring this attitude here.

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