Raids were changed constantly in Vanilla

Classic Discussion
I feel from comments a lot of people do not understand how much or often raid content was tuned/changed during the process of Vanilla wow. MC didn't just get easier because you were better geared, but because Blizzard consistently reduced damage, attack speed etc of the fights. Poor Onyxia was savaged by the nerf hammer going from a fight that could wipe even well geared (for the time) raids, to one we could do with less than 10 people. Having 30% better stats does not make that the case!

Elite top 10 raiding guilds reported blizzard retuning and buffing/nerfing fights every few hours - often finding a fight they had wiped for 3 straight days on was suddenly clear-able, or easier fights became more difficult the next week. These changes didn't appear in patch notes since all the changes happened server side, but were very much real.

I think recreating this process will be very important to recreate the Vanilla experience, because just things like better computers and servers will improve dps for some classes (hunters and arms warriors especially), healing performance and even tanking, throwing off the careful tuning and raid testing done in the original game.

I know this may blow the mind of team #NOCHANGES, but we will need to retune
Raids for Wow Classic, and have a program of nerfs, over time to allow more people to complete raiding content just like in the original game.
wait, let me fetch my tinfoil hat and i'll be right with you !
Even if they stick to a 1.12 version I'm happy with it.

Soon people will ask for legit Blizzcons to get their pets from redeemed tickets on the exact time a certain patch launches.

Somewere we have got to draw a line on what's feasable and what's not.
They actually often nerfed bosses. Top raiding guilds were complaining Blizzard would've made them unkillable because they need more time to create new content. Once they were done with that, they nerfed the boss so it could be killed. Sometimes bugs made the bosses unkillable.

But even after the bosses were killable now, Blizzard kept nerfen many of them over time. Mainly to allow new players to catch up more easily.

I hope we get strong bosses so progressing is a thing and raid dungeons are not being cleared within a day after release
30/11/2017 07:26Posted by Fufina
I know this may blow the mind of team #NOCHANGES


What mostly blows my mind is how much more severe the #NOCOMPRENDO is in this 'community'.

The goal of this project has been stated and is on record for all to re-view and is even complemented with a few interviews that go into more detail.

No matter what, eventually this version of Azeroth and the content within, will reach a static phase. The discussions should be about that STATIC phase of the content to be recreated with a choice of ingredients from between 1.1.0 and 1.12.1.

Clearly ALL content should be as attractive, engaging and CLASSIC as possible in its final, on-level STATIC state.
This is exactly why I'm advocating that #nochanges also means #progressivepatches. Let us wade through all those insane ups and downs again.
Yep, good point. People that are fully no changes are probably private server players and haven't played much of vanilla wow retail. Private server's pick a patch and stay with it they don't have the muscle to do anything else.
30/11/2017 09:45Posted by Dropcut
This is exactly why I'm advocating that #nochanges also means #progressivepatches. Let us wade through all those insane ups and downs again.


Not too sure that is actually going to happen. The more i think of it, the more i feel such a re-enactment of events is way too complex.

I can imagine that Classic can maybe be made so that you can progress your character at lvl 60 through an ever increasing difficulty in instances (raids, lvl 60 dungeons) in the same order as they were implemented back in the day.

That way you have a static representation of WoW's full lvl 60 endgame experience (all be it maybe somewhat artificial).

But we'll have to wait and see i guess.
30/11/2017 09:45Posted by Dropcut
This is exactly why I'm advocating that #nochanges also means #progressivepatches. Let us wade through all those insane ups and downs again.
I think there's 3 ways to do this.

1: As you say (I think that's fine, if a bit of work for blizzard)
2: Reduced content patches (e.g. each major content patch, for raid tier or something equally important introduced) and balanced to what was the most balanced point they had for that content patch. (I'm personally a fan of this, I don't advocate for changes, just some sensible rolling up of changes into a coherent patch)
3: They stick to a single patch, just like the private servers do (I think this is a bad solution personally).

But ultimately, we'll see how it goes.
Legion apparently is great for raiding. My son raids with a bunch of rl friends and others and has no interest at all in classic. They are looking forward to seeing what they get in BfA. Why are top raid guilds looking at old raids that they’ve seen before and already completed, especially the pserver raiders? If people are asking for changes and harder raids, that must mean they already know them. Why are they not interested in what’s said be difficult raids in Legion and the upcoming BfA if raiding is their main interest?
I know this was the case in TBC but I don't know much about it in Vanilla. Some things in TBC were like morogrim water elemental adds that's a famous one.

For example here's an old article from nihilium on the subject:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080314074606/http://nihilum.mousesports.com/en/article/60,blizzard_devs__where_money_fails_/0/
30/11/2017 12:21Posted by Purl
Legion apparently is great for raiding. My son raids with a bunch of rl friends and others and has no interest at all in classic. They are looking forward to seeing what they get in BfA. Why are top raid guilds looking at old raids that they’ve seen before and already completed, especially the pserver raiders? If people are asking for changes and harder raids, that must mean they already know them. Why are they not interested in what’s said be difficult raids in Legion and the upcoming BfA if raiding is their main interest?


I am not asking for harder raids, i am saying that Blizzard constantly and carefully tuned raids in Vanilla, and to recreate the original experience Blizzard will need to do the same in Wow Classic, because that tuning will not be the same in 2017 as it was in 2005.

The idea of a single static patch i think is utterly ridiculous because Vanilla was never static, and trying to make it so will create an abomination as far away from Vanilla as if the Retail devs were designing Wow Classic, and decided they needed LFD and LFR added.

As for why I want to play Wow Vanilla, its pretty simple. It is a far better game than retail wow, and on top of that the raiding was more challenging and diverse than retail wow. Modern Blizzard raids, are about patting your head and belly at the same time... Execute your rotation, while playing the MMO version of Just Dance. Sure that is challenging in a way, and as with overcoming any challenge gives you a real buzz of achievement, but in no way is that the only way to make raiding hard, challenging or rewarding, and frankly it gets boring and repetitive after a while to only be challenged like that. The other reason why i want to play Vanilla is i have unfinished business with Naxx, 4 horsemen broke our guild, and i want revenge and to beat them this time and clear Naxx with it as close to being in the original state (ie level of challenge) as possible.
The more i think of it the less i feel for this constant patching.

Vanilla was more about the leveling and the dungeons that were connected to that process.

iirc. endgame raiding was a pretty tiny percentage of the playerbase.
30/11/2017 13:55Posted by Shogath
iirc. endgame raiding was a pretty tiny percentage of the playerbase.


This is pretty inaccurate. People tend to bring up the 1% of the player-base remark a Dev made around TBC, but the context was explicitly about people clearing Naxx.

Raiding, especially by about 12 months in, was common with something like 30% of accounts clearing MC. Which is a pretty good number with the near 10 days /played needed to get to lvl 60 meaning a good chunk of accounts never made it to level 60.

Raiding is vital for Vanilla wow, it drove the economy, it gave progression and kept the community engaged and active. If your more casual and don't make it 60, raiding is still part of your Wow experience, its why you can sell herbs for 10g a stack, its why when you go to capital cities they are full of players and that cool looking Paladin in full tier 2 inspires you to want to make it to lvl 60. When you do dungeons your party mates are often alts of raiders who remain active in the game because of raiding.

Raiding drives the Vanilla community, and that trickles down to all areas of the game - making sure that is recreated is vital to the success of Classic Wow.
30/11/2017 13:55Posted by Shogath
iirc. endgame raiding was a pretty tiny percentage of the playerbase.


Microscopic. One of Blizzard's big concerns were that they were spending all this time on content which only a tiny proportion of the player base got to see. It was their justification for shaking things up in TBC - such as having Kara as a 10 man.

There are many criticisms with the eventual release of LFR - but tourist mode or whatever pejorative does at least mean content is available for all the player base.

Someone may be able to track down the Blue Posts, but I think shortly before the release of TBC they reckoned only 50% of the playerbase had even gone inside Molten Core (and that was mainly due to exploring BRD). Potentially as low as 10% had ever downed a raid boss and under 1% killed a boss in Naxx.

-Edit here.
(This might be an exaggeration, it might be 10% downing Ragnaros, 1% downing Kel'Thuzad. I really struggle with the idea that 30% of active accounts were clearing MC. Maybe right before TBC launched... but I don't think so.)

This time though - at least in percentage terms - a lot more people are going to raid. Its one of the main draws of vanilla.

Anyway I agree with the OP. Content nerfs were at least as significant as gear increase - probably more so. I certainly remember Onyxia becoming a complete joke, towards the end one of our Warlocks used to tank it for a laugh. This is why I'd prefer a 1.1->progression release. It has issues, but I feel its better than a 1.12 sandbox that people will burn through very quickly.

I don't think you can easily mirror the tweaks to content made literally as players came into contact with it but releasing everything in post-nerfed mode won't be great.

To be fair I think you saw even more of this in TBC.
This server has to last. In 10 years someone starting should face the same challenge as someone starting on day 1.

This can only be achieved by making adjustments. The game was deliberately nerfed to get more people through content in preperation for TBC. TBC is never coming (on this server at least). Do we really want to end on a watered down version if the game. It would benefit me, I might actually get to clear more this time round. I'd rather earn it though.
30/11/2017 15:25Posted by Demostravius
This server has to last. In 10 years someone starting should face the same challenge as someone starting on day 1.

This can only be achieved by making adjustments. The game was deliberately nerfed to get more people through content in preperation for TBC. TBC is never coming (on this server at least). Do we really want to end on a watered down version if the game. It would benefit me, I might actually get to clear more this time round. I'd rather earn it though.

I agree completely. The game should have a meaningful progression starting from level 1 to clearing Naxx and this progression should be available any time you start a new character. Content need not be nerfed because everyone will have the time to progress through it.

I'll be happy if all we get is 1.12, but with some small adjustments Classic can be really fun and satisfying.
30/11/2017 12:21Posted by Purl
Legion apparently is great for raiding. My son raids with a bunch of rl friends and others and has no interest at all in classic. They are looking forward to seeing what they get in BfA. Why are top raid guilds looking at old raids that they’ve seen before and already completed, especially the pserver raiders? If people are asking for changes and harder raids, that must mean they already know them. Why are they not interested in what’s said be difficult raids in Legion and the upcoming BfA if raiding is their main interest?


One of life’s big mysteries indeed.
I dont get why so many want changes to classic. And then use useless arguments as to why things is not what they think others think it is.
30/11/2017 23:21Posted by Runedag
I dont get why so many want changes to classic. And then use useless arguments as to why things is not what they think others think it is.


I think many people feel the need to experience Classic WoW. But they are crapping their pants when they realise what a pain in the behind it's gonna be without all the fluff to cushion the journey.

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