"Vanilla" or CLASSIC?

Classic Discussion
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Unfortunately, Blizzard would never ban those addons, because players became lazy and dependent on addons now. Raiding without DBM looks like "wtf u mad bro how is that even possible, r u trolling?" (even though this is not really hard except for maybe second half of mythic raid).
Lots of ppl won't like to do things by their own hands instead of just waiting for some addon warning.
13/04/2018 18:14Posted by Vunde
13/04/2018 18:00Posted by Shogath
Unless maybe for the raiders/endgamers because now they would have to rely entirely on their own skills instead of leaning on addons.


I'm sorry but I really have to protest here a bit: untargetable/cluttered healthbars aka healthbars on top of each other have nothing to do with 'lacking skill'.

Healers had raidframes back then, however crappy. I know you needed decursive on the side because decursing in your raidframes wasn't possible (for me and my addons at least).

On LH I use a vanilla grid+clique and I can decurse inside the raidframes, so I'm not sure what part of all that was me being a noob and what part was technology. My experience was that I didn't know enough different addons that I would know what was best (because I was a huge noob). Not to mention that was the start of wrath already, tbf.

I cannot ask everyone to not use those addons either because I happened to be an incredible noob back then. That's just... my experience, man. And trying to recreate that experience for me changes the game for someone else.
If it isn't a case of 'lacking skill' it's a case of bad gamedesign.

I'm sorry but whenever a game forces their paying customers to install third party software (or addons) to be able to play their game i find that just as reprehensible as people using them for extra advantage.

Either way the design of the encounter is failing.

When i finally reached endgame i was immediatly presented with a list of crap that i had to install or else GTFO. Not to mention the arrogant tone with which this was presented to me. So i took the GTFO option and never looked back.

At the end of the day endgame/raiding is nothing more than a few glorified instances and i could get loads of that in standard leveling content, without the arrogance.

But then Blizzard decided to slowly castrate the whole leveling experience in favor of endgame ... and here we are.

So even though i understand that Vanilla is also endgame i couldn't care less how screwed up it turns out in Classic. Vanilla was about pre-endgame anyway imo.

And since i never used any addons in the first years (and even now only use them for bag organisation and similar functions) i'll never miss them.
As far as im concerned they are not part of my personal experience with Vanilla at all.

But all of the above doesn't mean im on a 'anti-addons' campaign. I just wouldn't care whether they go or stay and if it solves a bunch of dillemma's for Blizzard they can leave them all out as far as i'm concerned.
13/04/2018 18:26Posted by Astralogion
It's not a competition for you, because you want casual-vanilla-wow with healing prediction and BigWigs to hold your hand every move. You cannot handle to click on a raidframe before healing you have to have cursor-hover because you lack the strength to press a mouse button.


then play without them ?

why you need to force feed your opinion down to everyone's throat ?

jesus, just play without addons and be happy, like i said, if you can't manage to scrap together 40people out from millions to play without addons, stop blaming the freakin addons.

besides, vanilla was CASUAL, you don't NEED addons, or modern addons to beat moltencore, bwl and AQ, they are SUPER casual raids in modern standards, why are you acting as if you are somekind of Super badass if you ever manage to clear one ? I explained this on several case, our guild, in modern standards, was Super mega casual guild, and we managed to clear whole AQ40.

if some random guild is using modern addons in raids, how is it going to affect your guild raids, someway it didn't affect in vanilla ?

13/04/2018 18:26Posted by Astralogion
In other words, they have actually experienced wow without addons.


yes, they have experienced WoW, where they have not used option, what is your point. Doesn't change the fact, even if you never used that option, it was still there for everyone.

You can still choose not to use that option whatever you got modern addons or not, like you we're able to do in vanilla, nothing has changed and thus, your argument that "everyone" has experienced wow without addons, is completely irrelevant for the experience, because you can experience that with, or without modern addons, if you remove that option however, the game has literally changed.

edit :

besides, it's not completely abnormal to have some people NEVER used original raidframe, you could see how crap it is WITHOUT using it, and thus you NEVER used original raidframe, and always used addon, this is not 1 out of million case, LOTS of people NEVER used original raidframe during vanilla, because they joined later to raids, and others pointed them to addons.
13/04/2018 20:19Posted by Cai
Doesn't change the fact, even if you never used that option, it was still there for everyone.


That was never the point, I don't care if it was an option. We are talking about what is an authentic personal preference. In any case, nobody had the option to turn on legion-addons, which is what I am against. The broken addons of vanilla, I have no quarrel against.

13/04/2018 20:19Posted by Cai
You can still choose not to use that option whatever you got modern addons or not, like you we're able to do in vanilla, nothing has changed and thus, your argument that "everyone" has experienced wow without addons, is completely irrelevant for the experience, because you can experience that with, or without modern addons, if you remove that option however, the game has literally changed.


The choose thing again. <.<

If you are insisting on choosing, why don't you just go along with the argument and choose to play super casual and wait till everyone has cleared everything and then get boosted in their pugs.

You can experience an altered vanilla with the legion addons not how vanilla was, it is alot easier. It does not represent vanilla, at all.

The argument that all has experience wow sometimes without addons is not irrelevant, since I'm comparing it with what is a valid personal preference to legion-addons.

13/04/2018 20:19Posted by Cai
besides, it's not completely abnormal to have some people NEVER used original raidframe, you could see how crap it is WITHOUT using it, and thus you NEVER used original raidframe, and always used addon, this is not 1 out of million case, LOTS of people NEVER used original raidframe during vanilla, because they joined later to raids, and others pointed them to addons.


Many used original raid frames, but many also choose addons. I never argued that people never used addons, heck, I even used addons. But we cannot get those addons in their broken forms.

If we add the legion addons, we are gonna get healing predition, proper range tracking, questhelper and all that filth. Healing prediction alone makes encounters atleast 50 % easier for everyone because healers conserve their mana almost flawlessly.

It's basically cheating, the game is not fun with it.

As I also said, I do not mind the cosmetic parts of addons, how they look, I just mind the gamebreaking stuff. If someone wants a nicer raidframe, by all means, add it. But do not add healing prediction and the other stuff.
When i finally reached endgame i was immediatly presented with a list of crap that i had to install or else GTFO. Not to mention the arrogant tone with which this was presented to me. So i took the GTFO option and never looked back.

At the end of the day endgame/raiding is nothing more than a few glorified instances and i could get loads of that in standard leveling content, without the arrogance.

But then Blizzard decided to slowly castrate the whole leveling experience in favor of endgame ... and here we are.


Well, tbf the bold part is why I really can't feel a drive to go "extreme" on raiding in vanilla... the rest was just as good, maybe even more fun, and it didn't require your screen to be cluttered with stuff.

And the underlined stuff is yeah... a bit depressing but true, at least in my book.

My personal stance is that I wouldn't care if addons would be deleted, but in the grand scheme of things it would change vanilla for a lot of people. It would still be a change no different than any other personal change people have asked for.
14/04/2018 07:50Posted by Vunde
My personal stance is that I wouldn't care if addons would be deleted, but in the grand scheme of things it would change vanilla for a lot of people. It would still be a change no different than any other personal change people have asked for.
I think the same about it.

Did we accidentally end the thread?

hehehe .... :D
The argument that all has experience wow sometimes without addons is not irrelevant, since I'm comparing it with what is a valid personal preference to legion-addons.


the fact, you can choose not to use option, whatever you have modern, old or no addons at all makes it irrelevant, it is standard UI / raidFrame / whatever.

if modern addons, somehow disabled ability to ever use standard option, you would have point, but it doesn't, so it is completely irrelevant when we are talking about experience.

and that's why, only thing that matters, is this : has anyone ever experienced vanilla WoW without addon option ? no, no they haven't, they are going to experience original UI whatever there is addons or not.

Vanilla addon API allowed people to create much more powerful addons, than what modern addons ever is able to be, vanilla addons, we're much more powerful than modern addons, so you can't use excuse that modern addons is more powerful and that's why everyone is "forced" to use them, vanilla addons we're more powerful, and that's why this logic is irrelevant, and you we're equally much "forced" to use addons, as you are today.

besides, what you consider cheating, is your opinion only, you don't get to decide what is cheating and what is not, there is no such addon API(not old one, not modern one), that says modern addons is cheating, and thus, they are not cheating, so stop saying they are, it is what you personally consider cheating. While i do understand where you are coming from, and i also agree that some addons are too powerful and should be considered cheating.

in vanilla, healbot etc, was generally considered cheating by many people, that's why it was changed, because there was a LOT of people not using them, and shaming anyone who did.

so, my question is this :

if you we're forced to choose between authentic vanilla addons ( in their broken form, including HEALBOT, DECURSEBOT, etc ) and modern addons(modern API, that makes botting cheating.), what would you choose ?

my bottomline point is this :

even if we can agree 100% that there are some addons that is too powerful, disabling all addons is not the solution, while it may fix that one or even two problems. It would also create whole dozen more, some that are not possible to predict beforehand, there are many people who loved WoW because it was so customizible, people generally don't like when difficulty comes from poor control, having original UI and not being to see who is cursed or not definetly increases the difficulty, no doubt, but when people have to click clutched players that is overlapping, the difficulty comes from poor control, and people don't like it, even if it makes the fight harder.

let's take some old games for example, there are games that is super hard, but they are considered crap, because the difficulty comes from poor controls, not the actual difficulty.

Then there are old games, that is super hard, and is loved because controls are perfect, and difficulty comes from the game.
14/04/2018 10:35Posted by Cai
vanilla addons, we're much more powerful than modern addons,


And they were banned.

<.<

14/04/2018 10:35Posted by Cai
so you can't use excuse that modern addons is more powerful and that's why everyone is "forced" to use them, vanilla addons we're more powerful, and that's why this logic is irrelevant, and you we're equally much "forced" to use addons, as you are today.


Again, they were banned. After that, the addons that were allowed were still inaccurate. Look at Kungen or any other top-raider, do you often see a !@#$load of addons? No. You have BigWigs that doesn't even have a timerbar, it only says "this happens in 5 seconds" and it was often inaccurate.

They still didn't have heal prediction, range-checker didn't even work in vanilla.

14/04/2018 10:35Posted by Cai
if you we're forced to choose between authentic vanilla addons ( in their broken form, including HEALBOT, DECURSEBOT, etc ) and modern addons(modern API, that makes botting cheating.), what would you choose ?


They were banned in vanilla therefore they are irrelevant. These were not supposed to be in the game. Modern addons are not as powerful but as similar, and if they were in vanilla, they'd probably ban them aswell.

14/04/2018 10:35Posted by Cai
even if we can agree 100% that there are some addons that is too powerful, disabling all addons is not the solution


I think it's a good solution. But as I also stated several times now, I am not against the cosmetic addons if that's all it is. If you want Elv UI look in vanilla, by all means, but remove the modern features such as healing prediction etc. Removing all addons is just a simpler solution for blizzard.

14/04/2018 10:35Posted by Cai
the difficulty comes from poor control, and people don't like it, even if it makes the fight harder.


Yes, but that's something people will just have to deal with. All vanilla has been about is saying to retail players: "Just deal with the rough edges of vanilla".
Can someone give a TL;DR of those 15 pages between Cai and Astralogion?
14/04/2018 16:47Posted by Агграэль
Can someone give a TL;DR of those 15 pages between Cai and Astralogion?

TL;DR

(this is regarding the addons argument, not necessarily the other points I bring up.)

A long TL;DR perhaps, but atleast it's not 15 pages. :P

Cai:

Legion-addons exist now, but didn't exist in 2004. Still, this is a valid experience and an authentic experience that people had back in vanilla, even though the 2018 addons didn't exist. Still, because addons existed in vanilla and was an option, Cai still thinks that overpowered addons is the same and serves the same function anyway.

Astralogion:

Legion-addons didn't exist in vanilla therefore they as a personal preference is absolutley impossible. It's an opinion, but it's not fact based on experience. No addons at all is therefore a closer representation to vanilla than what legion-addons are.

Why? - Most people played without addons for sometime and therefore has experienced wow without addons. Nobody ever played with legion addons in vanilla and is therefore impossible to be a personal experience.

You can say that I you played on Nostalrius and really liked the healing prediction, legion-addons and want vanilla to be that way. Sure, you can have that opinion. But you cannot say that this is a personal experience that is authentic to the original vanilla experience back in 2004.

I also stated that I am okay with cosmetic addons for the looks, aslong as they don't bring legion-addons features, such ad healing prediction etc.

Basically.
14/04/2018 16:47Posted by Агграэль
Can someone give a TL;DR of those 15 pages between Cai and Astralogion?


And then they married and had make up sex for years.
14/04/2018 16:52Posted by Astralogion
Legion-addons exist now, but didn't exist in 2004. Still, this is a valid experience and an authentic experience that people had back in vanilla, even though the 2018 addons didn't exist. Still, because addons existed in vanilla and was an option, Cai still thinks that overpowered addons is the same and serves the same function anyway.


way to put words in my mouth, again, cool.

i never said modern addons is representing authentic vanilla experience.

all i have ever said is that no addons at all isn't representing vanilla experience either, thus it's a matter of opinion whatever is closer.

your opinion that "because everyone played with no addons at somepoint during vanilla" is invalid, because you can play without addons, whatever there is modern, old or no addons at all. Having modern addons, doesn't disable your ability to play without addons at any way, or form. Having old vanilla addons doesn't stop you from playin without addons, having no addons at all forces(<- this didn't exist in vanilla, at any point) you to play without addons.

sigh...

yes, modern addons can serve same function as old addons, note the word "can", if blizzard isn't able to make unique API to classic that makes all extra functions disabled that didn't exist in vanilla, to me it's lesser evil than banning all addons, for reasons i have stated multiple times :

- people liked wow because it was highly customizable.

- people don't like when difficulty comes from clunky controls, yes, vanilla addons fixed this, and so does modern addons, having original UI doesn't <- this didn't exist in vanilla, you we're never forced to have difficulty from clunky control, it was never rough edge in vanilla, and it's not a rough edge that should be added into classic, because that rough edge never existed in vanilla.
14/04/2018 17:38Posted by Cai
banning all addons


Exactly these people who want to have no addons in classic I meant to see the world through their pink eyeglasses.

Maybe these people really played without addons, only there were already at that time raidframe addons, threat meter addons, DPS meter, decurse addons, Healing addons and others.

Those who doubt it can feed their browser and look for old raid videos where you see such things in the UI clearly.
14/04/2018 18:29Posted by Bearly
Maybe these people really played without addons


what i don't understand is, is that they can do that with or without modern addons in classic.

if they think modern addons is ruining the game, then dont - use - them.

i NEVER used healbot during vanilla, it was hated addon By many, including me, i don't enjoy sitting in raid spamming 1 button that does all i would otherwise have to do, i knew perfectly well it existed, i didn't use it because it would have ruined my experience, i had OPTION, i had OPTION what addons to use what i enjoyed, and what i saw as BAD for my experience, i didn't use them.
31/03/2018 15:06Posted by Astralogion
31/03/2018 11:59Posted by Exemplis
Invalid argument @rag kill. It's A TEN YEAR OLD GAME LOL. Anyone and their mother could do rag in a week if the tanks had fr gear. And addons we have now compared to 10yrs ago. Stop it snowflake


Which is the exact point of my topic? xD

Just had to make a more dramatic post cus I love seeing the 'vanillaflakes' cry about the minimalistic change or suggestion

Also guys, addons werent invented in 2007, it was in vanilla and theyre here to stay. Dont like them, dont download them. Is that to difficult for you? I suggest you go play outside in a sandbox with your old toys.
14/04/2018 21:36Posted by Exemplis
Just had to make a more dramatic post cus I love seeing the 'vanillaflakes' cry about the minimalistic change or suggestion
You mean you didn't have a clue what the tread was about but just decided to jump in anyway. :)

14/04/2018 21:36Posted by Exemplis
I suggest you go play outside in a sandbox with your old toys.
We'd like to but if we do someone inside will wreck our other toy's.
14/04/2018 21:48Posted by Shogath
14/04/2018 21:36Posted by Exemplis
Just had to make a more dramatic post cus I love seeing the 'vanillaflakes' cry about the minimalistic change or suggestion
You mean you didn't have a clue what the tread was about but just decided to jump in anyway. :)

14/04/2018 21:36Posted by Exemplis
I suggest you go play outside in a sandbox with your old toys.
We'd like to but if we do someone inside will wreck our other toy's.


Letss not forget how opiniated you are towards, no addons, cause u dind't care for raiding much.
So solution, build in UI customization option and banning all addons? I'm in.
15/04/2018 09:56Posted by Evilanimals
So solution, build in UI customization option and banning all addons? I'm in.


only if they manage to create all the addons that existed in vanilla, exacly like they we're i'm in.

ofcourse this is just silly pipedream that's not possible.

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