"Vanilla" or CLASSIC?

Classic Discussion
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looking at your account you didn't even play wow so how can you comment on classic servers
21/04/2018 21:12Posted by Seinfeldd
the only change i would accept is a barber shop, so that bald ppl can experience this virtual atleast


I see what you did there
21/04/2018 21:19Posted by Camotard
looking at your account you didn't even play wow so how can you comment on classic servers


wot
You are still posting like the whole future of Classic depends on your arguments. I am sure you both posted same things more than 2 times over and over again in this thread.
IT'S TIME TO STOP.
21/04/2018 23:47Posted by Агграэль
You are still posting like the whole future of Classic depends on your arguments. I am sure you both posted same things more than 2 times over and over again in this thread.
IT'S TIME TO STOP.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0SmqbBIpQ
21/04/2018 19:03Posted by Astralogion
"Vanilla" = Nostalrius version of vanilla where legion-like addons rule the players etc.


21/04/2018 19:03Posted by Astralogion
Classic = Authentic Vanilla Experience (As close as possible as it was back then)


Classic = vanilla + 14 years of knowledge.

#NoChanges,

Stop the trolling.

U know nothing of addons.
22/04/2018 09:07Posted by Nostalxrius
21/04/2018 19:03Posted by Astralogion
"Vanilla" = Nostalrius version of vanilla where legion-like addons rule the players etc.


21/04/2018 19:03Posted by Astralogion
Classic = Authentic Vanilla Experience (As close as possible as it was back then)


Classic = vanilla + 14 years of knowledge.

#NoChanges,

Stop the trolling.

U know nothing of addons.


You stop the trolling.

You want Legion-like addons, you are not #NoChanges.
22/04/2018 12:03Posted by Astralogion
You stop the trolling.

You want Legion-like addons, you are not #NoChanges.


I don't know what demons are torturing you, but there were even much more automatic addons in classic than today.
For example, there was a healer addon which completely automatically selected the optimal rank for the spell.

There were bag addons, auction house addons, UI addons, Quest addons, threat meter addons, DPS meter addons and much more.

Likewise, the web pages were gradually filled with all sorts of information.

If you did not use all these things then it does not mean that these things did not exist at the time!

If you do not like these things, then play in the future without these tools. But stop saying that these things have something to do with #ProChanges!!!

There will be no one in the chat today asking where the quest NPC is, either you will use an addon or you can look online in a few seconds and answer the question yourself.
And some players did that at the time.

So if you played comparatively backward then this is perfectly ok and you can still play like this today, but damned stop telling any nonsense that this would have something to do with changes.

People like you who claim that these tools did not exist at that time have a look at classic which does not correspond to reality, but this look is marred by the typical pink glasses!

Sorry to have to tell you this, but your point of view is very, very pink!
bearly : that's what i've been trying to explain to this guy.

even if modern addons are different, their function mostly existed in some form during vanilla.

what he fails to see is that removing addons is not any closer to original than modern addons.

unless he can explain how modern addons change / stop you from playing with original UI, the way vanilla addons didn't, no addons doesn't have ANYTHING to do with vanilla, while modern addons does have something to do with vanilla, their function existed during vanilla.
I think the point OP is trying to make is that modern addons might be a lot more powerful than the original addons were.
22/04/2018 13:54Posted by Bearly
I don't know what demons are torturing you, but there were even much more automatic addons in classic than today.
For example, there was a healer addon which completely automatically selected the optimal rank for the spell.


Read through the first post and the rest of the topic, those addons were already discussed and dismissed. As they were banned.

22/04/2018 13:54Posted by Bearly
There were bag addons, auction house addons, UI addons, Quest addons, threat meter addons, DPS meter addons and much more


I am very well aware, please read the first post.

22/04/2018 13:54Posted by Bearly
If you did not use all these things then it does not mean that these things did not exist at the time!


And just to make sure you understand this fully, for the third time, please read the first post.

22/04/2018 13:54Posted by Bearly
If you do not like these things, then play in the future without these tools. But stop saying that these things have something to do with #ProChanges!!!


Having addons that are way more powerful than the vanilla wow ones (not the cheat addons, because those were banned and are therefore irrelevant) is not classic wow. It is therefore a change.

22/04/2018 13:54Posted by Bearly
People like you who claim that these tools did not exist at that time have a look at classic which does not correspond to reality, but this look is marred by the typical pink glasses!


Never claimed that the tools didn't exist in vanilla, again for the fourth time, read through the first post and rest of the topic.

What I am claiming is that thing such as healing prediction didn't exist in vanilla, questhelper didn't exist in vanilla (not in such an advanced state), range-proximity features didn't work in vanilla, super accurate BigWigs did not exist in vanilla.

But I never claimed addons didn't exist at all, I never claimed that ThottBot didn't exist.

22/04/2018 14:44Posted by Cai
bearly : that's what i've been trying to explain to this guy.


Failed considerably at doing so.

22/04/2018 14:44Posted by Cai
even if modern addons are different, their function mostly existed in some form during vanilla.


Just because the fundemental function of addons existed back in the day doesn't mean it's a valid reason to add addons that has been worked on for more than 10 years.

This logic would validate bringing in LFG aswell, the fundemental function of it existed in vanilla, should we also bring this advanced LFG from Legion into the game? Of course we shouldn't, it's stupid. Same with Legion-addons, it's ridiculously stupid.

22/04/2018 14:44Posted by Cai
what he fails to see is that removing addons is not any closer to original than modern addons.


By fact, yes, it is closer.

We really don't need to go in to this again.

22/04/2018 14:44Posted by Cai
unless he can explain how modern addons change / stop you from playing with original UI, the way vanilla addons didn't, no addons doesn't have ANYTHING to do with vanilla, while modern addons does have something to do with vanilla, their function existed during vanilla.


I never said that no-addons at all is the exact authentic vanilla experience. I am saying, most people experienced wow without addons for a long period of time, so they have actually experienced wow without addons. This has nothing to do if it removes the choice or not, it is about what is factual and what is not. Did someone actually >EXPERIENCE< wow without addons, yes, most people did UNTIL they found out about it. Doesn't matter if it's a choice or not, they actually experienced wow in some length without addons until they found out about them.

This cannot be said for legion-like addons. Nobody ever experienced 2018 addons in 2004.

No one can draw a link between addons and legion-addons JUST because they are addons. Sure, you can say addons is more vanilla than no addons at all, by all means, this is a true statement. But you CANNOT state that legion-like addons is closer to vanilla than no-addons at all, because it is by fact impossible.

Do we really have to go over this again?

Addons is vanilla, legion-addons are not. Legion-addons is a change.

But again, as we have said already, I am not against cosmetic addons, even if they are produced in legion because they make no gamechanges. Aslong as they don't bring the healing-prediction and whatnot that didn't exist in vanilla.

But for it to be SIMPLER on Blizzard, I'd rather just have them disabled the use of the addons folder and implement something integrated into the game such as Damagemeter and a moveable UI or whatever.

22/04/2018 14:54Posted by Shogath
I think the point OP is trying to make is that modern addons might be a lot more powerful than the original addons were.


Indeed I am.

I am not including the "cheat" addons from vanilla, because they are irrelevant and should not be compared to because they were banned.

It would be the same as comparing CS:GO skins with aimbot. They have no relation because aimbot is bannable.
I am saying, most people experienced wow without addons for a long period of time, so they have actually experienced wow without addons


they haven't... no addons vanilla did not exist, even from day 1 there was addons.

if you mean original UI, they can experience this with or without modern addons.

This has nothing to do if it removes the choice or not, it is about what is factual and what is not


this is literally, only point here.

removing addons from classic is a change, it removes option, that is fact, and no matter what you try to say ever changes this fact, removing addons = change thus you can't say you are "#nochanges" if you propose this huge, game altering, CHANGE.

you "can" still however keep beating a deadhorse that modern addons are change, it sure is, but it's not only change we are going to see, it's a change we and blizzard have no control over.

here is list of other changes we are going to see no matter what we do :

- meta gaming, the fact everyone knows perfect meta from beginning is huge change.

- information / websites, the vast ammount of information, the fact it's more easily accessible and more people knows how to Access this information is huge change.

Did someone actually >EXPERIENCE< wow without addons, yes, most people did UNTIL they found out about it


no, no one ever experienced vanilla without addons, addons existed whatever they knew about them or not.

you can experience original UI whatever we have modern or old addons, you can play with original UI, it is irrelevant what addons we have.

Doesn't matter if it's a choice or not, they actually experienced wow in some length without addons until they found out about them.


sheesh... 3 times same text in same post.

no one ever experience vanilla without addons, stop saying that they did.

if you mean original UI, you can experience it, modern addons doesn't prevent it in anyway.

22/04/2018 14:54Posted by Shogath
I think the point OP is trying to make is that modern addons might be a lot more powerful than the original addons were.


yes, we can "pretend" that classic addons wasn't 10times more powerful than modern ones, like OP here says he doesn't count "that" but want's to concencrate on certain addons that is possibly going to be a lot powerful, sure, i can relate this and understand this point.

however what OP suggests is abomination, and no closer to vanilla at all. This can be "repaired" with simple unique API to classic that bans such things as healing predictions, those functions that never existed in vanilla, instead of removing all addons, it's too extremist and just plain sickening, what makes it even more sickening is that he can't see it's a matter of opinion what is closer to vanilla experience is just plain OPINION and personal preference, because no one EVER experienced no addons vanilla OR modern addons vanilla.

btw, just because vanilla addons is considered cheating now, doesn't mean they we're cheating back then.... people used these cheat addons for a loooong time, before they we're fixed, just because we know better now doesn't alter the past in anyway, addons during MC -BWL times was a LOOOOT more powerful than modern addons, that is a historical FACT, and you can keep "pretending" that modern addons is more powerful, and By the time they we're banned addons over all was improved a LOT from what they we're.
Astralogion is a troll just stop responding. Let this stupid pointless thread die.

NO CHANGES.
22/04/2018 16:33Posted by Cai
they haven't... no addons vanilla did not exist, even from day 1 there was addons.
You keep hammering this semantic like it's a bloody religion.

I never experienced addons in Vanilla because i didn't know they existed. You really think my experience would be different if i had known they existed but still didn't use them? So yeah, A LOT of people experienced Vanilla without addons.

But hey, no need to explain that the option was still there... i think everybody and their granny has gotten that by now.

If Blizzard has to make a choice between allowing overpowered modern addons because they can't make it so that old and new don't make a difference i'd go for no addons at all as well.

People keep screaming they want challenging endgame when static 1.12.x is used ... lets see how they fare without their little helpers.
22/04/2018 17:20Posted by Shogath
I never experienced addons in Vanilla because i didn't know they existed. You really think my experience would be different if i had known they existed but still didn't use them? So yeah, A LOT of people experienced Vanilla without addons.


tell me how modern addons STOPS you from experiencing this in classic, the way vanilla addons didn't 10y ago ?

tell me, because then you have an actual argument.

what you experienced was ORIGINAL UI, you didn't experience "no addons at all vanilla" because other's was using addons.

22/04/2018 17:20Posted by Shogath
People keep screaming they want challenging endgame when static 1.12.x is used ... lets see how they fare without their little helpers.


that doesn't mean they want challenge to come from blind folding.

people hate games where there is bad ui, controls etc, does it make game harder ? ofcourse it does, but they don't like difficulty to come OUTSIDE the game, they want difficulty to come from actual game mechanics.

that's why UI addons are so popular, that's why vanilla BOTTING addons we're so hated, so much that they got banned.

but hey ! that's just personal opinion, if you enjoy super bad controls and easy as f game mechanics, but all difficulty coming from poor controls, then By all means, you're not "wrong".
22/04/2018 17:44Posted by Cai
22/04/2018 17:20Posted by Shogath
I never experienced addons in Vanilla because i didn't know they existed. You really think my experience would be different if i had known they existed but still didn't use them? So yeah, A LOT of people experienced Vanilla without addons.


tell me how modern addons STOPS you from experiencing this in classic, the way vanilla addons didn't 10y ago ?

tell me, because then you have an actual argument.

22/04/2018 17:20Posted by Shogath
People keep screaming they want challenging endgame when static 1.12.x is used ... lets see how they fare without their little helpers.


that doesn't mean they want challenge to come from blind folding.

people hate games where there is bad ui, controls etc, does it make game harder ? ofcourse it does, but they don't like difficulty to come OUTSIDE the game, they want difficulty to come from actual game mechanics.

that's why UI addons are so popular, that's why vanilla BOTTING addons we're so hated, so much that they got banned.

but hey ! that's just personal opinion, if you enjoy super bad controls and easy as f game mechanics, but all difficulty coming from poor controls, then By all means, you're not "wrong".
You keep avoiding the core every time... this is the part you should have quoted and replied to:
22/04/2018 17:20Posted by Shogath
If Blizzard has to make a choice between allowing overpowered modern addons because they can't make it so that old and new don't make a difference i'd go for no addons at all as well.


They have to look at the addons and check if they aren't able to do anything they never could back then.

If they can't do anything about that then i would opt for removal of all addons.
22/04/2018 16:33Posted by Cai
they haven't... no addons vanilla did not exist, even from day 1 there was addons.

if you mean original UI, they can experience this with or without modern addons.


I never said no addons at all was vanilla. Again, this is not about the removal of the choice of addons, that's a different subject. I am talking about what people experienced or not. No, they did not experience wow without the choice of addons, nobody did. BUT, most didn't play wow with addons until weeks or months in the game. Thus, they did experience wow without addons until they found out about them.

This has nothing to do with the choice subject, it is irrelevant in this case. We are talking about what people experienced and what is a closer experience to vanilla.

No addons or legion-addons. 2 Options, there is not a third in this argument, the choice argument is invalid here, that is another subject with another debate.

The point of this is to establish, what has people actually experienced and can be used as fact and what cannot.

The only claim that Legion-like addons is closer to vanilla is that they are addons, nothing else. No addons is a factual claim because people actually played wow without addons. Nobody ever played original vanilla with legion-addons. Therefore, they are -not- closer to the vanilla experience in comparison to no addons.

Now whether we should block addons, remove them completely, or whatever, is another argument. How one should do this etc.

So don't bring back removing the choice argument again, it doesn't belong in this specific discussion.

22/04/2018 16:33Posted by Cai
removing addons from classic is a change, it removes option, that is fact, and no matter what you try to say ever changes this fact, removing addons = change thus you can't say you are "#nochanges" if you propose this huge, game altering, CHANGE.


I never said I was no changes, ever.

22/04/2018 16:33Posted by Cai
you "can" still however keep beating a deadhorse that modern addons are change, it sure is, but it's not only change we are going to see, it's a change we and blizzard have no control over.


Of course they have control over this. They can shut off addons with the snap of a finger. Just like they banned the original vanilla "cheat" addons, they can disable addons alltogether if they so wish.

22/04/2018 16:33Posted by Cai
here is list of other changes we are going to see no matter what we do :

- meta gaming, the fact everyone knows perfect meta from beginning is huge change.

- information / websites, the vast ammount of information, the fact it's more easily accessible and more people knows how to Access this information is huge change.


Gonna reply to this for fun.

Meta gaming they can control if they change enough to make it unknown again. Sure, might not last long, but they can control it.

Yes, information and websites they cannot control. Truth here.

22/04/2018 16:33Posted by Cai
no, no one ever experienced vanilla without addons, addons existed whatever they knew about them or not.

you can experience original UI whatever we have modern or old addons, you can play with original UI, it is irrelevant what addons we have.


I am not talking about experiencing wow without the choice of addons. I am saying most people did not play with addons because they did not know of them until after a while, THUS, they did experience wow without addons. See the difference?

22/04/2018 16:33Posted by Cai
no one ever experience vanilla without addons, stop saying that they did.


Again you are refering to the choice of using addons, I am not. I never said people didn't have a choice to have addons. To re-clarify this, every single player, ever, experienced wow without addons until they took time and downloaded the addons (which usually took weeks or months).

Can you see what I mean?

22/04/2018 16:33Posted by Cai
yes, we can "pretend" that classic addons wasn't 10times more powerful than modern ones, like OP here says he doesn't count "that" but want's to concencrate on certain addons that is possibly going to be a lot powerful, sure, i can relate this and understand this point.


They are not counted because they were banned. Do you reckon aimbot in CS to be an authentic experience of counterstrike? Of course you don't. They were banned because they were cheating and really gamebreaking, to even compare them is ridiculous.

22/04/2018 16:33Posted by Cai
however what OP suggests is abomination, and no closer to vanilla at all. This can be "repaired" with simple unique API to classic that bans such things as healing predictions, those functions that never existed in vanilla, instead of removing all addons, it's too extremist and just plain sickening, what makes it even more sickening is that he can't see it's a matter of opinion what is closer to vanilla experience is just plain OPINION and personal preference, because no one EVER experienced no addons vanilla OR modern addons vanilla.


Dude, no offence, but have you already forgotten of how we agreed on the point that I don't mind cosmetics or how if they could just remove healing prediction and any gamebreaking stuff that I would be perfectly fine with that.

If blizzard can do this, by all means, I am for it.



22/04/2018 16:50Posted by Vezran
Astralogion is a troll just stop responding. Let this stupid pointless thread die.

NO CHANGES.


This is a forum, it's very purpose is to discuss things. If you cannot handle this, then just get out. I am not trolling.

tell me how modern addons STOPS you from experiencing this in classic, the way vanilla addons didn't 10y ago ?

tell me, because then you have an actual argument.


It doesn't stop one from experiencing this. It does however selfinflict a completely unecessary and unfair handicap to the one using it. It is stupid.

22/04/2018 17:44Posted by Cai
people hate games where there is bad ui, controls etc, does it make game harder ? ofcourse it does, but they don't like difficulty to come OUTSIDE the game, they want difficulty to come from actual game mechanics.


Except this goes against your are saying. No addons means you face the only difficulty there is left, game mechanics. Addons is from outside the game of which you state people do not want the difficulty from...?

Also, +10 Shogath. You are awesome! :D
22/04/2018 18:26Posted by Shogath
They have to look at the addons and check if they aren't able to do anything they never could back then.If they can't do anything about that then i would opt for removal of all addons.


and... this is what we have been talking about for last 20 pages.

what - ever - is - closer - is - matter - of - opinion.

because neither is real experience.

your argument : everyone experienced the original UI = no addons closer.

is trash, and i'm repeating myself here :

modern addons doesn't have anything to do with original UI, it doesn't affect it, it doesn't remove it, it doesn't interfare with it in anyway.

you can experience the original UI whatever there is MODERN or VANILLA addons, it's all irrelevant.

and that's why, unless you can explain how modern addons stops you from experiencing the original UI, the way vanilla addons doesn't, you have no argument here, at all.

It doesn't stop one from experiencing this. It does however selfinflict a completely unecessary and unfair handicap to the one using it. It is stupid.


so, you're trying to say JUST the way it was during vanilla ?

"selfinflict a completely unecessary and unfair handicap" is exacly what you did not using addons during vanilla.

22/04/2018 20:28Posted by Astralogion
Except this goes against your are saying. No addons means you face the only difficulty there is left, game mechanics. Addons is from outside the game of which you state people do not want the difficulty from...?


you completely misunderstood me, i meant that controls and UI is not part of the game mechanics, you should be able to control these in anygame, but if you can't that's being hated.

besides it still doesn't make any sense you're trying to make, addons are approved By blizzard, blizzard encourages to use them, they are supported, thus addons, as option, are part of the game, it's up to you what to use, and what not to use, so if you think some addon is bad for your gaming experience, you are not forced to use it, exact opposite what you're trying to propose with "no addons", forcing everyone who don't like original UI, to use something they hate, something they never had to "deal" with during vanilla.

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