Change Titanforging in BfA

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17/12/2017 07:34Posted by Saphiramoon
16/12/2017 22:15Posted by Cysia
ive done +14's and 15's and a 16 aswell But i dont find them very hard at all, neither do i find antorus hard but large part of my guild is well less qualified so to say :P. Found M return to kharazhan on launch day harder then current dungeons.
And i prefered Cm's over current M+ but i never had anyone to really run them with.


I depends on the affixes and dungeon, but while a +15 isn't super hard, neither the first mythic boss usually is really - which is why I said entry bosses. It's very hard to judge difficulty nowadays anyway - since difficulty usually goes down with gear, and gear is pretty random: for example, you are 950 ilev. Ofc you are not going to find +15 hard, you are already overgeared for it. +15 drops 940 ilev loot, correct me if I'm wrong - so you will not be getting upgrades from it outside TF procs (weekly chest included, since it's a guaranteed proc). You are geared enough to enter a good couple of bosses in mythic Antorus, nothing in hc should feel hard. Now, try to do a +15 with a 930-ish group, which is people that would actually get upgrades from there. I guarantee you it's not gonna feel as breezy.

16/12/2017 22:15Posted by Cysia
And i prefered Cm's over current M+ but i never had anyone to really run them with.

I liked CMs, but there were very few people willing to progress in them, and once we had gold, nobody wanted to do them again. A lot of good raiders in my guild even preferred buying boosts, not because they wouldn't have been able to do them, but because it took time, practice, sometimes a different set of gear, and not all classes were good for them. Some classes also scale differently with gear, and playing them was !@#$ in low ilev.
I prefer m+, the affixes bring another layer of complexity, which the CMs didn't have, and you get to play your character at its full strength. The fact they drop good loot makes m+ a great alternative to raiding, and I think wow really needed one, a lot of players can't afford the scheduling raiding implies, but they would still like a challenge.

17/12/2017 03:45Posted by Ðwarf
Titanforge is just a way of buffing ppl instead of nerfing content. You obviously dont read as I said this before.

While this is true, nerfing content happens equally for everybody, while TF doesn't. Maybe if you look at an average, things balance out, but not sure how pleasant it is to be on the lower side of the scale, and console yourself with the idea that somewhere in the world somebody else had amazing luck to balance the general karma.
They had a way to buff players instead of nerfing content - was the valor upgrades, which everybody had access to, provided they spent an hour or so per week to cap vps.


Ofc it depends on the affixes and the dungeon but most dont really feel hard even when i was lower ilvl. And I dont see you said starter mythic bosses so my bad there. And some of the gear from +15 is actully upgrades due better stats for gloves or belt or for trinket and neck.
And yeah im 950 (actully lower but armory displayed wrong gear set >.>) antorus bosses on normal and hc arent hard tuned or mechanicly very hard imo but quite a few are alot worse , green or grey parses are not rare for them. (though i dint mind to much are theyre a likable group).

For cm's i liked that they needed practice and different gear could be usefull there, i know alot dint but i liked it myself. And yeah it had problems with not evry spec being very good in there and others scaling differently with gear but any combination could get gold if you wanted max record speed time runns then yeah not evry class was good.
And on affixes quite a few are boring (more trash, more dmg and hp on trash or boss) and others are anoyying but atleast change the way you do dungeon more activly which i want more of those affixes instead of + dmg/hp.

M+ is something wow needed though im not the biggest fan of it myself. You are right on that people that cant have raiding schedule would still like a challenge, which M+ is good for. Im not against it but i liked the same ilvl Always from Cm's more as would Always stay same difficulty more or less (outside op trinkets like soulcap and stuff like legendary ring).
17/12/2017 16:07Posted by Postura
17/12/2017 15:13Posted by Hierithom
Terrible idea, you would want to make the game worse to remove TF as it ruins progression despite your char not actually doing any kind of progression content.


first of all what i do doesn't matter and secondly i got 7 ahead of the curves those include EN Nighthold and ToS if you don't call that progression then i don't know what is.

Neither you or I are negatively impacted by titanforging. We do pretty trivial content and get some lucky procs. Nothing we have done in the game in Legion is hard.
Delete "We". I like titanforging as it is
17/12/2017 23:54Posted by Hierithom
Neither you or I are negatively impacted by titanforging. We do pretty trivial content and get some lucky procs. Nothing we have done in the game in Legion is hard.


It has massive impact on players like me and most certainly you. I pug most raids because i enjoy those more cause i can play when i feel like it. People ask 20 ilvl over the base itemlevel of the drops in a raid because of titanforging.

The other problem is you can't get BiS anymore because the best will always be titanforged with a socket now it just becomes a slot machine its kills all progression.

18/12/2017 05:02Posted by Demonamazing
Delete "We". I like titanforging as it is


you barely played the game mate.
Ah that's why I can't get into good pugs like HFC where we only had Curve (only asked for HC Archimonde kills) where as right now I face IL walls alongside curve. "You no lucky on TF? Stay in normal you scrub!"

Archi dropped 720 and a quarenteed kill (skipping everything else) for an upgrade token was 720'ish! Now people keep TF in mind and add 15+ levels...
18/12/2017 18:25Posted by Postura
17/12/2017 23:54Posted by Hierithom
Neither you or I are negatively impacted by titanforging. We do pretty trivial content and get some lucky procs. Nothing we have done in the game in Legion is hard.


It has massive impact on players like me and most certainly you. I pug most raids because i enjoy those more cause i can play when i feel like it. People ask 20 ilvl over the base itemlevel of the drops in a raid because of titanforging.

The other problem is you can't get BiS anymore because the best will always be titanforged with a socket now it just becomes a slot machine its kills all progression.

18/12/2017 05:02Posted by Demonamazing
Delete "We". I like titanforging as it is


you barely played the game mate.

People will find another way to gate, titanforging is a myth there. The complaints about pugs has been happening as long as there have been pugs. Well you would never have bis this entire expansion if titanforging was removed, so again how does it negatively impact you? You are just parroting points you've heard actual top tier raiders make.
18/12/2017 22:00Posted by Hierithom
People will find another way to gate, titanforging is a myth there. The complaints about pugs has been happening as long as there have been pugs. Well you would never have bis this entire expansion if titanforging was removed, so again how does it negatively impact you? You are just parroting points you've heard actual top tier raiders make.
`

People will always gate i don't have a problem with that they can ask for curve or whatever. I do have a problem when Titanforging becomes the norm and you need to be lucky to get better. I did try getting BiS before but guess what titanforging kills that. I can figure it out meself don't need top raiders for that but on while we are on the subject if even they say it mabye there is something wrong with titanforging ?
18/12/2017 22:00Posted by Hierithom
18/12/2017 18:25Posted by Postura
...

It has massive impact on players like me and most certainly you. I pug most raids because i enjoy those more cause i can play when i feel like it. People ask 20 ilvl over the base itemlevel of the drops in a raid because of titanforging.

The other problem is you can't get BiS anymore because the best will always be titanforged with a socket now it just becomes a slot machine its kills all progression.

...

you barely played the game mate.

People will find another way to gate, titanforging is a myth there. The complaints about pugs has been happening as long as there have been pugs. Well you would never have bis this entire expansion if titanforging was removed, so again how does it negatively impact you? You are just parroting points you've heard actual top tier raiders make.

Ilvl requirements have just inflated tons more in legion due titanforge and legendaries,escpially compared to wod. and in past if you saw someone had certain ilvl you knew he had to have done for example latest raid on hc or last tier on M or whatever now you cant know that without looking up on armory. Now Lucky people can be as high or higher ilvl then hc or mythic raiders.
19/12/2017 12:14Posted by Postura
but on while we are on the subject if even they say it mabye there is something wrong with titanforging ?


Nope.

Not everyone will like everything. That's just how it is. With everything.
19/12/2017 17:11Posted by Tahra
Nope.

Not everyone will like everything. That's just how it is. With everything.


I rather listen to the top of raiding they have a better understanding. I understand some people liking titanforging because they can't invest time as much those people don't deserve a 990 titanforged or something capping is the best solution and 10 is perfect with the new system coming in.
19/12/2017 17:35Posted by Postura
I rather listen to the top of raiding they have a better understanding.


Actually they don't and that doesn't matter anyway, it's every man for himself here. The top raiders will want what's in THEIR best interest, which more often than not comes at your expense. I think you're being too easily manipulated.
19/12/2017 18:10Posted by Gannet
19/12/2017 17:35Posted by Postura
I rather listen to the top of raiding they have a better understanding.


Actually they don't and that doesn't matter anyway, it's every man for himself here. The top raiders will want what's in THEIR best interest, which more often than not comes at your expense. I think you're being too easily manipulated.

the top raiders got way more knowledge about raiding and how titanforge and legendaries effect it and have effected it then any of us here. Theyre the top for a reason.
19/12/2017 18:10Posted by Gannet
Actually they don't and that doesn't matter anyway, it's every man for himself here. The top raiders will want what's in THEIR best interest, which more often than not comes at your expense. I think you're being too easily manipulated.


True to whats in their best intresest. I do agree with them on AP/legendaries/RNG-Titanforging. those are kinda the only problems they are saying wich i have a problem with too.

I'm not easily manipulated i just hate titanforging because it kills progression and rewards luck over effort people who only do lets say world quests or LFR deserve the lowest gear with the current system they are close to or heroic ilvl geared.
18/12/2017 22:00Posted by Hierithom
People will find another way to gate, titanforging is a myth there. The complaints about pugs has been happening as long as there have been pugs.


Pug leaders always asked for higher ilvl than needed, but there was one big difference. They couldn't asked for it until they cleared it multiple times and got the high ilvl from it, which made it possible for a lot more people to clear it before they started asking for stupid ilvl. Without titanforging the ilvl requirement was never higher than what the raid dropped.

Thats not the case now, the ilvl requirement for every raid in this expansion was the ilvl of those raids on normal difficulty or higher on the first day, because titanforging made it possible to outgear them even before they came out.
Randomness with gear should be removed in general. Make every piece of gear upgradeable via Valor points, and allow it to go 15ilevels or something higher than the original piece once fully upgraded with Valor Points.

Gives longevity to gear, and I always felt more attached to my gear when I had it fully upgraded. It's an MMO afterall, and character progression should be a huge thing, not gambling and randomness.
20/12/2017 06:50Posted by Niodd
18/12/2017 22:00Posted by Hierithom
People will find another way to gate, titanforging is a myth there. The complaints about pugs has been happening as long as there have been pugs.


Pug leaders always asked for higher ilvl than needed, but there was one big difference. They couldn't asked for it until they cleared it multiple times and got the high ilvl from it, which made it possible for a lot more people to clear it before they started asking for stupid ilvl. Without titanforging the ilvl requirement was never higher than what the raid dropped.

Thats not the case now, the ilvl requirement for every raid in this expansion was the ilvl of those raids on normal difficulty or higher on the first day, because titanforging made it possible to outgear them even before they came out.

This is not true it was a known thing with "gearscore" even back in WOTLK and ICC pugs that leaders asked for high item lvl even when theres was 200 and just dinged.
20/12/2017 07:50Posted by Vassandra
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Pug leaders always asked for higher ilvl than needed, but there was one big difference. They couldn't asked for it until they cleared it multiple times and got the high ilvl from it, which made it possible for a lot more people to clear it before they started asking for stupid ilvl. Without titanforging the ilvl requirement was never higher than what the raid dropped.

Thats not the case now, the ilvl requirement for every raid in this expansion was the ilvl of those raids on normal difficulty or higher on the first day, because titanforging made it possible to outgear them even before they came out.

This is not true it was a known thing with "gearscore" even back in WOTLK and ICC pugs that leaders asked for high item lvl even when theres was 200 and just dinged.


There was no possible way to ask for higher gearscore/ilvl than what was needed the same day when the raid came out, few weeks, months after that, sure, but not the same day. Without titanforge, people couldn't outgear Naxxramas or ICC before it came out. While this expansion everyone outgeared NH, ToS and Antorus before they came out and that is what made it possible for them to ask for way too high ilvl for even a normal run.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
This is not true it was a known thing with "gearscore" even back in WOTLK and ICC pugs that leaders asked for high item lvl even when theres was 200 and just dinged.


There was no possible way to ask for higher gearscore/ilvl than what was needed the same day when the raid came out, few weeks, months after that, sure, but not the same day. Without titanforge, people couldn't outgear Naxxramas or ICC before it came out. While this expansion everyone outgeared NH, ToS and Antorus before they came out and that is what made it possible for them to ask for way too high ilvl for even a normal run.


So why wasnt this an issue throught TOT/SoO and the whole of WOD and only legion only .Before you start getting all angry i agree something needs to be done but you people seem to think its a legion only thing when its been in since TOT in MoP .

As for Naxx in WOTLK it was cleared within a week and by people still in SWP gear it was a joke of an instance.

Actually you could ask for more .TOC 25man heroic dropped 258 ......ICC 10man dropped 251 both puggable before they brought in shared lock outs.
10man normal was considered tourist mode in Wrath. It was easy, and had to drop low item-level gear.

The fact that Naxx and ToC was under tuned and cleared in a day is a bad example, But no one had higher item level gear from previous raids when we talk 25 man Ulduar vs. ToC 25
20/12/2017 08:25Posted by Vassandra
So why wasnt this an issue throught TOT/SoO and the whole of WOD and only legion only .Before you start getting all angry i agree something needs to be done but you people seem to think its a legion only thing when its been in since TOT in MoP .


because it was capped back then and didn't happen every boss.

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