WOW Classic / OSRS - one in the same?

Classic Discussion
Hello all,

Just wanted to create a quick space for discussion, rather than a flame-war. I know that the mention of Runescape may make some of you physically ill, but I can't help draw some potential parallels between Classic and the Old School Runescape servers. I may be wrong, but I think it's probably the only other mainstream MMO to make the decision to create a separate release of their game in an earlier state. It's also pretty similar in how it came about, with all the arguments over what version it should be, as well as changes that could be made.

Combining what Brack said on stage at Blizzcon, with the developer Q&A with Hazzikostas and Allen, I think it's fair to say that no QoL changes will be immediately made to classic. But looking at the development of OSRS since launch, I also think it's fair to begin to talk about changes that may be made to classic much later down the line that could be similar to OSRS's changes.

The OSRS team has made it quite clear that they are a separate entity from the current RS, and no decisions made for the current iteration affect OSRS at all. Every development choice is usually made via in-game polls from the whole community (you have to be above a certain total level threshold to vote). I think Blizzard, as well as the community, need to take a look at how the OSRS team handled the creation of OSRS, as well as how they continually manage it today. This is not only to learn from the mistakes they've made, but also to follow in their successes.

Essentially, I wanna ask anybody who's played through OSRS what changes have been made, how they were implemented, and how they affected the game. Do you think OSRS's development system would work for classic?

As a quick side-note:
This is not a place to whine about the changes made to OSRS, especially not about the implementation of the Grand Exchange. That ship has long sailed. This is only in the interest of classic.

Please share your thoughts,
Thanks.
I think Old School Runescape is the model that blizzard should follow.

Initially that should mean focusing on working out the best way to port the game in as faithful and positive way as possible. There are a huge range of reasons why launching at 1.12 would be bad, and that includes talents.

Personally i would like to see a 2 phase approach. Something like 1.1->1.6 content progression period with some minor class and spec rebalancing in at launch in line with what will come later in 1.12 but to not go too far in talent power creep. All that should be in place before launching Classic Wow.

Then while the game works through those 9 months of content, work on 1.7-1.12. with most of the 1.10 to 1.12 type class buffs happening in patch 1.7.

With Wow Classic servers getting to 12 months old, you can start doing in game polling about what direction to take the game moving forward, if it is to become static after 1.12, or if you want to continue to do things like adding new content. Let the community decide at that point, and blizzard will have a far better idea of how the business side is looking, as frankly they will behave very differently if there are 50k active players or 5mil active players.
I love both osrs and vanilla but after the changes they made to osrs it doesn't feel like the same game anymore the reason I quit runescape long ago was beacuse the GE ruined a lot of the fun for me and made it less enjoyable, Its still a really fun game and I play it from time to time and the game is doing better than ever so maybe I'm in the minority that was against the Changes

osrs polling system made the game easyscape and it would most likely do the same to classic but I'm not completely oposed to the idea
In principle, this sounds good and I'm for it. But being realistic, I'm against it.
First of all, polls are a horrendous way of determining the direction of the game. For one, you can't be precise enough with them. If you asked me in 2009 if I wanted a revamp of vanilla Azeroth, I'd have said, hell yes! Then Cataclysm came and it was a burning pile of bad memes, destroyed areas and a severely simplified 1-60 level experience, and I want nothing more than to get old Azeroth back.
And there's also the problem that people just don't know what they want. I remember one famous example of coffee: Polling people says that black and bitter coffee is the most popular. Polling Cafes and restaurants says that sweet coffee sells best.
Again with Cataclysm: Pretty sure that was really popular when it was announced, but then it was actually released and the subs started dropping for the next 5 years.

Further, I don't think Blizzard is the right company to do changes. You said that OSRS declared itself separate from the current RS. I think Blizzard would have to go several steps further for a potential vanilla development team: Not recruit anyone from their current employees, and have that team stationed in a completely separate office building. Because, after all, company culture is a thing, and Blizzard today is a company that makes extremely shallow and casual games. That sort of thing is contagious. Imagine being in the vanilla team and having to put a ton of thought into what you're doing and then you hear Ben Brode's stupid laugh from the next office because his latest half-baked POS Hearthstone expansion made another $200 million from idiotic mobile players.
I don't think this kind of necessary separation will happen.
My opinion is that Classic should be Vanilla (as close as possible). It's a historic game, which should be preserved. Players starting a character on release should have the same experience as players starting a character ten years from release.

Also, if Blizzards starts to change Classic, when will the first demands to "bring back Classic" start? :P :)
For some weird reason there is this trend of people that think Classic has to 'move on' after some amount of time.

01/12/2017 10:57Posted by Dalcymon
My opinion is that Classic should be Vanilla (as close as possible). It's a historic game, which should be preserved. Players starting a character on release should have the same experience as players starting a character ten years from release.

Also, if Blizzards starts to change Classic, when will the first demands to "bring back Classic" start? :P :)


Yeah, i think that's very well put and my thoughts exactly.
30/11/2017 21:43Posted by Slamdef
I may be wrong, but I think it's probably the only other mainstream MMO to make the decision to create a separate release of their game in an earlier state.


Lineage 2 did it. But they mixed a few patches, meaning there was content from C4 but content from C3 was about to be added later.

They also increased the XP rate a bit. But still most of the classic community plays on x100 private servers. Why? Because the official classic has more bits than legit players, QoL features such as auto macro repeat and is only available in Asia and Europe.

But for me the L2's content update plans are good - they just make an alternative storyline for future updates. Like if WoW added Emerald Dream instead of 3.2, for example.

But L2 uses the same client version for both latest and classic - which means QoL from latest goes to classic too. For me it's not good.
01/12/2017 10:57Posted by Dalcymon
My opinion is that Classic should be Vanilla (as close as possible). It's a historic game, which should be preserved. Players starting a character on release should have the same experience as players starting a character ten years from release.


I think there are 2 lines of thinking that relate to this, one that there can be some kind of agreement on and another that you probably never agree with.

1st line of thinking is that to make Classic as close as possible to Vanilla as an experience it needs to evolve and change over time, as that is what Vanilla did. Having a static Wow Classic does not recreate the Vanilla experience, it fundamentally changes it. I think the recreating the experience in a way that can be sustained is the biggest challenge in developing Wow Classic and how you go about doing that is a debate i think that the #NoChanges group can understand and even agree with - even if disagreeing with what actions different people would take.

2nd line of thinking #NoChanges will never probably agree with, and that is that for a lot of players Vanilla Wow is their preferred game design model for Wow, But have already experienced much of Vanilla Wow and want new content and new challenges, in the style and design of the original Vanilla Wow. They look at Wow Classic as this - i loved Vanilla Wow, I want more of it, give me new content, give me new experiences. Re-imagine Wow without the 1000's of design changes that took it from being a true MMO, to being a COOP RPG.

What drives me nuts is that all in my experience both sides have a profound love and memory of the game, and we should be able to accept and respect opinions of people who come from the same perspective.
01/12/2017 12:43Posted by Fufina
1st line of thinking is that to make Classic as close as possible to Vanilla as an experience it needs to evolve and change over time, as that is what Vanilla did. Having a static Wow Classic does not recreate the Vanilla experience, it fundamentally changes it. I think the recreating the experience in a way that can be sustained is the biggest challenge in developing Wow Classic and how you go about doing that is a debate i think that the #NoChanges group can understand and even agree with - even if disagreeing with what actions different people would take.
I think Blizzard is looking to create a "static" Classic and I'm fine with that. It should have some minimal changes to make content and character progression meaningful and rewarding through all the content. That's my preferred solution.

A "patch" progression is also fine, if it's repeated regularly, so new players can also experience it. In my opinion a properly tuned static world where people can progress at their own pace is superior to this, but it's acceptable.

01/12/2017 12:43Posted by Fufina
2nd line of thinking #NoChanges will never probably agree with, and that is that for a lot of players Vanilla Wow is their preferred game design model for Wow, But have already experienced much of Vanilla Wow and want new content and new challenges, in the style and design of the original Vanilla Wow. They look at Wow Classic as this - i loved Vanilla Wow, I want more of it, give me new content, give me new experiences. Re-imagine Wow without the 1000's of design changes that took it from being a true MMO, to being a COOP RPG.
This is totally understandable, however this should be a separate project, not Classic. It would be very sad if this second chance for Vanilla WoW was squandered.

01/12/2017 12:43Posted by Fufina
What drives me nuts is that all in my experience both sides have a profound love and memory of the game, and we should be able to accept and respect opinions of people who come from the same perspective.
I'm in total agreement. :)
01/12/2017 13:07Posted by Dalcymon
01/12/2017 12:43Posted by Fufina
1st line of thinking is that to make Classic as close as possible to Vanilla as an experience it needs to evolve and change over time, as that is what Vanilla did. Having a static Wow Classic does not recreate the Vanilla experience, it fundamentally changes it. I think the recreating the experience in a way that can be sustained is the biggest challenge in developing Wow Classic and how you go about doing that is a debate i think that the #NoChanges group can understand and even agree with - even if disagreeing with what actions different people would take.
I think Blizzard is looking to create a "static" Classic and I'm fine with that. It should have some minimal changes to make content and character progression meaningful and rewarding through all the content. That's my preferred solution.

A "patch" progression is also fine, if it's repeated regularly, so new players can also experience it. In my opinion a properly tuned static world where people can progress at their own pace is superior to this, but it's acceptable.

01/12/2017 12:43Posted by Fufina
2nd line of thinking #NoChanges will never probably agree with, and that is that for a lot of players Vanilla Wow is their preferred game design model for Wow, But have already experienced much of Vanilla Wow and want new content and new challenges, in the style and design of the original Vanilla Wow. They look at Wow Classic as this - i loved Vanilla Wow, I want more of it, give me new content, give me new experiences. Re-imagine Wow without the 1000's of design changes that took it from being a true MMO, to being a COOP RPG.
This is totally understandable, however this should be a separate project, not Classic. It would be very sad if this second chance for Vanilla WoW was squandered.

01/12/2017 12:43Posted by Fufina
What drives me nuts is that all in my experience both sides have a profound love and memory of the game, and we should be able to accept and respect opinions of people who come from the same perspective.
I'm in total agreement. :)
The game with more content cannot exists without "true vanilla" Classic first. None of us have any characters yet and creating one takes at least a year (for most players). There's so much content when Classic launches and I really want the same leveling and character progression experience as before. I wish they keep the game almost identical to vanilla and later after we reach the end there could be option for more content.

There will be a time when there's no more content to do and during that time we could approach similar system as old school runescape has. But until then.. I think old school runescape launched the way as it was back in 2005. With no changes and after awhile when it become successful they started to update it with more content.
01/12/2017 13:49Posted by Dileny
There will be a time when there's no more content to do and during that time we could approach similar system as old school runescape has. But until then.. I think old school runescape launched the way as it was back in 2005. With no changes and after awhile when it become successful they started to update it with more content.
In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with "no more content". You don't have to play Classic forever. Blizzard themselves said that they are fine with even "tens" of players on Classic servers and they'll keep them open until there is no more WoW.

There are many ways content can stretch for a very long time. What about replaying the game as the opposite faction? Or speedrunning the game? (All that planning and optimization can easily take up someone's whole life with a game so large as Vanilla WoW.) Of course these only appeal to a minority, but once again why should Classic be an MMO for everyone, forever? I think Blizzard already has a game striving to be just that... :)

And what about the expansions? I think many players would be very happy if they could continue their adventures in TBC. Blizzard can release "TBC Classic" servers after a few years and let people copy their characters over. I would really like that. (Then WOTLK, so I can finally play through the original storyline from the Warcraft lore.)

Finally there is the option to add extra, new content to Classic. It might be workable, if this new content doesn't interfere with already existing one and let people play and replay the game with the same experience. But I don't think Blizzard would want to do that.

If there is a large enough demand for a "Vanilla WoW" style MMO with new content, I think the best course would be to create a new project for that. "WoW 2", perhaps. One can hope that it happens. :)
01/12/2017 11:29Posted by Malhorn
But for me the L2's content update plans are good - they just make an alternative storyline for future updates.

I'd like that. An alternative storyline for WoW written by actually competent writers. I know, completely unrealistic, but I've dreamt of that for more than 10 years now.
01/12/2017 14:13Posted by Dalcymon
01/12/2017 13:49Posted by Dileny
There will be a time when there's no more content to do and during that time we could approach similar system as old school runescape has. But until then.. I think old school runescape launched the way as it was back in 2005. With no changes and after awhile when it become successful they started to update it with more content.
In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with "no more content". You don't have to play Classic forever. Blizzard themselves said that they are fine with even "tens" of players on Classic servers and they'll keep them open until there is no more WoW.

There are many ways content can stretch for a very long time. What about replaying the game as the opposite faction? Or speedrunning the game? (All that planning and optimization can easily take up someone's whole life with a game so large as Vanilla WoW.) Of course these only appeal to a minority, but once again why should Classic be an MMO for everyone, forever? I think Blizzard already has a game striving to be just that... :)

And what about the expansions? I think many players would be very happy if they could continue their adventures in TBC. Blizzard can release "TBC Classic" servers after a few years and let people copy their characters over. I would really like that. (Then WOTLK, so I can finally play through the original storyline from the Warcraft lore.)

Finally there is the option to add extra, new content to Classic. It might be workable, if this new content doesn't interfere with already existing one and let people play and replay the game with the same experience. But I don't think Blizzard would want to do that.

If there is a large enough demand for a "Vanilla WoW" style MMO with new content, I think the best course would be to create a new project for that. "WoW 2", perhaps. One can hope that it happens. :)
Yep. Polling system like in runescape is one option and there are many other options as well. Some might become reality one day or another and there's demand for everything from vanilla to wotlk. Personally I'd love vanilla like mmo without flying, lfg, heirlooms and instanced pvp (or at least not in as important role). Main objective should be kill the enemy in faction war. Not play games/sport.
01/12/2017 12:43Posted by Fufina
1st line of thinking is that to make Classic as close as possible to Vanilla as an experience it needs to evolve and change over time, as that is what Vanilla did. Having a static Wow Classic does not recreate the Vanilla experience, it fundamentally changes it. I think the recreating the experience in a way that can be sustained is the biggest challenge in developing Wow Classic and how you go about doing that is a debate i think that the #NoChanges group can understand and even agree with - even if disagreeing with what actions different people would take.


I think it is highly possible (and very probable) to make a Classic server in which all the patches are included and all content (in particular certain dungeons and raid(s)) is such that it reflects a rise in difficulty, parallel to the patch sequence.

This would probably mostly concern lvl 60 end game content as the leveling process already has this by nature.

01/12/2017 12:43Posted by Fufina
2nd line of thinking #NoChanges will never probably agree with, and that is that for a lot of players Vanilla Wow is their preferred game design model for Wow, But have already experienced much of Vanilla Wow and want new content and new challenges, in the style and design of the original Vanilla Wow. They look at Wow Classic as this - i loved Vanilla Wow, I want more of it, give me new content, give me new experiences. Re-imagine Wow without the 1000's of design changes that took it from being a true MMO, to being a COOP RPG.


This is basically WoW 2.0 and i don't think Classic should ever be abused for that.

01/12/2017 12:43Posted by Fufina
What drives me nuts is that all in my experience both sides have a profound love and memory of the game, and we should be able to accept and respect opinions of people who come from the same perspective.


I think you should take a closer look at real world religions and politics.... and perhaps even marriage. ;)

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