Removal of Dishonorable Kills

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Post below credited to Gnubbish - Vanilla player without a sub:

A suggestion I feel will improve the Vanilla WoW experience: Removal of Dishonorable Kills!

What are Dishonorable Kills? Its like an Honorable Kill, but it is received when you or someone in your party/raid kills a civilian, such as a quest giver or a vendor.

Upon receiving a Dishonorable Kill, your PvP rank progress is instantly reduced, which means you have to spend much longer farming BGs until you get to your rank goal.

Dishonorable Kills were added to the game to prevent people from corpse camping quest givers or auction masters, which could potentially shut down an entire zone.

Why are Dishonorable Kills a problem? With such a severe punishment for killing Civilians, when Dishonorable Kills are in the game it is no longer possible for serious PvPers to join into groups with strangers to do PvP. If someone in your group decides to start killing civilians then everybody will suffer for it.

In retail Vanilla, players noticed a drastic reduction in city raids and world PvP, as a direct result of the addition of Dishonorable Kills.

City raids are, to me and to many other Vanilla players, an integral part of the game, they are a lot of fun and really gives you the feeling of being at war with the other faction.

Another factor that highlights the bad design of Dishonorable Kills is the fact that most people on the server don't care about amassing Dishonorable Kills. Someone who doesn't care about his PvP rank can just endlessly kill civilians without any punishment at all. Same goes for someone who already finished his PvP rank grind.

Whats the alternative? This is not an easy question, but if we are talking about PvP servers, I would argue that this kind of gameplay disruption is to be expected. If someone is killing your questgiver, you can either wait for him to get bored, go to another zone or make your own ganking squad and fight back.

If quest givers are being corpse camped every single day, in alot of different zones to completely stop players from leveling, then mass reports and griefing bans are a possible answer.

You could also make quest givers unkillable. This is problematic because in a city some quest givers will call for guards to attack invaders. As a city raider I should be able to kill the civilians to prevent them from spawning guards over and over.

For PvE servers, I see no problems with keeping Dishonorable Kills in the game. If you play on a PvE server you cant expect to do city raids or large scale outdoor PvE. Seems fair to me.

What about the essence of Vanilla? NO CHANGES! As I said earlier, Dishonorable Kills were not in the game when it launched, nor were they added at the same time as the PvP system was implemented. This is why the harmful effects they had on the game were so noticeable; players had enjoyed raiding cities and doing large scale world PvP, but suddenly they were no longer able to.

Which is to say that removing Dishonorable Kills makes the game more like its original form, and its hard to argue against making changes to allow city raids in a World of Warcraft.

Thanks for reading and sharing! If you disagree with something I wrote, please specify which part and why.
Weren't dishonorable kills removed later on in Vanilla, or were they removed in TBC? I cannot remember.
Dishonorable Kills should be removed from the game. No one was happy with it when it was announced.
16/12/2017 15:37Posted by Redzinx
Dishonorable Kills should be removed from the game. No one was happy with it when it was announced.


Apart from those that were able to continue questing you mean. They were really happy indeed.

Edit:

As i just suggested in the wrong thread.. maybe neutral NPC's or invulnarable NPC's (vendors/questgivers) could solve this issue.

Although this would mean changing something in the original so removing DK's might be the preferred solution?
16/12/2017 15:28Posted by Danellos
Weren't dishonorable kills removed later on in Vanilla, or were they removed in TBC? I cannot remember.


Technically yes :P It was the 2.0 patch that came before TBC launched, it revamped the honor system and removed DHKs alltogether.

Main point is that they werent in the game when Vanilla launched, it was added together with BattleGrounds.
16/12/2017 15:40Posted by Shogath


Apart from those that were able to continue questing you mean. They were really happy indeed.


You can always continue questing in vanilla, it's not a race to 60. And to tackle people who are killing Quest givers over and over again for several hours can just get a warning from a GM after receiving too many reports about it.
I don't like the idea of adding immunity to quest mobs. Personally, I'm for dishonorable kills not being added, as that isn't a change to the game, but a prevention of a change.

That'll open the world up to more griefing, but DHKs never stopped griefing in the first place.

Its also worth remembering that the point of a PVP server was to fight and grief the other faction.

Removing DHKs also means that PVPers can join in defending neutral places with out risk of losing everything that they've worked for.
16/12/2017 16:09Posted by Miylee
I don't like the idea of adding immunity to quest mobs. Personally, I'm for dishonorable kills not being added, as that isn't a change to the game, but a prevention of a change.

That'll open the world up to more griefing, but DHKs never stopped griefing in the first place.

Its also worth remembering that the point of a PVP server was to fight and grief the other faction.

Removing DHKs also means that PVPers can join in defending neutral places with ought risk of losing everything that they've worked for.


Very well said. DHKs are a change for the worse, they dont prevent griefing at all, and it means PvPers can fight on both sides.
16/12/2017 16:06Posted by Redzinx
16/12/2017 15:40Posted by Shogath


Apart from those that were able to continue questing you mean. They were really happy indeed.


You can always continue questing in vanilla, it's not a race to 60. And to tackle people who are killing Quest givers over and over again for several hours can just get a warning from a GM after receiving too many reports about it.


something to remember is that TBC had no dishonorable kills. There was notihng preventing people from griefing quest givers in TBC, but it didnt happen very much. Its not a big problem that we need to solve, and DHKs didnt solve anything anyways.
16/12/2017 16:09Posted by Miylee
Its also worth remembering that the point of a PVP server was to fight and grief the other faction.


Oh a PvP server? Sorry, i thought we were talking about PvE in general.

On a PvP server you can't expect to level and quest freely imo.
I don't know, if we change one thing who knows what it'll lead to. I think it's best if we don't open the door to changes.
16/12/2017 18:11Posted by Vidget
I don't know, if we change one thing who knows what it'll lead to. I think it's best if we don't open the door to changes.


Like others have said, Dishonorable Kills werent in the original Vanilla game. They were added in a later patch, and changed the game for the worse.

This is undoing that change, so that we can go back to having large scale world pvp like people enjoyed in early vanilla.
16/12/2017 18:11Posted by Vidget
I don't know, if we change one thing who knows what it'll lead to. I think it's best if we don't open the door to changes.


Does that mean we want cross-realm battlegrounds and lagy servers too? Because the second thing will definitely change.
I would agree. My suggestion would just be to put the quest givers on a much faster respawn time, some take 10 - 30 mins to respawn which is stupid. The ganker can just one shot then run off and come back later, avoiding any danger.

If the respawns of quest givers were 1 min he would have to spend a lot more time ganking that NPC, and in turn would make himself vulnerable more often for players to attack him back. Especially if the ganker is a rogue who is just killing, vanishing and hiding.

To an extent, as people have said, this disruption is to be expected on PVP servers. City and town raids are a part of the life of the server, that shioudlnt be discouraged. it's the crazy long respawn timers which punish the levellers, moreso than the PVPers.
I didn't like DHKs when they were introduced and raged quite a bit on the forums about it. The idea was fine, the implementation was not good since you got DHK for being in the same group as someone who killed an NPC. Also when worldpvp was alive and well NPCs just were in the way.

I felt it was a solution to the problem of hindering quest progress, but it hurt so much more than the players it should've punished.
16/12/2017 19:18Posted by Aluthen
I would agree. My suggestion would just be to put the quest givers on a much faster respawn time, some take 10 - 30 mins to respawn which is stupid. The ganker can just one shot then run off and come back later, avoiding any danger.

If the respawns of quest givers were 1 min he would have to spend a lot more time ganking that NPC, and in turn would make himself vulnerable more often for players to attack him back. Especially if the ganker is a rogue who is just killing, vanishing and hiding.

To an extent, as people have said, this disruption is to be expected on PVP servers. City and town raids are a part of the life of the server, that shioudlnt be discouraged. it's the crazy long respawn timers which punish the levellers, moreso than the PVPers.


Yes Im all for increasing respawn timers for quest givers. But not for other civilians! Some civilians should be killed for city raiding because they spawn so many guards. Having these civilians respawn quickly makes it really obnoxious to clear all the guards.
16/12/2017 20:16Posted by Gnubbish
16/12/2017 19:18Posted by Aluthen
I would agree. My suggestion would just be to put the quest givers on a much faster respawn time, some take 10 - 30 mins to respawn which is stupid. The ganker can just one shot then run off and come back later, avoiding any danger.

If the respawns of quest givers were 1 min he would have to spend a lot more time ganking that NPC, and in turn would make himself vulnerable more often for players to attack him back. Especially if the ganker is a rogue who is just killing, vanishing and hiding.

To an extent, as people have said, this disruption is to be expected on PVP servers. City and town raids are a part of the life of the server, that shioudlnt be discouraged. it's the crazy long respawn timers which punish the levellers, moreso than the PVPers.


Yes Im all for increasing respawn timers for quest givers. But not for other civilians! Some civilians should be killed for city raiding because they spawn so many guards. Having these civilians respawn quickly makes it really obnoxious to clear all the guards.


Yes absolutely. Like I only really mean for the key questgivers which are mandatory hand ins to progress. If small side-quests or vendors don’t matter so much as they can just be visited later. It’s only annoying when it’s primary givers to which you’re stuck until you can hand in and move on.
16/12/2017 20:23Posted by Aluthen
16/12/2017 20:16Posted by Gnubbish
...

Yes Im all for increasing respawn timers for quest givers. But not for other civilians! Some civilians should be killed for city raiding because they spawn so many guards. Having these civilians respawn quickly makes it really obnoxious to clear all the guards.


Yes absolutely. Like I only really mean for the key questgivers which are mandatory hand ins to progress. If small side-quests or vendors don’t matter so much as they can just be visited later. It’s only annoying when it’s primary givers to which you’re stuck until you can hand in and move on.


For sure. There really isnt a reason to not have key quest givers respawn quickly just like normal mobs respawn.
16/12/2017 19:05Posted by Heartseeker
16/12/2017 18:11Posted by Vidget
I don't know, if we change one thing who knows what it'll lead to. I think it's best if we don't open the door to changes.


Does that mean we want cross-realm battlegrounds and lagy servers too? Because the second thing will definitely change.


Crossrealm battlegrounds were part of vanilla so I don't see why not. Laggy server should probably considered bug fixing which they've already said they would do.
But I don't think it's right to cherry pick based on what we like or don't like, that opens the door to all kind of changes. If we're allowed to remove things from vanilla we're allowed to add things and I don't want that. It starts with the removal of DHK and ends with LFD or transmog or another ridiculous feature.
16/12/2017 23:40Posted by Vîdget
Crossrealm battlegrounds were part of vanilla so I don't see why not. Laggy server should probably considered bug fixing which they've already said they would do.
But I don't think it's right to cherry pick based on what we like or don't like, that opens the door to all kind of changes. If we're allowed to remove things from vanilla we're allowed to add things and I don't want that. It starts with the removal of DHK and ends with LFD or transmog or another ridiculous feature.


I'm definitely against adding things and I'm not fond of removing things either. But DHKs werent a core part of Vanilla and werent even a thing until later in the game's lifespan.

I wouldn't really see it as removing something, but more of "not adding it". That's assuming of course, that we get a progressive server.

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