Multiboxing is not cheating, keycloning is.

Classic Discussion
05/01/2018 13:59Posted by Maladi
Cheating is, by definition, to violate the rules.
There's no rule violated in this case, so like it or not, it's not cheating. No matter how you call it.


Definition of cheating can be sometimes very subjective... For some it may be "to violate the rules" in this case created by company, but for someone else it could be more... ethical/moral... cheating in relationship (male+female for example) is not against the law or rules but it is hurting other people in some way and it is considered at least as unethical/amoral act.

Lets just put some fact together (dont care if blizz is ok with it or not..)

Is it core game mechanic expected to be used by everyone? NO
Are you equal as a player to m-boxer? NO
Is it in-game advantage? YES
Is it significant advantage? YES - in most cases, depends on your PC and area of use

and as a bonus- it is payed advantage

there are some more questions you can ask yourself...

If you are able to play more characters at the same time just by your self (your hands, eyes, reflexes....) then dude.. Hat down!

Any software assistance outside of the game is cheating... Have you ever seen someone attending official WoW PvP tournament (3v3, 5v5) bz himself with 1PC? NO!... guess why....
05/01/2018 14:32Posted by Mekroth
Definition of cheating can be sometimes very subjective... For some it may be "to violate the rules" in this case created by company, but for someone else it could be more... ethical/moral... cheating in relationship (male+female for example) is not against the law or rules but it is hurting other people in some way and it is considered at least as unethical/amoral act.
No the definition is not subjective in case of a game. Not breaking any rule = not cheating.

You're comparing apples and oranges here. A relationship is not a game, that's two different meanings of the verb "to cheat". Your knowledge of English is maybe not good enough and you confuse both?

05/01/2018 14:32Posted by Mekroth
If you are able to play more characters at the same time just by your self (your hands, eyes, reflexes....) then dude.. Hat down!
Yes, I can. I can play two characters without any software assistance. I've done so, and will do it again, to level my druid + hunter duo in Classic. I dual log on two screens and alt-tab between the two instances of WoW when needed. The DPS does most of the killing while the less efficient character follows.
It's also very handy to have your own enchanter in vanilla, because you had no enchanting velums back then.
Do I get an advantage? Yes. Is it cheating? Nope.

05/01/2018 14:32Posted by Mekroth
Any software assistance outside of the game is cheating...
Automation with third party software (aka "botting") is forbidden, and rightfully so.

05/01/2018 14:32Posted by Mekroth
Have you ever seen someone attending official WoW PvP tournament (3v3, 5v5) bz himself with 1PC? NO!... guess why....
I can tell you why. Because he would get owned by the first 3 or 5 player team, specially the kind of players in official tournaments. Multiboxing is and has always been way less efficient than real players.
Maladi... :) :P
Nothing is cheating if you dont get caught.

Ez logic, works in real life and in games.
05/01/2018 13:59Posted by Maladi
05/01/2018 13:35Posted by Middlekick
It is cheating,just blizz made game rulles so its fit their business plans. You 1 person gain massive advantage- farming,ganging,dungeons almost at all levels multiboxers got advantage.
Pay 2 win.Its do not matter how you call cheating in your familly, or somewhere else,internationaly it is cheating.
Cheating is, by definition, to violate the rules.
There's no rule violated in this case, so like it or not, it's not cheating. No matter how you call it.


"The maximum number of Accounts that a person may register on the Service is limited to no more than three (3) Accounts." old TOS , i bet there is more.

#banmultiboxers/cheaters
05/01/2018 16:46Posted by Kreisi

"The maximum number of Accounts that a person may register on the Service is limited to no more than three (3) Accounts." old TOS , i bet there is more.

#banmultiboxers/cheaters


Nice try, but once again you are wrong.

That is in the Battle.net EULA. Not the WoW TOS. They literally allow you to buy up to 8 WoW accounts under a single B-net in their own system through their own store. So no, that limitation is not about WoW accounts.

So, while that would, in theory, give us a cap of 24 WoW accounts, it was actually clarified on the US side that the limitation is meant to put a cap on the amout of Battle.net accounts with a Blizzard balance and not accounts in themselves. This is why that same line does not appear in the US version, and I would assume it simply has not been revised for the EU one. You can go ahead and cry that it's still a rule and that's fair enough, but it would not affect any boxer up to 24 characters.

#youhavenogoodargument
05/01/2018 17:12Posted by Gnomecapped
05/01/2018 16:46Posted by Kreisi

"The maximum number of Accounts that a person may register on the Service is limited to no more than three (3) Accounts." old TOS , i bet there is more.

#banmultiboxers/cheaters


Nice try, but once again you are wrong.

That is in the Battle.net EULA. Not the WoW TOS. They literally allow you to buy up to 8 WoW accounts under a single B-net in their own system through their own store. So no, that limitation is not about WoW accounts.

So, while that would, in theory, give us a cap of 24 WoW accounts, it was actually clarified on the US side that the limitation is meant to put a cap on the amout of Battle.net accounts with a Blizzard balance and not accounts in themselves. This is why that same line does not appear in the US version, and I would assume it simply has not been revised for the EU one. You can go ahead and cry that it's still a rule and that's fair enough, but it would not affect any boxer up to 24 characters.

#youhavenogoodargument
Yep exactly. I have one single BNet account that contains 4 WoW accounts. One is my old US account from Nov. 2004 and one is a "free" account with some fun level 20 "twinks". The two others are active whenever I play WoW. And it's perfectly legal, no rules broken.
05/01/2018 14:32Posted by Mekroth
05/01/2018 13:59Posted by Maladi
Cheating is, by definition, to violate the rules.
There's no rule violated in this case, so like it or not, it's not cheating. No matter how you call it.


Definition of cheating can be sometimes very subjective... For some it may be "to violate the rules" in this case created by company, but for someone else it could be more... ethical/moral... cheating in relationship (male+female for example) is not against the law or rules but it is hurting other people in some way and it is considered at least as unethical/amoral act.

[/quote]

But this is the classic discussion about legal vs right/moral. Sometimes a thing that is legal is unethical/amoral, and somethings a thing that is right is illegal. But in any legal system only actions that break the law can be punished, and there the actions is legal or illegal, there is nothing subjective, an action break the law or do not break the law, that is always a fact and your opinion wont change what is legal or not, except of you loud your voice to make the ones who make the law to change it, but then that means the amoral thing only became illegal after the law is changed.

Of course there are some times that is not clear if an action is legal or illegal, but that means the authority whit legal power, a judge in real life law, Blizzard in case of wow rules, is the one who must pronunce to make clear if the action is legal or not.

In short, an action is legal or illegal in an absolute manner based on what the law says, anyone can comment on whether something is wrong or good but your opinion will not change the law. In the event that there is some ambiguity then the legal authority is the one that must pronounce its opinion, they are the only ones with the power to decide what is legal and what is illegal.

In this case Blizzard has already pronunce itself many times, multiboxing is not agains their rules. You can think is wrong, but that wont change the fact that Blizzard has made that decision and multiboxers are not breaking the rules, they wont be punished by Blizzard
Classic is even more light weight on rescues than today WOW, means almost everyone will be able to multibox and dual-box including folks with outdated hardware.
Also, bringing up private servers as supposed support for your argument is laughable at best.


Why? We are getting classic servers because of them? Illegal as they may be, they showed blizzard the amount of interest there is for vanilla servers.

It's been support for this to happen at all, laughable as you think that is.
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I agree with the op but it's a very "gut feeling". Officially it's not cheating nor p2w, but somewhere you know this isn't true when someone spending more money than you can shoot lazerbeams (or whatever) from multiple characters at the exact same time, making it impossible for any non rogue to deal with them.
06/01/2018 10:57Posted by Vunde

Why? We are getting classic servers because of them? Illegal as they may be, they showed blizzard the amount of interest there is for vanilla servers.

It's been support for this to happen at all, laughable as you think that is.
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I agree with the op but it's a very "gut feeling". Officially it's not cheating nor p2w, but somewhere you know this isn't true when someone spending more money than you can shoot lazerbeams (or whatever) from multiple characters at the exact same time, making it impossible for any non rogue to deal with them.


Because it's like saying Norway really should do something about their problem with pirates taking over ships because it happens in Somalia. The problem only exists on one and has nothing to do with the other. As such any argument based on this premise is based on a false equivalency and therefore invalid.

And again, you are making the mistake of comparing 5, or however many, multiboxed toons to a single one. Yes, of course the 5 are stronger than 1. That's how it should be. But the same is true for 5 non-multiboxed toons compared to one. As such that discrepancy is not unfair. When you compare 5 multiboxed toons to 5 "normal" ones, there is no advantage. Sure, we get focusfire, but it's fairly negligible. This is why you don't see multiboxers on the arena ladders. It simply is not strong at all on even numbers.

Then it only becomes about whether or not one person should be allowed to own multiple game licenses. For a multitude of reasons it has been decided that it is allowed. Whether your "gut feeling" is that you do not agree with this decission is completely irrelevant. No one cares and quite obviously not everyone, including the people making the game, agree with you. You can't state your own personal feelings on the matter as absolute fact.

I think I've said everything I have to say on this matter in this thread and quite frankly many before it. I'm quite tired of the same old tired and inaccurate statements about multiboxing being spouted by people who tried to go 1v10 and are mad that they end up dying.
06/01/2018 13:50Posted by Gnomecapped
Because it's like saying Norway really should do something about their problem with pirates taking over ships because it happens in Somalia. The problem only exists on one and has nothing to do with the other. As such any argument based on this premise is based on a false equivalency and therefore invalid.


Ah, you mean it was a problem for the pserver(s) but not for something with sub, I take it? Sub makes it kinda worse to me: after all it's more of a p2w than when everyone has the same chances.

But if you meant that instead of "your illegal business shouldn't be mentioned" then I'm glad I asked, as that definitely makes sense.

06/01/2018 13:50Posted by Gnomecapped
And again, you are making the mistake of comparing 5


Again? And 5? It was my first post on this topic and I never mentioned a number. I said multiple, that's 2 and up.

06/01/2018 13:50Posted by Gnomecapped
Yes, of course the 5 are stronger than 1. That's how it should be.


Which is exactly problematic for me: someone with money to buy the hardware + software to get more accounts rolling is stronger. In other words: p2w.

Also, I don't mind someone playing multiple accounts if done as described in the op. I find it a problem when someone can just one button multiple characters.

06/01/2018 13:50Posted by Gnomecapped
arena


Heh. Not only is this the classic forum, I cannot talk about arena because I've never done that at all. Not once. I'm either talking battlegrounds or pve (and some world pvp).

06/01/2018 13:50Posted by Gnomecapped
Whether your "gut feeling" is that you do not agree with this decission is completely irrelevant


Which is clearly why I mentioned it. Like, it's a personal feeling for me. You just felt attacked by it for some reason.

06/01/2018 13:50Posted by Gnomecapped
No one cares


You do, obviously.

06/01/2018 13:50Posted by Gnomecapped
and quite obviously not everyone, including the people making the game, agree with you


I know? I also clearly stated in my post it's nothing illegal nor cheating?

06/01/2018 13:50Posted by Gnomecapped
You can't state your own personal feelings on the matter as absolute fact.


Again, I didn't. I clearly stated it's a gut feeling to do the exact opposite of stating my very personal feelings as a fact.

You seem to feel personally attacked by my post. Let me state that I do not know who you are, nor can I remember ever having a discussion with you before. Your explanations are alright, but it would be great if you could refrain from assuming so much.
I always find Multibox salt hilarious, especially here where most want a much harder game.

Well there you go, a totally random PvP mini world boss that requires team work and tactics to take down bit iss 2 hawwwdddd 2 hawwwwdddd 2 hawwwddddd faw tha paw diddums who really just want the easy version with no surprises.

And for the guys making up the rules about multiboxing, have a search for Preparedwow
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/13040351

That was recorded from Darkspear and Kil'Jaedan US. Probably still posts on their forums about him.
05/01/2018 09:46Posted by Gnomecapped
05/01/2018 00:09Posted by Metalman

Great, so only the rich guys will get to make 5 accounts for themselves


Yes, little Timmy. Only the people who pay for a paid service get to use said service. An airline will not let you on a plane unless you pay for a ticket either, no matter how much you stomp your little feet and cry that you want to go to Fiji too.

Also, if you think affording 5x subscription cost makes one rich, I suggest you re-evaluate your choise of career or your spending habits.


If you think people who aren't rich can afford £50+ a month just for the subscriptions then you're a spoiled little mummies boy who needs to get some experience of the real world.

Multiboxing is cheating and blizzard are literally enabling people with more money than skill. It's 100% bull!@#$e.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Yes, little Timmy. Only the people who pay for a paid service get to use said service. An airline will not let you on a plane unless you pay for a ticket either, no matter how much you stomp your little feet and cry that you want to go to Fiji too.

Also, if you think affording 5x subscription cost makes one rich, I suggest you re-evaluate your choise of career or your spending habits.


If you think people who aren't rich can afford £50+ a month just for the subscriptions then you're a spoiled little mummies boy who needs to get some experience of the real world.

Multiboxing is cheating and blizzard are literally enabling people with more money than skill. It's 100% bull!@#$e.
Tell me please, what is the difference between you getting owned by some guy with 5 accounts, or you getting owned by 5 people with 5 accounts?
At the end, it's the same: you are dead. On your screen, no difference, you see the spirit healer all the same.

The difference, though, is when YOU are with 4 other people, so it's 5 vs 5. You will kill the single guy with his five accounts easily (unless you really suck at the game).

PS: it's amusing you call the people who have money "spoiled mummies boy". I call those people "working adult with a decent job". But I guess that doesn't sound insulting enough for you.
One thing i see a lot of people are completely ignorant about is the fact that a lot of these multiboxers using keyclones are powerleveling up these accounts to sell them off on these so-called mmorpg account auction sites, which is also not allowed.

EDIT: dat typo..
Keycloning is still user input. Besides, keycloning is done at multiple levels in your Operating System. You can't really ban that without it being easily challenged in a legal way.
15/01/2018 17:49Posted by Danellos
Keycloning is still user input. Besides, keycloning is done at multiple levels in your Operating System. You can't really ban that without it being easily challenged in a legal way.


I'm not against multiboxing or keycloning but sure you can ban it if you want. You just add a rule against a single player input controlling more than one character. The rule doesn't have to have anything to do with keycloning directly. Just with what you are and are not allowed to do with it.
As much as I LOVE classic and levelling in it, I just don't have the free time I used to have back when I played vanilla so will definitely be dual logging.
My two main chars I will of course level individually like I did back in the day for the full classic experience, but any alts after that I will be levelling up in pairs.

At the end of the day it's within the rules of the ToS and really, what harm am I doing just keeping to myself levelling up alts in pairs? I don't PvP and will be playing on a PvE server so its not like I'm using them to gain an advantage over another player and dual logging will just be for getting alts to max level and not for any farming purposes.

Real life time is precious, especially now I have a family and commitments so even though I do plan on investing time into Vanilla WoW, I have to be as effcient as possible with the time I have as the majority of that time I will be spending in playing my two main chars leaving little time for alts.
15/01/2018 17:49Posted by Danellos
Keycloning is still user input. Besides, keycloning is done at multiple levels in your Operating System. You can't really ban that without it being easily challenged in a legal way.


It's a 'Use at your own risk' thing.

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