Concerning the Battle for the Undercity

Story
I know it’s a very much a case of waiting to find out for the most part but I am just curious what other folks think about some of these points. Would love to hear your thoughts! Due to the nature of some of my questions I declare this thread a spoiler zone!

Firstly do we know what happens first yet? Undercity Invasion or Teldrassil burning?

Secondly I am really curious about what happened with the Frost Wolves. In Hillsbrad Drek’thar is very clear that they would never help the Forsaken. So did they stand by that until the end? But if so what now happens with them? Do they get wiped out? Exiled from the Horde?

Lastly is this the end of that? Or will the Horde try/succeed in retaking it? I assume we must have some base of operations of the Warfront takes place in Arathi and the Horde wants Stormguarde to serve as its invasion point against Gilneas
We really don't have enough information right now. Best thing to do atm is to just wait and see.
05/02/2018 19:48Posted by Kixith
Firstly do we know what happens first yet? Undercity Invasion or Teldrassil burning?


I believed it was confirmed at some point at the end of November or start of December that Teldrassil burns first and the Undercity Battle is a response to Teldrassil going down.
Also pretty sure it goes "Alliance invades. Burns Undercity, and trashes Tirisfal Glades. Alliance gets forced back ( Not completely) but a bit, making the new Warfronts possible" So essentially, the same as happens with Teldrassil. The City is destroyed, but the attackers are forced out. So again, exactly the same balance. Actually, looks like Horde comes off worse this time, as we don't see Astranaar in ruins the way that Brill is. It might yet be, but given quest text, it pretty much seems like this Expansion is very much "For the Alliance!" with the Horde as the plucky defenders. Which is cool. Its about time the Alliance were allowed to show their darker side. We know they attack Durotar, Thunderbluff, Bilgewater Harbour and Quel'thalas, but as yet there is no datamined text stating the Horde do the same to the Alliance. So fair play. Alliance go full on Jaina on the Horde's !@#. Why not? There is -nothing- wrong with the Alliance being the aggressors here?
05/02/2018 23:58Posted by Brigante
Also pretty sure it goes "Alliance invades. Burns Undercity, and trashes Tirisfal Glades. Alliance gets forced back ( Not completely) but a bit, making the new Warfronts possible" So essentially, the same as happens with Teldrassil. The City is destroyed, but the attackers are forced out. So again, exactly the same balance. Actually, looks like Horde comes off worse this time, as we don't see Astranaar in ruins the way that Brill is. It might yet be, but given quest text, it pretty much seems like this Expansion is very much "For the Alliance!" with the Horde as the plucky defenders. Which is cool. Its about time the Alliance were allowed to show their darker side. We know they attack Durotar, Thunderbluff, Bilgewater Harbour and Quel'thalas, but as yet there is no datamined text stating the Horde do the same to the Alliance. So fair play. Alliance go full on Jaina on the Horde's !@#. Why not? There is -nothing- wrong with the Alliance being the aggressors here?


Astranaar is not an equal comparison to Brill as the Night elves two villages, the starting one + the oracle tree base all lies atop the Teldrassil. The Alliance does not level Deathknell to my knowledge atleast.

I welcome the loss of Teldrassil as i always felt Ashenvale felt way more connected to the nightelves.
Goblins start digging, Syl creates azerite war machine in hopes to attack Stormwind, SI:7 discovers her plans and lunches a 1st strike on Forsaken.

Horde suffers losses and falls back to regroup, humans capture azerite war machine and take it to Darnassus, believing it is the most secure place which Horde can't reach. Gnomes are sent to Darnassus to aid the study. Twilight hammer infiltrates that envoy and infuses Taldrassil with Azerite.

Alliance busy elsewhere, chasing Forsaken, fails to realize what is happening, but Horde doesn't. Special agents are sent to save the world, one way it can be done, by burning the Taldrassil. Horde saves the world by burning down Taldrassil.

Both factions set sails for uncharted lands in hopes to bolster their ranks and find new resources and allys as the stalemate is achieved.

...i would write it like that, far more interesting then "horde burns tree for unknown reasons, alliance retaliates because they are mad"
Lots of interesting ideas about though on reflection I am really unsure about full force alliance defeating full force Horde defending Lordaeron, especially given Lordaeron's proven history at withstanding siege from overwhelming forces.

This is reinforced in my mind by the fact that we know the Horde pushes back hard in the Eastern Kingdoms as Stormguarde is the contested point. It wouldn't make sense they could do that if all their might was in Lordaeron and they still lose in the advantageous position of defence.

With this in mind I think Teldrassil happens first. The Horde isn't expecting a response like the invasion of Lordaeron because why would they? (assuming we did not commit the act) and instead only learn of the invasion when it is closing in on us. Our defence is a quickly raised force and thus no match for the full might of the alliance fist.

This however kick starts of the battle for Azeroth. If THE major battle was essentially the pre-event it would make for a fairly poor story telling I think which is also why I doubt very seriously that we will see a full force conflict so early on. It's something both sides are building up to.
"Concerning the Battle for the Undercity"

Wondering if there is any scarlet or human farmers left in the area.
Blizz prob won't touch on it at all however, in the updated map shows the Scarlet Palisade settlement is still standing.
05/02/2018 23:58Posted by Brigante
Burns Undercity, and trashes Tirisfal Glades. Alliance gets forced back ( Not completely) but a bit, making the new Warfronts possible" So essentially, the same as happens with Teldrassil. The City is destroyed, but the attackers are forced out. So again, exactly the same balance.


Same balance? Unlikely. Not, if we go by cinematics and information so far.

Based on that, we have the Forsaken capital deserted and polluted, half of it in ruins but not occupied by the enemy. But, we see the top half of Teldrassil completely in flames (or, is it showing just an explosion?) and you, like some other posters, use the word ''destroyed''.

Thus, we have Undercity temporaily in ruins and deserted, whilst Teldrassil is destroyed. If that is what you are saying, then we certainly do not have a balance :p
06/02/2018 19:17Posted by Leafie
Forsaken capital deserted and polluted, half of it in ruins but not occupied by the enemy.


You know..scarlets are now have immunity to the forsaken plague just throwing that out there :)

"WHAT?! That's impossible! We've perfected the blight. It has a one-hundred percent lethality.

<The apothecary wrings her hands, concern crossing her unliving visage. Clearly frustrated, she continues in an angry tone.>

This is just really odd. Hand me that flask, <class>. I'm not going to be known as the apothecary that ruined everything!"

from quest : Blighted Last Rites
a good story telling would the siege of Undercity happening first.
though we are likely going to have the Horde being the starters of war again, since Blizzard's pet faction the alliance can do no wrong.
06/02/2018 20:51Posted by Dormus
a good story telling would the siege of Undercity happening first.
though we are likely going to have the Horde being the starters of war again, since Blizzard's pet faction the alliance can do no wrong.


I think the alliance thinks horde are to blame but really it's Wrathion or something.

Big tree fire ? = dragon
06/02/2018 20:51Posted by Dormus
though we are likely going to have the Horde being the starters of war again


It's not "likely."

This is what happens. Teldrassil burns first, then Undercity happens in response.

There could be more, behind the scenes that neither faction knows about.
06/02/2018 20:51Posted by Dormus
since Blizzard's pet faction the alliance can do no wrong.

What are you talking about, Alliance not only make more mistakes than Horde they have committed more atrocities.
- Dwarves have probably killed more of each other than any other race has. They also are the last among the alliance to help out their “allies”

- Gnomes nearly wiped themselves out using chemical weapons

- Humans are the most xenophobic race in the Azeorth universe. From Garithos hating his allies to the inventive use of gladiator arena’s as means to turn the culling of orc population into entertainment, there’s endless history of human bigotry.

- Night Elves runners up on the bigotry award, their basic philosophy is our way, death, or eternal imprisonment. Prepared to let citizens of Orgrimmar starve to death in the streets due to the actions of renegade Forsaken, to put this in context; If you even associate with a race of which some slighted us, we will let you starve to death.

- Worgen built the wall to leave Lordaeron to it’s fate since there was an actual risk involved for them in fighting in the second war. Have relied on Alliance help ever since. During the events of Silverpine it was made crystal clear they have no intentions of fighting honourably but use gruella warfare.
06/02/2018 23:48Posted by Kixith

What are you talking about, Alliance not only make more mistakes than Horde they have committed more atrocities.

Facepalm.jpg
06/02/2018 23:48Posted by Kixith

- Dwarves have probably killed more of each other than any other race has. They also are the last among the alliance to help out their “allies”

That cannot be considered "atrocity" by others.
06/02/2018 23:48Posted by Kixith

- Gnomes nearly wiped themselves out using chemical weapons

Same as above.
06/02/2018 23:48Posted by Kixith

- Humans are the most xenophobic race in the Azeorth universe.

Pure bull !@#$. Because we know that Humans made glory roads out of remains of dead and rape camps(nope they didn't), have going slave system(they don't their Horde counterpart does however), and have continuous to this day conquest aggression(again they don't)

06/02/2018 23:48Posted by Kixith
From Garithos hating his allies

Thing is Garithos hated his "allies" not because who they were but because what they did during 2nd war. Google term Xenophobia - it's hate of someone different from oneself for simple reason being different, hate for actions is not Xenophobia.
06/02/2018 23:48Posted by Kixith
to the inventive use of gladiator arena’s as means to turn the culling of orc population into entertainment,

Considering events of 2nd war this part is crime against common sense - Orcs at end of 2nd war were same things that attacked us during Legion, demons - they were enhanced by fel blood of Monoroth letting them live at that point is one most "Lawful stupid" acts in Warcraft lore.

06/02/2018 23:48Posted by Kixith
there’s endless history of human bigotry.

When it comes off from character whose race treats everyone else as "lowborn scum" it's screams of hypocricy.

06/02/2018 23:48Posted by Kixith

- Night Elves runners up on the bigotry award, their basic philosophy is our way, death, or eternal imprisonment. Prepared to let citizens of Orgrimmar starve to death in the streets due to the actions of renegade Forsaken, to put this in context; If you even associate with a race of which some slighted us, we will let you starve to death.

Plains stupid somehow NE must feed race that did this:
http://media.blizzard.com/wow/media/artwork/warcraft3/grom-hellscream-full.jpg
To them.

06/02/2018 23:48Posted by Kixith

- Worgen built the wall to leave Lordaeron to it’s fate since there was an actual risk involved for them in fighting in the second war. Have relied on Alliance help ever since. During the events of Silverpine it was made crystal clear they have no intentions of fighting honourably but use gruella warfare.

First of all check your facts they are wrong. Second building a wall is not an "atrocity" in any way.
in the light we are one ... exept for the undead abominations, the orc filth, the sellout goblins, the deformed blood elves, the mongrel trolls but the Tauren are pretty cool :D
05/02/2018 23:58Posted by Brigante
Actually, looks like Horde comes off worse this time


'This time'? I rather feel like 'again' would be the operative word.
Facepalm.jpg
My nightborne could have her felguard palm your face for you if you'd like... with an axe


That cannot be considered "atrocity" by others.

Same as above.
So you don't believe something is an atrocity if they did it to their own people? Wow.

Pure bull !@#$. Because we know that Humans made glory roads out of remains of dead and rape camps(nope they didn't), have going slave system(they don't their Horde counterpart does however), and have continuous to this day conquest aggression(again they don't)
Erm. So when that alliance ship crashed on the wandering isle with all the Horde sl- er "Unpaid, prisoners with jobs", that it was as big a surprise to the alliance as anyone that the "totally-not-slaves" were on there? Hah-erm, no, that was a transport ship of slaves and the ship was in alliance banners, with a multi-race crew, so actually that's evidence that the alliance does have a slave system.

The slave system you talk about though isn't a horde system as many of the slavers are not of the Horde. If you are talking about the one to which Varain was once owned by it was definitely not a horde owned ring.

But I agree with you that fel corrupted Orcs were savages. That's why Grom ending the curse was one of the biggest moments in Orcish history and why Garrosh seized the chance to stop the event from happening even though we know he doesn't see a problem with using other dark powers to enhance a warrior. This being the case even most orcs would agree that Fel-corrupted orcs are just evil.

Thing is Garithos hated his "allies" not because who they were but because what they did during 2nd war. Google term Xenophobia - it's hate of someone different from oneself for simple reason being different, hate for actions is not Xenophobia

The actions you speak of were that his father died because the elves had other priorities. Garithos firmly believed they should have been prioritizing protecting human life.

Also that was why he came to hate a entire race. Blaming All elves for the not-even-wrong actions of some... you realise that doesn't justify anything right?

Considering events of 2nd war this part is crime against common sense - Orcs at end of 2nd war were same things that attacked us during Legion, demons - they were enhanced by fel blood of Monoroth letting them live at that point is one most "Lawful stupid" acts in Warcraft lore.

Actually no, in the Arthas novel and in several accounts after they were defeated the fel rage left them and they were left as but husks. Also it's not war to force prisoners into violent bloodbaths against each other. Inhumane is the term and, in this case, an ironic one at that.

The only Karma is that's what happened to Varian.

When it comes off from character whose race treats everyone else as "lowborn scum" it's screams of hypocricy.
I believe that was one person but I will give you our race tends to look down on others. Still that's because the social standards by which we judge each other in our culture other races very much lack in so it can't be helped. We don't brutalise other races like some though...

Plains stupid somehow NE must feed race that did this:
http://media.blizzard.com/wow/media/artwork/warcraft3/grom-hellscream-full.jpg
To them.
The reason Ashenvale is in the state it is now because they don't have to do anything, but actions or inactions have consequences. The trade (and it was trade not charity) maintained peace as it supplied the Orcs with their basic needs. If you try to deny a people's their basic needs to survive of course they are going to fight for it.

Beyond that, I believe Cenarius slaughtered them first without warning or diplomacy. Grom and his clan then drank Mannoroth's blood and again I'm not disagreeing that Fel-Crazed orcs aren't evil. But in this case, Cenarius picked a fight and it backfired majorly.

07/02/2018 05:17Posted by Exdur
First of all check your facts they are wrong. Second building a wall is not an "atrocity" in any way.


Okay I can admit when I made a mistake, I wrongly assumed the wall went up around the time Gilneas pulled all its forces back and allowed the Horde free passage to lay siege to Lordaeron during the second war. As it turns out it was cheaper to build the wall than to support the internment camps the surviving Orcs were kept in which they then did they cease to support. Later totally closing off the outside world once the barest hint of a plague was sniffed.

So you are right, building a wall is just fine. Abandoning your allies in their darkest hour of need is cowardly though, and withdrawing all support to allow the Orcs to even live, even if they were in poor conditions, isn't an atrocity but just really really lame.

I guess Gilneas are just spineless cowards who would build a 100ft wall if it got them out of their responsibilities, my bad.
07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith
My nightborne could have her felguard palm your face for you if you'd like... with an axe

You won't be able to lift it.

07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith
So you don't believe something is an atrocity if they did it to their own people? Wow.

Learn how to read, I said it cannot be considered atrocity by others it's an internal conflict, you know how much of those modern Horde has?
Orcs vs Garosh Orcs and 2nd war leftovers from BR.
BE vs HE and now VE
Kezan vs Venture
Mulgore vs Grimtotem
Darkspear vs rest of Trollkind(minus some tribes and now half of Zandalari)
Forsaken vs Scorge
It can get even more detailed but I cannot bothered with.

07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith
Erm. So when that alliance ship crashed on the wandering isle with all the Horde sl- er "Unpaid, prisoners with jobs", that it was as big a surprise to the alliance as anyone that the "totally-not-slaves" were on there? Hah-erm, no, that was a transport ship of slaves and the ship was in alliance banners, with a multi-race crew, so actually that's evidence that the alliance does have a slave system.

So many civilized nations of our real world have slave system because they force prisoners to manual or other labor?! That's same reasoning what was behind 2nd war where alternative is murdering them like Horde does.
07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith

The slave system you talk about though isn't a horde system as many of the slavers are not of the Horde. If you are talking about the one to which Varain was once owned by it was definitely not a horde owned ring.

Nope, I mean peon system where there whole group of Peo...Orc treated like second class citizens.
07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith

But I agree with you that fel corrupted Orcs were savages. That's why Grom ending the curse was one of the biggest moments in Orcish history

Blatant lies, Orcs not stopped being brutes after Grom death they single-handedly forced NE into Alliance by continuing their transgressions on NE lands that continued in Vanilla.
07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith
and why Garrosh seized the chance to stop the event from happening even though we know he doesn't see a problem with using other dark powers to enhance a warrior. This being the case even most orcs would agree that Fel-corrupted orcs are just evil.

Then they should also agree that Iron Horde is also evil - but thing is they are brown they don't even have leftover juices of fel unlike your Horde orcs and yet they did all the same what Horde did prior 1st war. Slave and rape camps.

07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith

The actions you speak of were that his father died because the elves had other priorities. Garithos firmly believed they should have been prioritizing protecting human life.

Do not lie please he was sent to help Quel'Thalas when they were attacked by Horde, his hometown was razed in meantime. He blamed HE because Lordaeron protected HE who nominally were part of AL but in truth only Alleria followers were fighting with Alliance, action(inaction) of Quel'Thalas led to city being sieges by Horde if they were truly dedicated to AL which part they took it would never happen.

07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith

Also that was why he came to hate a entire race. Blaming All elves for the not-even-wrong actions of some... you realise that doesn't justify anything right?

Sure whatever, your lore illiteracy is only your problem. He never faced "entire race" ones he interacted with were son of Anasterian and surviving military of Quel'Thalas people he reasonably held responsible for what happened during 2nd war.

07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith

Actually no, in the Arthas novel and in several accounts after they were defeated the fel rage left them and they were left as but husks. Also it's not war to force prisoners into violent bloodbaths against each other. Inhumane is the term and, in this case, an ironic one at that.

They why no one bothers to do same with, Eredar, I mean saving them because you know without fel energies they are far more civil than pure orcs, what is the case of this hypocrisy? They were husk you say? Husks of Vanguard of Burning Leagion I say, somehow orcs given free card for what all blame rest of BL races.

07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith

The only Karma is that's what happened to Varian.

Funny how Horde stans like you blame Varian for what prison guard in other country did, while at same time using excuse of "but they are not ebul without fel", at same time denying Alliance claim to Lordaeron country where Durnholde was at same time glorifying all little "achievements" that first Horde has while denying any responsibility for it's actions. Like for example calling you capital Orgrimmar, it's as if after WW2 Germans rename Berlin into H i tlermar while claiming that they aren't n a zi anymore. How much D chess of hypocrisy is that?

[
07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith
I believe that was one person but I will give you our race tends to look down on others. Still that's because the social standards by which we judge each other in our culture other races very much lack in so it can't be helped. We don't brutalise other races like some though...

You mean like what you did to each other in Suramar manastarving to degeneration, using each others souls as fuel, exiling and list goes on. While I said that atrocities within the reace not for others to blame you taken diametrical stance. So going by your logic you are worst of kind. But let's not forged allying with BL - atrocity against rest of Azeroth one of the worst.

07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith
The reason Ashenvale is in the state it is now because they don't have to do anything, but actions or inactions have consequences. The trade (and it was trade not charity) maintained peace as it supplied the Orcs with their basic needs. If you try to deny a people's their basic needs to survive of course they are going to fight for it.

Meh, just play damn WC3 instead of repeating this stupid mantra they came to Ashenvale to build military camps not to satisfy their basic needs unless you are implying that Orcish basic needs is slaughter.

07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith

Beyond that, I believe Cenarius slaughtered them first without warning or diplomacy.

You believe wrong, warsongs killed off dozens of elves and few ancients before Cenarius came attacking.
07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith

Grom and his clan then drank Mannoroth's blood and again I'm not disagreeing that Fel-Crazed orcs aren't evil. But in this case, Cenarius picked a fight and it backfired majorly.

Nope they are willingly took fel because their power were not enough to commit crime, it's as evil as one can get.

07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith

So you are right, building a wall is just fine. Abandoning your allies in their darkest hour of need is cowardly though, and withdrawing all support to allow the Orcs to even live, even if they were in poor conditions, isn't an atrocity but just really really lame.

Thing is Gilneas did not abandon their allies they formally left Alliance and built the wall afterwards, only ones you can blame for "Abandoning your allies in their darkest hour of need" is Quel'Thalas for which Garithos blamed them too, even more so, they even left Alliance afterwards like Gilneas(despite AL saving their lives) and had not one but 2(!!!) natural fortified forest walls.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/e/ed/Quel%27thalasWC3.JPG

07/02/2018 14:24Posted by Kixith

I guess Gilneas are just spineless cowards who would build a 100ft wall if it got them out of their responsibilities, my bad.

Trowing tantrums does not reinforce your argument either, they proposed direction(not to mention it was right one) for Alliance to take rest refused so Glineas left which was very reasonable action. You know that HE left under pretext(excuse) that Quel'Thalas was not protected enough by Alliance during a war, just imagine how Garithos would have felt at the time.

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