Dear 11/11 Mythic Players, give me one "Pro" on removing ML.

General
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18/03/2018 19:34Posted by Ressist
18/03/2018 18:20Posted by Museki
If I loot a 960 trinket from Varimathras (Which isn't the best for monks) and my only trinkets are 950/950 - I won't be able to trade it


You are able, there is no item level requierment to trade PL anymore. This is the stupid part. It is bizzar to remove ML, when you could just trade all the gear to the raid leader and the RLC decide who gets what anyway.
And if they impliment item level requierment again... Oh boy... This is where the !@#$storm begins.

there is a ilvl requirement to trade, but due the legendaries in legion you can trade most stuff anyway. But if they keep it for bfa it will suck, got something with 5ilvls higher but thats 30ilvl upgrade for other guy to bad you cant give it him.
<Retracted>
18/03/2018 19:34Posted by Ressist
18/03/2018 18:20Posted by Museki
If I loot a 960 trinket from Varimathras (Which isn't the best for monks) and my only trinkets are 950/950 - I won't be able to trade it


You are able, there is no item level requierment to trade PL anymore. This is the stupid part. It is bizzar to remove ML, when you could just trade all the gear to the raid leader and the RLC decide who gets what anyway.
And if they impliment item level requierment again... Oh boy... This is where the !@#$storm begins.
Where did you read the item level requirement has been removed?

I can't find it anywhere.
18/03/2018 13:12Posted by Minhaven
Blizzard, wanna get involved into the discussion? Oh no, wait, Exorsus beat your raid within a day because of splitruns.


Watch out. EU justice warriors on blizzards side tend to delete well written threads that get a lot of support from playerbase without warrning.

One thing I might add to the point of trading PL loot - I am certain, 100% sure that most (not all, but overwhelming majority) players if they loot anything that has higher numbers on itself will keep them even if they get a 1% or .5% upgrade and someone else would've had a 15% upgrade. I've been in several guilds over the years and when it comes to GL/PL this is the case, whether somebody likes it or not. Also amounts of RNG in WoW at the moment is heavily cancerous, hope it spreads to the guys responsible for its implementation into the game.
Personal loot has the upside of cutting down drama in loosely organized raids, which I assume to be the majority of raids, this should fit in with the community feature set coming in BfA.

On the other hand fixed roster raiding will suffer from the inability to place tools in the best hands, considering that guilds are fast becoming a vestigal organ from WoW's past, I say that this is an intetional and pre-meditated change.

Consider the following; Legion was the experimental design space for WoW's future, the outstanding features being:

1) World quests, daily busy work which feeds in to character power and resources.
2) Mythic plus, daily and meaty albit transient content which again feeds in to character power.
3) Artifact power, the spine of post cap advancement, all systems feed in to this one.
*) Note that none of these activities require a guild.

Battle for Azeroth is doubling down on this pattern with:

1) Heart of Azeroth amulet which will be the linchpin for all post cap advancement.
2) Islands, mini M+ dungeons if done well, transient and no fixed group needed.
3) Warfronts, no details yet but if the pattern holds they will be fairly meaty, feed you power and resources while, again, not requiring a fixed group.

Summary and TL;DR
WoW is changing to a more bite sized content scheme, guilds are surplus to requirement, Master Loot is simply one of many systems to be pruned from the game, say your farewells.
11/11m raider here o/ I'm glad I know you're joking - There isn't a pro >.> Wouldn't mind if the change was active for N/HC, but there's zero reason to let this change go live in mythic.

18/03/2018 23:45Posted by Goetic
Personal loot has the upside of cutting down drama in loosely organized raids, which I assume to be the majority of raids, this should fit in with the community feature set coming in BfA.


Loosely organized raids are overwhelmingly run with Personal Loot anyway.
18/03/2018 23:45Posted by Goetic
Personal loot has the upside of cutting down drama in loosely organized raids, which I assume to be the majority of raids, this should fit in with the community feature set coming in BfA.

On the other hand fixed roster raiding will suffer from the inability to place tools in the best hands, considering that guilds are fast becoming a vestigal organ from WoW's past, I say that this is an intetional and pre-meditated change.

Consider the following; Legion was the experimental design space for WoW's future, the outstanding features being:

1) World quests, daily busy work which feeds in to character power and resources.
2) Mythic plus, daily and meaty albit transient content which again feeds in to character power.
3) Artifact power, the spine of post cap advancement, all systems feed in to this one.
*) Note that none of these activities require a guild.

Battle for Azeroth is doubling down on this pattern with:

1) Heart of Azeroth amulet which will be the linchpin for all post cap advancement.
2) Islands, mini M+ dungeons if done well, transient and no fixed group needed.
3) Warfronts, no details yet but if the pattern holds they will be fairly meaty, feed you power and resources while, again, not requiring a fixed group.

Summary and TL;DR
WoW is changing to a more bite sized content scheme, guilds are surplus to requirement, Master Loot is simply one of many systems to be pruned from the game, say your farewells.

Did you eat those strange looking mushrooms or what?

Guilds are the reason for MANY, MANY, MANY people to stay subbed. Game doesn't evolve, game devolves into simple MOBA game with random group making.

If they're going to nerf guilds to the ground or even removing them then say farewell to WoW :)
Guilds are the reason for MANY, MANY, MANY people to stay subbed.

Do any of the current or future development features of WoW indicate the dev team agrees with your sentiment?
18/03/2018 23:24Posted by Tankarden
hope it spreads to the guys responsible for its implementation into the game.
Oh I hope the people saying PL loot shouldn't be even tradeable (https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17618024364?page=1) and enforced should feel it. ToS mained this mage, never looted a single ring till last run before 7.3.2 finaly dropped one on HC. DH never looted a single ST trinket ever since ToS release! I hope they kill a boss mutple times a week with seals with PL and face the same nightmare I still face. Never loot that anything for certain slots, untill the very last day of the tier if lucky, then get benched or forced to switch mains due to bad RNG!

But hey people like RNg they will have it, afterall all of us who like group loot or ML for this very reason are just ninja's for some disturbed, hidden and dark reason.
18/03/2018 20:02Posted by Cysia
there is a ilvl requirement to trade, but due the legendaries in legion you can trade most stuff anyway. But if they keep it for bfa it will suck, got something with 5ilvls higher but thats 30ilvl upgrade for other guy to bad you cant give it him.
So?
Again, I can see how that may be frustrating somewhat.

But it's not like this situation is setting your guild back compared to others. Just treat it is a bad-luck-junk-loot situation - same as you treat junk disenchant items in your raid currently. Also "not a bis" doesn't mean it's not an upgrade. Yeah for another guy this may be more of an upgrade, but his luck will come next time, with something else.

Or when you throw a coin and get the same result - an item useless for you but BIS for another. The reaction is generally "Oh well, can't trade it, move along."

Your problem is that you fail to realize how raid progress time, loot and loot drop rate would all be balanced around each other. You picture yourself a dark image of gearing taking months because no one is getting what they want and half of the players are super-unlucky while a few others get all the BIS they want and are miles ahead of the rest of the raid.
The reality will be much less scary. For example, your raid may end up getting more items on average than it does now, to compensate useless loot issues that you name.

It's not that bad.
19/03/2018 01:04Posted by Mirtle
18/03/2018 20:02Posted by Cysia
there is a ilvl requirement to trade, but due the legendaries in legion you can trade most stuff anyway. But if they keep it for bfa it will suck, got something with 5ilvls higher but thats 30ilvl upgrade for other guy to bad you cant give it him.
So?
Again, I can see how that may be frustrating somewhat.

But it's not like this situation is setting your guild back compared to others. Just treat it is a bad-luck-junk-loot situation - same as you treat junk disenchant items in your raid currently. Also "not a bis" doesn't mean it's not an upgrade. Yeah for another guy this may be more of an upgrade, but his luck will come next time, with something else.

Or when you throw a coin and get the same result - an item useless for you but BIS for another. The reaction is generally "Oh well, can't trade it, move along."

Your problem is that you fail to realize how raid progress time, loot and loot drop rate would all be balanced around each other. You picture yourself a dark image of gearing taking months because no one is getting what they want and half of the players are super-unlucky while a few others get all the BIS they want and are miles ahead of the rest of the raid.
The reality will be much less scary. For example, your raid may end up getting more items on average than it does now, to compensate useless loot issues that you name.

It's not that bad.


"We shouldn't mind that we're losing because so is everyone else"
19/03/2018 01:18Posted by Ellipsìs
"We shouldn't mind that we're losing because so is everyone else"
Why do you even THINK that you are losing. You'll get your gear, no worries. Your guild will clear mythic just as it always did.

What changes?

Oh, maybe you are afraid that the system means slower progression because a lot of the gear is wasted? Well, see here, bunny - the speed of raid progression has nothing to do with how much gear items your raid gets. There are several reasons as to why.
1) More often than not, if you kill a boss that means you've performed its mechanics. If your raid's DPS was 10% lower, chances are you'd still have killed it, just 20 seconds slower. In my experience, it's a very rare case when a boss dies by the skin of your teeth.
2) More importantly, raid progression and difficulty is balanced by Blizzard around the expected raid gearing speed. This means that the new loot system is already there in the formula.
3) Lastly, as long as everyone's clearing conditions are the same - it doesn't matter how long it takes to complete a raid. Over the years we've had raids that were cleared by most guilds in 3 weeks, and we had those that took an average guild months to wipe through. And nobody panicks! If in BFA everyone's progression through the raid is slow, then all you can blame is this raid's tuning, and not the loot system.
Man, it's not about what is good or bad. It's just another way to decrease the gap between casual and hardcore players.

Decreasing the gap between players is Blizzard's number one philosophy and priority since wotlk.

One day we may lose any kind of character progression and there will be only cosmetic rewards for completing harder content.
19/03/2018 01:04Posted by Mirtle
18/03/2018 20:02Posted by Cysia
there is a ilvl requirement to trade, but due the legendaries in legion you can trade most stuff anyway. But if they keep it for bfa it will suck, got something with 5ilvls higher but thats 30ilvl upgrade for other guy to bad you cant give it him.
So?
Again, I can see how that may be frustrating somewhat.

But it's not like this situation is setting your guild back compared to others. Just treat it is a bad-luck-junk-loot situation - same as you treat junk disenchant items in your raid currently. Also "not a bis" doesn't mean it's not an upgrade. Yeah for another guy this may be more of an upgrade, but his luck will come next time, with something else.

Or when you throw a coin and get the same result - an item useless for you but BIS for another. The reaction is generally "Oh well, can't trade it, move along."

Your problem is that you fail to realize how raid progress time, loot and loot drop rate would all be balanced around each other. You picture yourself a dark image of gearing taking months because no one is getting what they want and half of the players are super-unlucky while a few others get all the BIS they want and are miles ahead of the rest of the raid.
The reality will be much less scary. For example, your raid may end up getting more items on average than it does now, to compensate useless loot issues that you name.

It's not that bad.


Are you a professional troll? Or just daft? Dropped as a baby maybe? I don't know how else to explain it to you. Gear is the moving factor for mythic progression! . PL right now gives roughly equal amount of loot as ML with the difference that specific items have way lower chance of a drop. And we all know how Blizzard like making "balanced" trinkets. Add to that weapons, or have you forgotten that a mele or a Hunter without a decent one is garbage, no matter how much Titanforge crap he is wearing?

You have your precious PL for Mythic +, you can join one of the thousands casual guilds using it, leave it at that. The guilds that want to progress into mythic, especially those who are good enough to down bosses fast from the start absolutely, without exceptions are using ML. You are not a part of it, you will never be a part of it, so why are you defending a system that doesn't effect you at all?
19/03/2018 05:17Posted by Mirtle
Well, see here, bunny - the speed of raid progression has nothing to do with how much gear items your raid gets.


Hahahaha. So top guilds doing 8 split runs/ week is just for funzies.

By the way you talk, i'm 100% sure you have never progressed a boss without overgearing it.

19/03/2018 05:17Posted by Mirtle
1) More often than not, if you kill a boss that means you've performed its mechanics. If your raid's DPS was 10% lower, chances are you'd still have killed it, just 20 seconds slower.


Let's see all the cases this statement is flat out wrong this expansion. Ursoc, Ill'gynoth,Cenarius,Odyn,Guarm,Krossus,Tychondrius,Star Augur,Gul'Dan,Mistress Sassz'ine, Fallen Avatar, KJ, Kin Garoth, Argus.
Literally the dumbest decision they can make.
18/03/2018 23:55Posted by Goetic
Do any of the current or future development features of WoW indicate the dev team agrees with your sentiment?

Maybe M+ ;)

Personally I play only because of my guild. They removed almost every feature I loved in WoW and I'm sure there are more people who play only because of their guild. Removing reasons to play with guild will cause huge damage to the playerbase.

Blizzard's "To do" list currently looks like that:
- remove master looter
- remove any maths from gearing
- remove more spells and abilities so players can bind them to Q, W, E, R
- nerf warriors prot
- buff druids
- remove any danger from world content

Hahaha, looks like World of Communism is on the way :D EVERYONE'S EQUAL XDDD
19/03/2018 05:17Posted by Mirtle
19/03/2018 01:18Posted by Ellipsìs
"We shouldn't mind that we're losing because so is everyone else"
Why do you even THINK that you are losing. You'll get your gear, no worries. Your guild will clear mythic just as it always did.

What changes?

Oh, maybe you are afraid that the system means slower progression because a lot of the gear is wasted? Well, see here, bunny - the speed of raid progression has nothing to do with how much gear items your raid gets. There are several reasons as to why.
1) More often than not, if you kill a boss that means you've performed its mechanics. If your raid's DPS was 10% lower, chances are you'd still have killed it, just 20 seconds slower. In my experience, it's a very rare case when a boss dies by the skin of your teeth.
2) More importantly, raid progression and difficulty is balanced by Blizzard around the expected raid gearing speed. This means that the new loot system is already there in the formula.
3) Lastly, as long as everyone's clearing conditions are the same - it doesn't matter how long it takes to complete a raid. Over the years we've had raids that were cleared by most guilds in 3 weeks, and we had those that took an average guild months to wipe through. And nobody panicks! If in BFA everyone's progression through the raid is slow, then all you can blame is this raid's tuning, and not the loot system.


This is so incredibly frustrating to read. It's very clear that you don't raid mythic and that's fine, but your arguments are just so uninformed. This will be very detrimental to mythic guilds, not just the top 10.

Dps is very important. You scoff at 10% raid dps as if that is nothing, boss would just have died 20 seconds later right? 10% raid dmg is HUGE. It's not just about killspeed, fights have certain dps checks you need to make in order to transition properly, e.g. pushing Argus to phase 2 before 8th rage cast. If you fail this the timers for the entire 2nd phase are different and might as well wipe. The impact gear has is absolutely massive.

The speed of a raid clear also matters greatly. We're a 2 day raiding guild on a busy server. We compete with a lot of other guilds and world rank usually is an important factor that recruits take in to account when they decide what guild they apply for. We're a bit lucky because the guild has been around since 2005 and has a reputation which is a reason some apply, but not all.
I don't even raid with a guild and see the problems of removing ML. Keep it as it is, personal loot should stick to pugs.
19/03/2018 08:37Posted by Izyla
This is so incredibly frustrating to read. It's very clear that you don't raid mythic and that's fine, but your arguments are just so uninformed.
Ahem. I not only raided, but was a raid-leader for several expansions, and not only in WoW. It's true that with Legion I took a more laid-back approach so technically at the moment I don't raid, but that changes nothing about the breadth of my experience.

Of course dps matters. OF COURSE it does. My point is that raid content gets BALANCED around the expected DPS of a raid group. If said expected DPS is lower because of funky loot system - the content will be BALANCED around it.

You are crying rivers in threads like this based on some misplaced feeling of "control" that Blizzard is taking away from you. Let me tell you that in all my years of raiding, I never once saw ML decisions to be a deciding point in progression speed. More often than not, it's a guy trying to distribute !@#$ fairly and failing, because you can't keep in your head a full log of what and when you gave to somebody.

Yes, gear matters. And it will continue to matter. But as long as everyone are in the same boat - it doesn't take anything away from your relative speed of clearing the content. If you are skilled, you will clear the raid faster. If your guild sucks and people are leaving every week - you will clear the content slower, but then I suggest you to blame your leadership and not the "bad loot system that gives items to trials".

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