Dear 11/11 Mythic Players, give me one "Pro" on removing ML.

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The only pro I can see with removing master loot is that all those players who *think* the only reason they aren't in the worlds first race is because they don't do split runs will have their eyes opened!

I got burned out in Tomb and haven't really done much in Antorus. I'm not X/Y mythic and play in a small guild on a small server. In the years I was raiding; I think I saw a handful of ninja looters but it was nowhere near as prevalent as it seems to be if you read the forums.

Our raid team is a half and half mix of experienced players who PUG stuff all the time and then a number of players who struggle for various reasons. We have players who have physical limitations but still enjoy raiding. It took us a long while to clear Tomb normal as a guild -before you start shouting 'git gud scrubz' that is our guilds' collective level and we are happy with it. It means that our less able players get to see content without the toxicity of LFR.

Removing ML will hurt our guild (probably) more than the big boys, if personal loot continues as is. It will mean that those of our players who already out gear the content we are running because they are already pugging higher content will have limited options to pass over gear to those for whom it will make a big difference.
19/03/2018 09:54Posted by Mirtle
the content will be BALANCED around it.


THEN FIX THE F*N TITANFORGE SYSTEM! Because that is the REAL problem! Don't remove ML, which btw has nothing to do with the problem devs are trying to fix, because you like the carrot on a stick, the "endless progression" due to RNG!
Changes show in last QA are really bad. In currently expansion only 4 trinkets are really good for WW monks and 2 are from Dungeons.

So If I will drop super high item level trinket I want it give to some one else because I don't use it because it have ultra random/low chance to proc! And ltos of trikets have bad mechanic like random fireball or random knifes throw in random side. Stop doing craps like this. when my mage casting spell his trinket activate and cast knifes in random direction and pull every mob around. I hate this so much.
19/03/2018 05:17Posted by Mirtle
Why do you even THINK that you are losing. You'll get your gear, no worries. Your guild will clear mythic just as it always did.


So if nothing but trash drops until 2 weeks before tier is over, nothing is lost you have 2 weeks to progress and clear mythic (because dont forget you will have, DPS, Heal and Tank checks along the way on top of mechanic checks and idiot checks).

19/03/2018 05:17Posted by Mirtle
the speed of raid progression has nothing to do with how much gear items your raid gets. There are several reasons as to why.
1) More often than not, if you kill a boss that means you've performed its mechanics. If your raid's DPS was 10% lower, chances are you'd still have killed it, just 20 seconds slower. In my experience, it's a very rare case when a boss dies by the skin of your teeth.


o.O - Please post from your main and prove to us all your talking from experience. Because right now your statement looks like the voice of inexperience. As someone mentioned above, gear is CRITICAL in fights. My most memorable fight (to name a different one from those mentioned before) is Mannoroth. I personally loved that fight, but its a very good example of how gear matters.
Too little gear and things wouldn't die in time when needed which affected other timers and it was all too easy to become overwhelmed. By targetting the right people with the right gear you could ensure, say, imps got blown up when needed. Instead of missing that AOE burst because lady luck didnt smile upon your group this tier.

19/03/2018 05:17Posted by Mirtle
2) More importantly, raid progression and difficulty is balanced by Blizzard around the expected raid gearing speed. This means that the new loot system is already there in the formula.

:D
Nighthold.......Titanforging....For anyone worth their salt I don't need to say any more.

19/03/2018 05:17Posted by Mirtle
3) Lastly, as long as everyone's clearing conditions are the same - it doesn't matter how long it takes to complete a raid. Over the years we've had raids that were cleared by most guilds in 3 weeks, and we had those that took an average guild months to wipe through. And nobody panicks! If in BFA everyone's progression through the raid is slow, then all you can blame is this raid's tuning, and not the loot system


Thats just it though, everyones clearing conditions will NOT be the same. The system will select random people who are to get loot, it will then select random items from a pool of gear the can equip and use. This does not mean it is of any use to them.
It is inevitable some groups will get more than lucky with their gear drops, while others cop out. This on its very own makes the playing field uneven.
Then on top of this every group is different, some might be more reliant on DPS, whilst others healers and another needs an even spread across dps, tanks and heals.

With ML each group can focus gear to where it helps their group instead of waiting on some random system to eventually dish out whats holding you back.

No more is this evident than it was at the start of Legion and the complete mess we had with legendaries.

I really cannot understand why keeping ML is such a big problem for people ?
I honestly can foresee many issues arising from this. And my take has always been, if I dont feel good about it, I will leave.
I did already twice earlier this xpac, came back for new patches to see if it improved. It was by shear FLUKE I got the legendary I needed the 2nd time which got me to stick around.

Right now though, im not sure how long BfA will keep me playing.
I got almost 30 kill on Argus and I still have no trinket. Personal is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo GOOD.
19/03/2018 10:20Posted by Plamcia
I got almost 30 kill on Argus and I still have no trinket. Personal is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo GOOD.


Your character shows 20 kills on Argus.
You have no trinket. I feel truly sorry for you and this is just the upmost of !@#$ that can happen. I feel sorry for you, but I'll take you as an example.

This guy has 20 Kills on a Boss where Personal Loot is forced. ( the trinket ) now imagine just 8-9 guys getting this unlucky in BFA in the first raid, it'll take ages to clear content, because there will be healchecks ( Ilgynoth ) there will be Tankchecks ( Imonar ) and there will be DPS checks ( Krosus ).

The argument: Everybody has personal loot so it's not loosing if everybody is is bull%^-* because I guaran-!@#$ing-tee that some guilds, a lot of guilds will have bad luck but have good players and they just can't beat the timers.

Blizzard balancing raids around that? Who said that, Mirtle? My %^-. Look at the last raids that came out. No way.
19/03/2018 10:35Posted by Minhaven

Your character shows 20 kills on Argus.


I am farming them on my alts too so summary it is around 30 kills :( Even my guild leader is frustrated because only I am nto getting trinket in our raid group.
19/03/2018 10:38Posted by Plamcia
19/03/2018 10:35Posted by Minhaven

Your character shows 20 kills on Argus.


I am farming them on my alts too so summary it is around 30 kills :( Even my guild leader is frustrated because only I am nto getting trinket in our raid group.


Ouch, that really sucks :s I hope you get it soon. Dont forget you get only 1 chance per week regardless of difficulty, so dont burn out over it.
19/03/2018 10:38Posted by Plamcia
19/03/2018 10:35Posted by Minhaven

Your character shows 20 kills on Argus.


I am farming them on my alts too so summary it is around 30 kills :( Even my guild leader is frustrated because only I am nto getting trinket in our raid group.


At least as a WW monk you actually want it. Mine at 1k ilvl isn't even an upgrade :/
19/03/2018 11:09Posted by Ellipsìs

At least as a WW monk you actually want it. Mine at 1k ilvl isn't even an upgrade :/


Because bis trinkets are Eye of Command from Karazhan, Chaos Talisman from Violet Hold, Bloodthirsty Instinct from Emerald Nightmare and Specter of Betrayal from Tomb of Sargeras.

So I had very low chance to get them on high item level(960+).
Agree with the original post, it's absolutely horrible for guilds for all the reasons you mentioned.

In addition to that it has impacts on how raiding guilds are run. You covered the trials part, but that's not all. If I have a raider who announces he's gonna be away from progress for a month or so because of workings schedules or whatever, I wanna stop giving him loot that OTHERS WILL NEED for progression during this raider's time away. Now my solution will be to have him out so that he can't accidentally get loot?

Also EP/dkp or whatever system guilds use is used to promote consistency by many. Raiders that attend all raids might get bonus EP, a player that doesn't show up without letting you know might get extra GP/-dkp. All these little things that helps raid leaders maintain the raidteams will be tougher.

A problem that I've seen is more tied to the Warforged/Titanforged system. The main reason content is dropping fast is that players were already geared for Antorus Heroic when the raid released, due to ridiculous WF/TF procs. If they instead gated the content to make players need gear from the new raid's Normal mode this would be fixed. But without WF/TF the non-raiders/pugging players woudl fall even farther behind, and its clearly these players Blizz cares the most about. So sadly I don't think this matter is going to change anytime soon, even if it's the best solution to the problem.
19/03/2018 09:54Posted by Mirtle
I not only raided, but was a raid-leader

you were :)
19/03/2018 09:54Posted by Mirtle
But as long as everyone are in the same boat - it doesn't take anything away from your relative speed of clearing the content.

Just one question - why should we accept situations where someone dies at the start of the encounter from standing in fire and then that dude gets loot LITERALLY FOR DOING NOTHING. One dps dead at pull and raid has to deal with boss for another 30+ seconds, which CAN BE HUGE DIFFERENCE.

With ML removal people WILL guild hop. That's for sure. You won't be able to trust anyone. It's one of the worst ideas Blizzard ever thought about. It's even worse than LFR.

And don't worry, your "rude douche ML" will just kick people or intentionaly wipe. There will always be way to abuse system.

Forcing into Personal Loot is bad. Period.
Are you sure, that you still cant trade higher item level pieces to someone else? Because i geared up 11 classes, mostly to 940+ and gearing my most recent ones i could trade items that were higher ilvl, than my own, while i also didnt have a legendary for that slot. So im unsure if they made a fix of some sort, or is that just an alt thing.

Anyway, i dont see why this would be a problem for most of the ppl. Pugs used personal loot anyway. Guildies will still be able to give the loot they dont need to others. No tier tokens, so no problems with ex. only-druid tokens being unusable if there is no other druid in the group, etc.

Splits work or not, depends if what i said first, is true or not. Cause my guildies experienced this aswell. Playing our alts, they could trade high gear, that they before, couldnt.

This change might hit mythic guilds in one way or another, but it wont have much effect on me. If my friends wont need a leather item, or a healing trinket, i can get it. If i dont need something, i will give it to them. No tier tokens, lot less trouble with loot distribution. Otherwise i would argue, because of how currently tiers drop on personal loot system, but :)

19/03/2018 12:31Posted by Verdill
Just one question - why should we accept situations where someone dies at the start of the encounter from standing in fire and then that dude gets loot LITERALLY FOR DOING NOTHING. One dps dead at pull and raid has to deal with boss for another 30+ seconds, which CAN BE HUGE DIFFERENCE.

With ML removal people WILL guild hop. That's for sure. You won't be able to trust anyone. It's one of the worst ideas Blizzard ever thought about. It's even worse than LFR.

And don't worry, your "rude douche ML" will just kick people or intentionaly wipe. There will always be way to abuse system.

Forcing into Personal Loot is bad. Period.


?? If you are not in a guild, you couldnt use master loot whole expansion with pugs. If you are in a guild, and you have a problem like this, then... uhm...you are not in a real guild. Or have weird trust issues.
19/03/2018 12:50Posted by Hina
If you are in a guild, and you have a problem like this, then... uhm...you are not in a real guild. Or have weird trust issues.


Wait, so REAL guilds dont use ML or would prefer not to use it ? Thats funny.
19/03/2018 14:11Posted by Healkicks
19/03/2018 12:50Posted by Hina
If you are in a guild, and you have a problem like this, then... uhm...you are not in a real guild. Or have weird trust issues.


Wait, so REAL guilds dont use ML or would prefer not to use it ? Thats funny.


Guy's having internal struggles, I guess :/
19/03/2018 10:10Posted by Ressist
THEN FIX THE F*N TITANFORGE SYSTEM!
Ahem. Breaking news - they are doing it in BFA and talked about it in pretty much every interview.
If this went past you while ML did not - this just takes a lot out of the credibility of what you are saying. In such a case, you are basically admit to being underinformed and howling at the reflection of the moon on the surface of the lake.
Master loot just gets abused in guilds to take advantage of those doing equal work to reward more to themselves.

Now they're crying they can't do it anymore.
19/03/2018 12:31Posted by Verdill
Just one question - why should we accept situations where someone dies at the start of the encounter from standing in fire and then that dude gets loot LITERALLY FOR DOING NOTHING.
You shouldn't accept it. You should make that person change his game to the better.
If he still doesn't live up to your raid's standards, you should find a replacement for him in your raid. This would be a fair solution both towards him and your raid.

And if someone F-ed up once, it doesn't mean he's a piece of sh*t and deserves to be punished for it by taking his loot. I don't know who you are raiding with, but in my experience raiders aren't monkeys and are sapient enough to understand their faults without a Daddy-Raidleader punishing them with loot and DKP.
19/03/2018 18:56Posted by Shaozu
Master loot just gets abused in guilds to take advantage of those doing equal work to reward more to themselves.

Now they're crying they can't do it anymore.


Sorry, you're mentally adorable.

If people stay in guilds where it gets abused, they won't last long and if people stay, it's their fault.

Sorry. Just saw you're 0/40 Mythic. Explains your stance.
19/03/2018 18:56Posted by Shaozu
Master loot just gets abused in guilds to take advantage of those doing equal work to reward more to themselves.

Now they're crying they can't do it anymore.

nah it was used to give loot to one whod gain most out of it. If goal is to kill bosses as fast you can its best to give loot to guy who gets 100k out of the item instead of guy who gets 30k out of it.
A good loot council is Always the best option to gear as a guild as loot goes to where biggest gain for raid is. Aoe burst fight upcoming like mannoroth was with imps, gear your aoe burst dps and not your st specalised dps. Fight with high tank dmg as tectus last phase or brackenspore, gear your tanks. Dps check upcoming gear your highest ST dps first.

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