State of the Horde, is it really still the Horde?

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18/02/2018 22:14Posted by Brigante
18/02/2018 20:00Posted by Tinsoran
For me the Horde makes no sense whatsoever. I mean you give control over to a Warchief which is often many miles away, perhaps on another continent. Often the Warchief is a different race, different ideals heck isnt even alive.If originally it was all about survival than fair enough. A tempoary alliance perhaps. Long term though doesnt make sense.


To be honest, both Horde and Alliance are like much more power consolidated versions of The Commonwealth in our real world, an aggregation of Nation states that share common values and interests. All of them have their own heads of state, and autonomy in their own affairs.

The difference, is that in our world, the head of the Commonwealth, Queen Elizabeth II actually has no power over the other Commonwealth states, it is a titular position, whereas in Warcraft, the Warchief, and High King, has authority.

Neither Alliance nor Horde is what could be classed as an Empire, as the definition of an Empire is where one party was dominant to the degree that it conquered the others and brought them under their sphere of influence, this never happened with either faction in WoW, so they are not truly Empires. Interestingly, in this sole regard ( And oh my word I am not painting the Horde as a democracy, it clearly is not, only the Gnomes have Democracy), but in this sole regard, the Horde seems to be more akin to the democratic Commonwealth in our real world (When, heavens forfend, Queen Elizabeth II does pass away, Charles III becomes King of Great Britain, not Head of the Commonwealth- in fact they are already discussing who takes over next). So the 'Commonwealth' of the Horde can clearly be held by any of the constituent states, Orc, Troll and Forsaken so far, whereas the Alliance 'Commonwealth' seems to be a dynastic one so far, or at least with one state, Stormwind, being dominant. Whether this changes we will likely never see, as we see King Anduin Wrynn as an old man, still ruling, in one of the stories.

The reason I mention the Commonwealth as an example, is because that too is an organisation that spans the entire globe, with member states on almost every continent, just as Horde and Alliance are , and yet it is still titularly overseen by one person.

So really, distance and being on other continents is no obstacle to a federation of nations, especially when power is much more centralised, as it is with both Alliance and Horde.


I agree to a degree and I like the analogy.

However I don't agree that the Horde is like the Commonwealth. Like you said QE has no executive powers, she is a symbolic head of state only. The Warchief of the Horde however has complete control over it's members. In essence a Dictatorship. Yes the individual leaders are allowed to run their territories themselves but as we have seen with Garrosh, the Warchief seems to have the power to override and even station troops of his own command wherever he likes. Much to Sylvanas fury to have her own guards removed. The High King of the Alliance has no such executive powers.

For me the Horde makes more sense as it was originally, the Orcish Horde. An Empire with Undercity, Silvermoon etc... all conquered territories under the command of the Warchief. The players then loyal members of an Imperial Horde. At present it seems conflicting, why completely give control to a Warchief when just agreeing a protection treaty makes more sense. Especially the Allied Races who just because Tyrande threw a paddy you bow down and give power to an Undead leader you just met. Really doesn't make sense, from a story perspective at least.
I'm not going to lie some of this goes a bit over my head but the little I do understand are war powers. That is to say in times of war an absolute hierarchy is necessary to prevent problems with the chain of command*. As neither faction has really come off alert in decades this has simply been maintained. The title of Warchief is perfectly self explanatory with this and as the Warchief appears to have little to no say in the economic or daily goings on of each Horde race I think the role is purely one for conflicts that would affect the faction as a whole.

Well it's a nice theory until I consider the Alliance, then it kind of falls apart. Varian had been MIA for so long he was presumed KIA, and when he did return he had the worst case of schizophrenia imaginable, thus highly unstable. He actually remained very unstable until later in Pandaria. Frankly I was upset (speaking as a predominantly Horde player) he was killed off as he had finally been rounded off as a well rounded King. Now it seems to be Andiun in the top seat. So I can safely rule out the same kind of governmental system as the Horde. I personally think it's basically the EU, several separate factions are in it, those with the biggest resources get the biggest say. So while Night Elves and Dwarves do have huge influence as a whole, each are segmented and only factions of each whole are the lot that threw in with the alliance. The Wildhammers for instance clearly just have a defensive alliance and nothing more.

* As much as I love the notion the chain of command is the chain Jayne beats you with until you understand whose in rutting command
Who let Iresea lose? Someone should put her back in the cage to prevent the spread of corruption. Ugh, the bias and praising makes my eyes bleed.
19/02/2018 19:04Posted by Cinderhoof
Who let Iresea lose? Someone should put her back in the cage to prevent the spread of corruption. Ugh, the bias and praising makes my eyes bleed.


*Puts Cinderhoof back into his tent*
Shhh~
19/02/2018 19:04Posted by Cinderhoof
Who let Iresea lose? Someone should put her back in the cage to prevent the spread of corruption. Ugh, the bias and praising makes my eyes bleed.


Well, we were racing our imaginary Stormwindian steeds through the grocery store the other day and I felt something was missing in my life as a brutish savage ungracing these forums...
I'll be honest, are you after Thrall's Horde? Then no. That Horde is dead and buried, it died during Cataclysm and never had a chance to come back. We NEVER saw the Horde so much as attempt to return to it's Thrall era. It simply existed in a state of leader limbo where we were told things were happening, but we never saw them happen.

However, if you're after the original Horde? Yes. Sylvanas' Horde is very much the Horde that came through the Dark Portal and sparked off the First War. It's no longer fighting for survival, for it's own little niche, it's fighting for dominance over the world and it's using methods that may well ultimately destroy it.

How long will it be until we see Azerite superweapons being deployed? How long until Blight canisters rain down from Forsaken bat riders upon the inhabitants of harmless towns?

Mark my words, this war will likely break the Horde as we knew it forever, because at this point it should be clear that the people who sought peace are no longer in the majority. The Tauren, the Trolls, the remnants of Saurfang's generation of Orcs, they no longer possess any real kind of power within Sylvanas' Horde, and they'll be dragged into the war whether they like it or not.

The Highmountain and Shal'dorei will soon realize the error of their ways when they see the atrocities the Forsaken will commit in 'service' to the Horde, and they'll find themselves trapped by ill considered oaths into a war that will doubtless see many of their number killed for siding with the wrong faction, and will forever tar their races as supporters of those who would happily use WMD's like the Blight and Azurite to kill the defenseless in the name of dominance.
Sylvanas' Horde is very much the Horde that came through the Dark Portal and sparked off the First War. It's no longer fighting for survival, for it's own little niche, it's fighting for dominance over the world...


Completely wrong.

19/02/2018 23:24Posted by Tsaila
Mark my words, this war will likely break the Horde as we knew it forever, because at this point it should be clear that the people who sought peace are no longer in the majority.


I would love to see the reaction of Alliance fans if blizzard would let the Horde win this last war :)

But i wouldn't bet on it because if Alliance lose, subscriptions go down pretty hard, if Horde lose people take it like grown ups.
20/02/2018 16:47Posted by Icybabê
I would love to see the reaction of Alliance fans if blizzard would let the Horde win this last war :)

But i wouldn't bet on it because if Alliance lose, subscriptions go down pretty hard, if Horde lose people take it like grown ups.


Yeah but I don't think anyone will "lose" this time, Blizzard is all about parity in this expansion and they said that BfA will finally close the cycle of the faction war (forever?).

So there are only two outcomes:

-The Alliance gets essentially everything in the Eastern Kingdoms (except for Quel'thalas) and the Horde gets all of Kalimdor (except for the Draenei isles)

- the status quo will be preserved, and the Forsaken will get Lordaeron back (possibly making Andorhal as their full new capital, at least for the near future) and the Night Elves get Northern Kalimdor back, either healing Teldrassil or moving to Ashenvale.
20/02/2018 16:53Posted by Velsyana
So there are only two outcomes:

-The Alliance gets essentially everything in the Eastern Kingdoms (except for Quel'thalas) and the Horde gets all of Kalimdor (except for the Draenei isles)

- the status quo will be preserved, and the Forsaken will get Lordaeron back (possibly making Andorhal as their full new capital, at least for the near future) and the Night Elves get Northern Kalimdor back, either healing Teldrassil or moving to Ashenvale.


I was actually thinking outside the box and one faction would be victorious :)

But i guess it's rather a dream...
Horde need more orcs (c)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCem2c_apoM
20/02/2018 16:47Posted by Icybabê
I would love to see the reaction of Alliance fans if blizzard would let the Horde win this last war :)

But i wouldn't bet on it because if Alliance lose, subscriptions go down pretty hard, if Horde lose people take it like grown ups.


I think both sides would take it pretty hard tbh. While I think that in my own experience Alliance tend to be less mature, they also tend to follow the lore less as a whole. Most Horde main's seems to know the gist of the story at most points. Of course this is just from my perspective.

That being said one side having a victory would be awesome to me, even if it's the Alliance that win. Reason being no one has actually got in a solid win over the other since Warcraft 2. I want story development that's not just fanservice with them pussy-footing around so no one has their little feelings hurt. They never hesitated to kill off other major characters, Arthas, Deathwing, etc because they needed story. Well why is that limited to non-faction characters exactly? It doesn't really make sense when you consider that many characters that were put up as a boss and killed off, most of which without much in the way of further story telling, had more of a fan base than even most faction leaders.
Yes it is still the Horde.
20/02/2018 16:47Posted by Icybabê
Sylvanas' Horde is very much the Horde that came through the Dark Portal and sparked off the First War. It's no longer fighting for survival, for it's own little niche, it's fighting for dominance over the world...


Completely wrong.

19/02/2018 23:24Posted by Tsaila
Mark my words, this war will likely break the Horde as we knew it forever, because at this point it should be clear that the people who sought peace are no longer in the majority.


I would love to see the reaction of Alliance fans if blizzard would let the Horde win this last war :)

But i wouldn't bet on it because if Alliance lose, subscriptions go down pretty hard, if Horde lose people take it like grown ups.


won't happen the horde has lost every war they have ever waged it's the horde nature to lose infact that that blizzard is writting them as some kind of power house after they got demolished in mist is completely absurd and this disgraced diablo team needs to get canned this rule of the cool is getting a bit out of hand
20/02/2018 16:47Posted by Icybabê
...

Completely wrong.

...

I would love to see the reaction of Alliance fans if blizzard would let the Horde win this last war :)

But i wouldn't bet on it because if Alliance lose, subscriptions go down pretty hard, if Horde lose people take it like grown ups.


won't happen the horde has lost every war they have ever waged it's the horde nature to lose infact that that blizzard is writting them as some kind of power house after they got demolished in mist is completely absurd and this disgraced diablo team needs to get canned this rule of the cool is getting a bit out of hand

Could you stop spreading horde hate evrywhere and say as stuff you made up is true cannon more.
21/02/2018 06:30Posted by Justiça
...
Could you stop spreading horde hate evrywhere and say as stuff you made up is true cannon more.


but trolling and baiting the horde is so fun :D despite saying you won't bite you always do ;)

Ok you admited youre a troll. Now actully discuss things as forum is for or leave. Either way youre not bringing anything usefull to any thread here. Now shush troll.
<span class="truncated">...</span>
Could you stop spreading horde hate evrywhere and say as stuff you made up is true cannon more.


but trolling and baiting the horde is so fun :D despite saying you won't bite you always do ;)


You realise that’s quite explicitly reportable right?
It’s mentioned in the Code of Conduct:
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/code-of-conduct/
21/02/2018 06:30Posted by Justiça
but trolling and baiting the horde is so fun :D despite saying you won't bite you always do ;)


Thanks now I can report all your troll posts.
or maybe im just trolling about trolling since most people claim im trolling anyway the fact is that i simply don't agree with your troll'ish views thus im trolling the horde has been going down hill since classic its a warped corpse of what it used to be and thats my honest view take as a troll if you want but it's not
21/02/2018 12:55Posted by Justiça
or maybe im just trolling about trolling since most people claim im trolling anyway the fact is that i simply don't agree with your troll'ish views thus im trolling the horde has been going down hill since classic its a warped corpse of what it used to be and thats my honest view take as a troll if you want but it's not


To quote a certain dead dictator, "Times Change".

A Stagnant Horde makes as little sense as a stagnant Alliance, the Horde has been through many iterations, I mean we've had The Original Horde, Gul'dan's Horde, then Thrall's Horde, Garrosh's Horde ( The True Horde) as he called it, the Actual Horde ( The ones that deposed Garrosh), then the 'Horde as Family' under Vol'jin, and now the way that Sylvanas is taking it.

None of them have been quite the same, and I disagree that the Horde has went downhill. It has evolved. It has moved with the times. Whinging about that is futile, it is like those people who whine about Forsaken and Blood Elves in the Horde, or complain when there is a non-Orc Warchief. Get over it. You want a faction where one race is constantly in control, roll Alliance.

Looking back at that Horde in Classic and thinking that is all the Horde can ever, or should ever be is another form of daft nostalgia. It is a sign that someone doesn't understand the core ethos of the Horde as it stands, and just wants to play 'big stronk' races'.If the 'Old Horde' had not accepted the Eastern Kingdoms races, it would simply no longer exist.

Stagnation is bad for any culture, incredibly bad, even more so if your rivals are -not- stagnating, even more so if your rival has reached out to those races you ignored, and got them onside. ( I mean, its not like the Alliance don't already have Undead, and they've shown that by accepting Void Elves they have no problem with elves with morality issues).

Wanting the Horde to stay as a faction of big brutish 'evil' creatures as I say, is just buying into the LotR fanfic some people (Usually those who main Alliance) wish WoW could be. Blizz actually played a very smart move in showing that 'savagery is savagery, whether clad in furs and leathers, or in silken robes' It is the mindset and method, not the pure aesthetic, that makes for savagery.

I am however glad that you admit you are trolling Justica, as I would otherwise be genuinely worried about your mental health, as in, you don't play on an RP realm, I do. Your posts read as if you think you -are- an actual member of the Alliance, and are not able to distinguish your character from yourself. Despite playing on an RP realm, I am well able to keep that distinction. I was going to give constructive critique as to how to keep that distinction, but as you have admitted you are trolling it hardly seems worth my time.

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