Leveling sucks! How to fix it?!

General
Hi.

Although 7.3.5 have brought flexible leveling with it, many players still complain about the leveling experience. Flexible leveling is a great idea, it just doesn’t work well with WoW’s current system. The intend with the new flexible leveling, is to make the world more “accessible” when leveling. However, the current core system doesn’t allow it to be just that, and here’s why:

We as players like to get rewarded, that’s why we play. The more we work for it, the better the reward, that’s just basic human psychology. The main problem here is heirlooms. Hotlinebling, why heirlooms? Well, because it simply removes any feeling of being rewarded throughout the leveling journey. What ya do when you create a new character? Create full set of heirlooms through your tab, mount your Chauffeured Mechano-Hog, and start your boring !@# journey to level 110 (Or buy a boost *laughing*). So, what is to be done about it?? Well scrap it all! Remove heirlooms from the game completely. Compensate players in gold depending on how many heirlooms they currently have, and how many times they’ve been upgraded.

So, what’s instead? Very simply, x% experience increase, that you will be able to access upon reaching level 60 (only works for your alts up until level 60 aswell) and afterwards you’d be able to raise its cap, upon reaching level 70, 80, 85, 90, 100 and eventually 110. Let’s say you just made a new account, reach level 60, and you’d be able to buy x amount of experience %increase for all your alts between 1-60. Get to level 70, and the cap of your experience increase will be raised to level 70, that you’d be able to toggle on any other toon below 70. If you have a max level character, you very simply have already unlocked them all, meaning you can have experience increase all the way till max level.

What is this system going to do? First of all, you will no longer feel like a fake $%^ Bruce Lee on your level 1 character, you actually have to go out and get your gear, rather than creating it through a tab, and having a personal taxi driver. Second of all, you now have the ability to progress your character. Doing quests and dungeons will feel more rewarding than ever. Not only are you benefiting from the experience increase, you’d also be getting new gear on your journey, rather than sticking with the same gear all the way till level 110. Make it so players are rewarded with a blue quality piece of gear, upon completing all quests within a zone. Not only is this going to motivate people to continue leveling, it is going to make players want to finish the storyline at each new zone (which is made possible with flexible leveling) to get that blue piece of gear (other rewards could be given aswell). Now that heirloom is gone altogether, make professions give better gear rewards. Thereby, players are way more motivated to pick up professions along the way. Also, when mobs are overtuned, people without heirlooms are currently going to suffer, and if mobs are undertuned, peeps with heirlooms are gonna suffer. With heirlooms gone altogether, they can focus on scaling mobs to fit us all.

You could give players x amount of experience increase upon grouping up with people. With the new scaling system set, it could make mobs scale depending on the size of a given group. An additional player would mean that mobs would get x% more health and do x% more damage. That could allow for a new tab, where you can group up with people doing same quests as you. Not only are you getting to benefit from the experience increase, you are also getting to socialize with people. Sort of like an outdoor dungeon, all thanks to the scaling system.

Some people think that characters lack abilities even at max level, others like the pruning system. Each man, each opinion. But, leveling your characters just feels very dull, because you very rarely get new abilities. Make it so we once more have to visit our class trainers to learn our abilities, make the abilities have different ranks aswell. Ultimately, we could go back to the talent tree system pre-mop, where you got a point for each level you reached over 10, making you able to progress and upgrade, essentially at each new level. Maybe even add more abilities, I mean, lots of people want it to happen, and it is sure is going to make the leveling experience much more enjoyable. Altogether, these class changes are going to mean that people feel like they are progressing their character at each level. It’s going incentivize players to continue their journey to max level. This could very well be the alternative to the artifact passive upgrades, which you only access at level 110, which currently makes every class feel useless up until reaching that point.

Ultimately, with the leveling sorted out, there would no longer be a need for character boost. Therefor, it should be removed.

And yes, leveling currently sucks! It’s not necessarily because we’ve all done it before, but purely because the current system isn’t working properly. There is simply no sence of progression nor is the player getting rewarded. Everything mentioned above, is going to allow leveling to once more be apart of the game, rather than a gateway to max level.

Ty for reading.
Leveling fine with the small exp boost coming to dungeons.
The old talent system was just the illusion of choice, the vast majority looked up guides on how to spec right. essentially ending up with the same few cookiecutter builds per spec that was deemed optimal.

And what you are describing is just adding needless tedium to the player experience.

The only thing i could agree to is that the exprewards for older content needs to be drastically increased. Perhaps based on your number of 110s or just trippling the +xp on heirlooms. The faster you reach the current expansion, the less need for a clunky system like the old talent trees.

And we need a level squish to 60. And give players the choice of expansion to level up in, prior to the final expansion at the last 10 levels
17/02/2018 00:59Posted by Sintarius
The old talent system was just the illusion of choice, the vast majority looked up guides on how to spec right. essentially ending up with the same few cookiecutter builds per spec that was deemed optimal.

And what you are describing is just adding needless tedium to the player experience.

The only thing i could agree to is that the exprewards for older content needs to be drastically increased. Perhaps based on your number of 110s or just trippling the +xp on heirlooms. The faster you reach the current expansion, the less need for a clunky system like the old talent trees.

And we need a level squish to 60. And give players the choice of expansion to level up in, prior to the final expansion at the last 10 levels
Not exactly. The amounts of options and different playstyles it allowed was unimaginable. I'd call the artifact weapon upgrades an "illusion of choice" because there is only really one route to go
You can't do xp increase without proper strong looms, it's something you guys never think about. That's great so you get 300% extra xp but you level so fast your gear is way too old to function anymore. Xp must be tied to gear or looms has to be there to support the xp bonus.
Most of the socalled playstyles wasnt viable at all, and provided trap choices. So its good the specs got properly codified.
Removing heirlooms and replacing with a buff does not work.

You're going to outlevel your gear severely and become extremely weak at your level.

Gear mattered at low level, back when you didn't have so many expansions to go through.

BC/WOTLK/CATA/MOP/WOD/Legion.

People have already suggested buffing heirloom xp / adding more heirlooms.

Don't want to level faster?

Don't use em.
17/02/2018 00:59Posted by Sintarius
The old talent system was just the illusion of choice, the vast majority looked up guides on how to spec right. essentially ending up with the same few cookiecutter builds per spec that was deemed optimal.


Vast majority? I think you give the playerbase too much credit (and I don't mean that detrimentally). The 'vast majority' of the playerbase are non-HC dungeoners/raiders and would almost certainly never visit a WoW site to assist their character development (in my opinion ofc)

17/02/2018 00:59Posted by Sintarius

And what you are describing is just adding needless tedium to the player experience.


To the small minority yes.

17/02/2018 00:59Posted by Sintarius

The only thing i could agree to is that the exprewards for older content needs to be drastically increased. Perhaps based on your number of 110s or just trippling the +xp on heirlooms. The faster you reach the current expansion, the less need for a clunky system like the old talent trees.


Not sure about this; I can see the reasons but I think the point you made below would be better.

17/02/2018 00:59Posted by Sintarius


And we need a level squish to 60. And give players the choice of expansion to level up in, prior to the final expansion at the last 10 levels


I like this idea though.
17/02/2018 00:59Posted by Sintarius
The old talent system was just the illusion of choice, the vast majority looked up guides on how to spec right. essentially ending up with the same few cookiecutter builds per spec that was deemed optimal.

And what you are describing is just adding needless tedium to the player experience.

The only thing i could agree to is that the exprewards for older content needs to be drastically increased. Perhaps based on your number of 110s or just trippling the +xp on heirlooms. The faster you reach the current expansion, the less need for a clunky system like the old talent trees.

And we need a level squish to 60. And give players the choice of expansion to level up in, prior to the final expansion at the last 10 levels
Not exactly. The amounts of options and different playstyles it allowed was unimaginable. I'd call the artifact weapon upgrades an "illusion of choice" because there is only really one route to go


yes exactly....the old talent trees gave you so many choices, none of which were right if you wanted anything close to decency at endgame, hence the continual tabbing out to Thottbot to get the correct talents.
For those who say that we would outlevel gear, you are forgetting that the scaling system exists. What could be done about it? Well either, blizzard could make it so the gear you are rewarded with at level (lets just say:) 10, will scale 5 levels with you. Therefor, the gear you get will stay relevent for a while.

OR, you could decrease the total number of levels in the game. This would mean that it would take longer overall to reach a new level, BUT won't take longer to reach max level overall because of the fewer amounts of total level. Therefor, you would be rewarded with better gear at around same time as you ding, with mobs scaling properly.

That would mean that classic zones go from 1-30 forexample. Even prestige levels work aswell.
The Old talent trees where just cookie cutter copies all of them, many classes only had 1 or 2 viable specs and some only 1, it didn't promote much variety beacause if you where going to do any of the higher level content then you had to copy the cookie cutter specs and playstyles on Thottbot.

Even today min maxing does ruin alot of fun in many games, beacause it removes choice and freedom, while we have greater choice and freedom today there is still very much an optimisation race going on with the talents and trinket department.

Personally leveling is fine how it is right now, it's not classicaly slow leveling which I thank Lord Tachanka for beacause I don't want to go back to that but it is right in the middle which is fine.
Before the World levelled up with your character (and still, tbh, some untested areas excepted), you really didn’t need on-level Gear to do pre-Cap content, it is silly to claim otherwise. The WoD Squish made this even more the case, with TBC Socket Gear (gained from Loot Corridors, Questing and PvP) being basically ok right into Pandaria (and beyond, actually).

Similarly, the old Talent Tree system not only was so good it was copied by other games, it did provide the psychological advantage of a feel of progression, and you actually had choices, it all depended on what you were doing with that character - it made no sense whatsoever to Spec for a End of Tree Talent if you weren’t ever going to level to Cap and engage in the activity Icy Veins were talking about with the character in question (something completely lost on too many Alt Levellers and one of the reasons the ‘unkillable Twink’ trope came about, Twinks Specced and Glyphed for what was best for their activity iso Current Crap Raiding/e-sport wannabe).

As for replacing Heirlooms becaue of all the warping they did to the game and playerbase: been saying that since Wrath.

Personally, I’d replace them with a Shirt of Expediency (flat XP buff in the +100% to 300%) and gift players with one or more choice Vanity Items from the defunct CCG and other such out-of-game promotional items of their choice according to how many and how Upgraded Heirlooms they have.

On a sidenote, I actually like the idea of Chauffeur Mounts, they could make Racial versions of those you could acquire on characters that are Exalted with the Home City in question.

But good luck getting it done, the Power Creep Heirlooms brought to the Levelling Game from the Power Creep Current Crap lands they came from may be one of the root causes why balancing the game is so difficult for Blizzard , that doesn’t mean root causes will be adressed.

In that sense too many of the player base get exactly the kind of ‘rulership’ they deserve.
IMO i like heirlooms as i earned the right to choose to use them, but the exp nerf in this patch went too far - they need to make adjustments as i think making my 11th 110 etc is getting pretty damn tedious having to a solid 45+ hour grind when i've done this content countless times for nearly 10 years.
17/02/2018 00:59Posted by Sintarius
The old talent system was just the illusion of choice, the vast majority looked up guides on how to spec right. essentially ending up with the same few cookiecutter builds per spec that was deemed optimal.

Even into TBC many people just chose what they found was good,hell even to this day they take the talents that "feel" just better.
I'm talking about the vast majority here,not everyone was raiding.
17/02/2018 09:28Posted by Apatha
Personally leveling is fine how it is right now

No it is not. It's broken,now matter through how many layers of happiness you see it.
Been leveling a druid, it's painful.
Up to level 60, the new level scaling tech is great. It's after then that it goes wrong really fast. I'd suggest they reduce to level cap to 80, and merge all from TBC to Legion into the level 60-80 range, to make levelling less monotonous.
Leveling has never before been as !@#$ty as it is now. Having been through the same content for multiple times it's way too boring to enjoy leveling a new char at all.

If a player allready has multiple 110's why force him to level through dead content again?

How bad is it that players WANT to pay to not have to play the game? I'd pay a smaller amount myself but 60€ just seems money hungry as even the new expansion didn't cost that much and i can't support that.

Please try to make the leveling fun.
How blizz forces you? What do you want a free 110 boost for every class you miss?
Im slowly levelling alts for allies. is boring and long but that's it.
Well, imho it was improved by no longer pushing us through ALL the expansion, of which we hardly got a feeling before we moved to the next xpac half-way through the second zone (as a matter of speaking).
And of course it's going to suck because it takes more time than you want it to take and you're basically not doing what you actually want to do: take your 110 to end game content.

The problem I have is that leveling is no longer a community thing. People are speeding through content as fast as they can, uncaring, bored and by themselves. The community is at the top. There is nothing for low levels but to quest. PvP is pointless at low to mid level, as is the AH, as often is actual instancing.

I still like leveling, because I like character development and getting a feel for my char.
with heirlooms the xp gain needs to be increased by a lot, currently at higher level ranges you need around 30-35 quests to gain one level, this needs to be more in the order of 15ish per level to make progress in questing feel worthwhile.

questing in the upper level zones +60 is very boring, with old tedious quest chains, limits on where you can go and generally a feeling of very slow progress making it feel like you have to force yourself to log on and level/play

I hate the questing so much in these zones I just boost myself through dungeons as much as possible to get up to 90, this in itself is boring but I would prefer 20mins of boosting through a dungeon boredom to get 2 levels to questing in the same time to not even get 1 level.

while the scaling does make the levelling for those players that want to redo old content and gives a more playable experience for new players for those of us that just want to level new characters or new allied races up the experience is not remotely fun/engaging/or good game design to demotivate a player to the point they don't want to do the content

I raised the issue when the dungeon boost nerf came in, that levelling was being made far to slow for players that just want to level as painlessly up as possible, trying to force players that don't want to be in old levelling zones is not a good thing to do.

I really hope when the stat squish comes into effect the levelling speed will be very much improved because a core part of BFA is allied races and once there is new BFA content to play in do you really think players will want to spend weeks ploughing through old content levelling multiple allied races from 20 to 120.

I for one will have no interest in doing it, the only reason I currently am levelling some up is because there is no new content to play.

it needs fixing very soon

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