How Alterac Valley is like for the Alliance

Battlegrounds
Today one of the people from my group described in a very poetic way how Alterac Valley feels for Alliance players:

Every time the battleground starts, Alliance players go to Drek'Thar like immature teenager boys in front of the girl's bathroom. They just stand outside, occasionally teasing him.
Then the Horde wins and everybody wonders what just happened.

And it's like... every AV group.

Okay, almost every AV group, sometimes by pure coincidence we win.
Nobody should care about why randoms lose the game. You lose AV not because it designed for Horde/Alliance but because you can't adapt to the map and enemy tactic.
No, it's just that we're no longer living in Vanilla times (quoting myself).

Alterac Valley is too complicated for random 25-man groups. People lacks skills.

In modern, post WOD times, we need only simpler BGs like Seething Shore.
18/03/2018 17:58Posted by Grodor
Alterac Valley is too complicated for random 25-man groups. People lacks skills.

AV/IoC is not about personal skill at all.
18/03/2018 17:58Posted by Grodor
In modern, post WOD times, we need only simpler BGs like Seething Shore.

Yeah. This is why AV turns into boring PvE sh!t. Keep it going and you can just remove it after few simplifications.
«Run straight to the boss and zerg him asap before your enemy made the same» is an example of complex PvP game. WoW, 2018 year. I just want to scream something like «How stupid you can be if this kind of PvP is too complex for you?» about this sh!t.
18/03/2018 17:56Posted by Лекта
You lose AV not because it designed for Horde/Alliance but because you can't adapt to the map and enemy tactic.


Not always. It feels to me that EU players can, but often don't want to adapt (to the Russian tactics for example), because they prefer to not bother, lose quickly and requeue.

However today I noticed something that worried me more than this. What happened:
1. We decided to fight. Russians blocked the way to their commander, we saw this and decided to go around and attack towers. In the same time we defended our towers. (a very rare sight, but it happened). So with this tactic, we should have won against Russians.
2. But we lacked dps. Russians created sort of "second mini-blockade" in front of TP and IB. They were not a few people, but not many either. With good dps this blockade should have been broken, but we couldn't. Heals were good and enough, but dps...And we lost because of this. The battle continued for reinforcements and was equal for a long time.
Then we just got fed up with this. We literally gave them Balinda and the game ended.

Russian players not only follow tactics, but also strive to be skilled in their class/spec, and this often can be the reason for win. EU do not bother.
18/03/2018 18:56Posted by Ternezia
Russian players not only follow tactics, but also strive to be skilled in their class/spec, and this often can be the reason for win. EU do not bother


That's right. We saw this yesterday.

Today we won AV after a grueling almost one-hour battle. It was excruciating.

In the end, we won. By reinforcements and by holding the bridge...

I have to say, many European players lack patience. We changed like half of the team.
Well, patience also has its limits. Sometimes one is in a mood for reinforcement battle, other time people are tired and prefer to requeue. Russians have that weird attitude to fight until the end no matter what.

*I forgot I am still not talking to you.
In general Alliance players are so used to winning without doing any thinking that they just tap the towers, dont defend them and just all run to noob hill and stand there, some periodically poking drek out of boredom and dying for the 5 minutes it takes for towers to either pop or for Horde to retake them from right under their noses.

In general Horde players are so used to losing that they would rather get it over with quick and mirror the Alliance method, rather than recap those towers and win.

The above doesnt seem to apply to German and Russian realm groups who generally seem more bothered about the outcome, so put some effort into it.
18/03/2018 18:56Posted by Ternezia
Not always. It feels to me that EU players can, but often don't want to adapt (to the Russian tactics for example), because they prefer to not bother, lose quickly and requeue.

It change nothig in my point: you can't adapt because you don't want it.

18/03/2018 18:56Posted by Ternezia
Russian players not only follow tactics, but also strive to be skilled in their class/spec, and this often can be the reason for win. EU do not bother.

More people = less skill depends. You no need huge dps to focus people in zerg — you can't outheal damage of 5+ dps guys if it's not high even. Russian players just care more about win (this is for what they join not just «I don't care about win, I don't care about team — I just want to pew-pew and introduce my new transmog») and what's going on on BG.
EU also join for win, but if we lose it's not the end of the world
(well recently Alliance plays like &^$# so the situation is exceptional), but generally, through all the expansions I played bgs, we Europeans see it as just a game.
It change nothig in my point: you can't adapt because you don't want it.


100% correct

EU players in general would prefer the coin toss method, fast win or fast loss, it would be easy to say the players are stupid but I dont think thats the case, I think there is a collective contempt for AV in its current form, everything interesting has been drained from it over the years seemingly with the intention of making it a disposable coin toss game, EU players now play it with this same resignation as the devs that did this.
It change nothig in my point: you can't adapt because you don't want it.


I have a question about this though. Is it really adaptation? Using the very simply example of Rock Paper Scissors...

Could it possibly be a case of EU generally chooses paper, whilst RU picks scissors?

We've obviously gone through some progression, or there is some form of mindset difference, to lead RU to choose scissors when Occam's razor would predict paper, but would that translate into adaptation if the status quo were to change?
If EU found they were losing playing paper into scissors and instead chose rock, regardless of what rock is within the context of AV strategies, would RU switch to paper, or would they continue to play scissors and lose?
18/03/2018 19:20Posted by Ternezia
EU also join for win, but if we lose it's not the end of the world

Oh, cmon. You will do something (prepare, learn, teamplay, adapt etc...) if you want win and join for it. But, I hope you remember, almost every time when I ask «why you whine here about your win/lose ratio and what did you do to increase your chance to win: form 5 man team, learn classes mechanics, lead people on the BG?», I just recive «we join not for win but for fun!» — well, you got stomped, I hope it was fun for you: why you keep whining about your loses if win is not important for you.
We whine if the loses become too much ;) (like now). Otherwise we're fine. And the current situation is not Russians fault, no matter that some people continue to blame you guys. It's just something wrong with the Alliance going on. US players complain about this too.
18/03/2018 19:30Posted by Ellipsìs
It change nothig in my point: you can't adapt because you don't want it.


I have a question about this though. Is it really adaptation? Using the very simply example of Rock Paper Scissors...

Could it possibly be a case of EU generally chooses paper, whilst RU picks scissors?

We've obviously gone through some progression, or there is some form of mindset difference, to lead RU to choose scissors when Occam's razor would predict paper, but would that translate into adaptation if the status quo were to change?
If EU found they were losing playing paper into scissors and instead chose rock, regardless of what rock is within the context of AV strategies, would RU switch to paper, or would they continue to play scissors and lose?

AV is Rock Paper Scissors in every moment. And yes, it's adaptation. If you run with your Scissors and see how your enemy turns into Rock (gather up for defence for example) — turn yourself into the Paper. Don't try to kill the boss under defence or fight with defence if you have not enough damage. Next, when your enemy turns into Scissors, turn yourself into Rock...

The reason why they lose all the time, just because they try the same tactic every time: they wiped on the Galv by Horde defence, for example and then they try kill him or pass him again... And again...

And we saw this adaptation in old AV when people change tactic with every new attack when you have a lot of tools how to support your tactic with summoning NPCs forces. Blizzard simplifies AV and made idiots even more stupid due to this.
Personally i find it quite amazing how many people lack the intelligence to grasp that its better to defend towers and the graveyard instead of afking near the boss.

At the same time im amazed how stupid horde are usually in this bg. They can easily win if they stealth and recap towers (because alliance almost never defends them) but they just whine in the bg chat instead.

Its about 1 in 100 alliance that can understand that its better not to afk in the room near the boss and go defend bases etc instead.

And its about 1/10000 horde stealthers who do their work.

Its a sad number, really. Ive been ninjaing back both towers as a invis mage while every alliance guy stood in the boss room afking instead of defending the towers.

We won that bg barely thanks to me.
AV is Rock Paper Scissors in every moment. And yes, it's adaptation. If you run with your Scissors and see how your enemy turns into Rock (gather up for defence for example) — turn yourself to the Paper. Don't try to kill the boss under defence or fight with defence if you have not enough damage. Next, when your enemy turns into Scissors, turn yourself into Rock...


Once in a blue moon you may get a team that will adapt and co operate, but its very rare as a large percentage of a PUG team really dont care, they will just do what they always did as a fast loss is preferable to *possible* slow win, people just dont care about AV as it is now.

I used to play Ashran a lot, when you would first enter your faction would be in a mess(as if it were not a mess players would not have left and let you in) this gave a lot of people the impression that Ashran was bad and you always lose because whenever they got in the team was losing, but if you stayed in for an hour or so all the people who were defeatists and "let them win" types would rage quit and those who stayed were more resilient.
These people that remained would be tired of the situation and be prepared to accept a leader, and an experienced player would appear step up and lead, and after a little while a beautiful thing would happen, you would be left with a resilient and calm team who would follow this leader and you would start to win, and would carry on winning for a very long time.

Unfortunately a game of AV now doesnt last long enough for this to happen.

Bilizzard simplify AV and made idiots even more stupid due to this.


Exactly, one of the only reasons I want to play "classic" is to play old AV again.
AV still suffers from the curse of TBC, when Arenas first where introduced - when a series of good and applied tactics which were used towards winning for -your faction-, changed to the mindset of "honor pr. hour" grinding (as everything was about the Arena gear).

So all of the well run tactics, where changed with this one "RUUUUUUSH". The best BG in the entire game (which is still has the potential of being, if people just...well...stopped being such tools), turned into a race. The factions completely ignoring each other and bypassing each other midfield, making into a PvE race - who can kill the bosses fastest.

Now, nearly a decade later - this "tactic" is used to a surprising degree, in spite of gear having a massivly reduced impact on instanced PvP. In short, you need to win and play properly to get the max out of it (heck, you might have some fun doing it) - but no, most just rush still. However, everytime the zerg faces a team that applies -ANY- sort of tactics outside "zerg rush" - the rushers gets crushed. Its like players for the most part just run on autopilot, not able to think for themselves or act and react to what the enemies are doing.

I really wish they would amp up this particular BG again. Saving it can only be done by forcing people to work together again to overcome it (and ofc, for a time - ramp up the rewards for winning something crazy - seeminly the only thing that motivates people to fight these days). Make NPC guards dangerous again, and upgraded ones REALLY dangerous. Get our Ram/Wolf riders back, get our bombers back, make this BG a battle of tactics and timing.

Im sad to see that so few play AV nowdays - as its really the only BG that doesnt feel arcady and oversimplified. Yes it has some PvE objectives in it, but if you have to get through players to achieve it, its god damd PvP too.

Make AV great again! And with the upcoming new armor sets for alliance and horde, its almost like we're getting back to the roots of this game. Horde being crude and spikey, alliance golden and gleamy - unit cohesion, identifying with your "side" - armies of "uniformed" warriors clashing togethe.

Here's for hoping!
Reminder that in the year 2018 blizzard still can't be arsed to implement tower/bunker timers in the stock ui and that we still to install half-arsed third party mods to make the game playable

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