the price of honor

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16/04/2018 18:12Posted by Durlan
the fleeting heading for Silithus to squander the Horde's mining operations, says otherwise.

Excerpt says Feralas, so Seething Shore
That is exactly why both the Scourge and the Forsaken are so superior. They are freed from the shackles of mortality, that includes everything from emtions to morale.

That's the mortal races curses and flaws. Their consciousness.
I have great respect for the likes of Varok Saurfang and Garrosh Hellscream. Supreme warriors and masterful tacticians at war.
Their places are as generals, leading the massive Horde War-machine.

While Sylvanas and the Forsakens tactics are more akin to the CIA in comparison.
They work best in the shadows, leading covert operations and taking on the hardest and more "dishonorable" tasks that would not have public support.

Even the Twilight's Hammer were successful in covert operations that were considered dishonorable. Many of the higher up members held heavy titles within the Horde and the Alliance, making them outright traitors to their own people. But they had no problem with that, because their faith was so strong that it worked as a thought stronger than any other.

These are the keys to success when it comes to war and covert operations.
16/04/2018 17:55Posted by Huopoh
16/04/2018 17:30Posted by Unge
She literally still says "What is certain is that Teldrassil and its Night Elves pose a clear threat to the peace and safety of the Horde on Kalimdor.“

Thought you were referencing the whole Kalimdor for Horde Ek for Alliance bit, my bad.
Still, the nelves have never attacked the Horde so thats a pretty cheap excuse

16/04/2018 17:30Posted by Unge
Also Taurajo civilians still die? No matter what effort (which is minimal, he says he ‘ordered it’ but didn’t bother to care enough to follow through) innocents were brutally murdered.

The point was that Alliance makes a concentrated effort to spare civilians while the Horde makes a concentrated effort to kill them.
And he literally left a hole in his ranks to let the civilians escape, he followed through. Brutally murdering? The npc:s in the quest (which I believe you are talking about) stayed to fight.


Except in Taurajo they didn’t make an effort. Horde ghosts tell us that they were surrounded. So yeah I would say brutally murdering is applicable here.

One civilian stayed to fight in order to cover the escape for others. Something that shouldn’t have happened if there was a gap.

Unless you can give me a quote to prove it, Horde doesn’t make an effort to kill them, is just indifferent in these situations.
16/04/2018 12:02Posted by Baulgir
14/04/2018 23:43Posted by Malighos
RANT START
The entire Scenario from the Horde side disgusts me. We are forced to do the Lich Queen's job, with no way of disagreeing. I hate it, I wish we could have joined Saurfang and die / get captured, than do all that bull!@#$. And the fact that Baine seems so happy to use blight, even though it kills his own troops is beyond ludicrous. I spit on her future grave, may she find no rest.
RANT END

Sylvanas's Horde (I refuse to associate my character with that thing) is pretty much like the Japanese and Germany during world war. They are efficient and hard to kill, but they have no honour. They torture just cuz it's fun. They would rather destroy everything so no one wins, than retreat and rebuild. It's efficient, but it's disgusting.


Because you think that world war 2 was a war of honour even from the allied side. I mean the West front was not about as crual as the east one and we still had entire town burning beneath bomb like Dresden where people were civilians died by tenth of thousands
On the east side it is even worse because rape and massacre where authorized from both sides

A war is never clean is not clashing your chilvary dream against one another.
Such thing is the vision of King Richard lionheart and other character which end half of there reign imprisonned such as Saurfang when the enemy is taking land and killing people


First of all this is a fictional world not real world. Second of all if there was no honour, no "agreement" our world would be a nuclear holocaust by now.

Now back onto topic. The problem I have isn't that it's dishonourable to use blight per say, but that it is dishonourable to use it against your own people. She was planning to blow that !@#$hole up anyway so why not %^-*in wait for your troops to go back (since civilians were already evacuated) before starting to blight everything. That's what bothers me. She !@#$s on the core concept of "Thrall's" horde, on the core concept of the orcs as a race. And by extension it feels like Blizzard %^-*s on all orc players as well, by forcing us to do this !@#$.

And saying there is no merit in Honour is retarded. If you experiment and intentionally kill civilians you should not be surprised when your enemy does the same %^-*. While on the other hand you can also have a non-speaking agreement for certain "combat rules", like (since you wanted to bring ww2 so much) we have today. Why dafaq do you think we don't gas people in combat today.

16/04/2018 17:09Posted by Tyrlak
16/04/2018 16:56Posted by Lswindrunner
Don't like it, roll Alliance. Problem solved.


That's what I've been suggesting for a time, even before the scenario came out.
Why are people who despise the Horde so much still play it? I mean... why?


First of all I don't despise Thrall's and Garrosh's (Cata) Horde. That's the Horde I signed up to play when I first started this game. I despise this shadow of it's former self that it has become. This maggot of a "Horde" that it's just hate and corruption. Second of all if this !@#$ is the narrative they wanna force down our throats I will most likely roll an Alliance fat Human since they look awesome when they are available.

16/04/2018 17:12Posted by Unge


Destroying Undercity -> Kill Alliance soldiers -> Weaken Alliance -> Puts Alliance in weaker position to attack Kalimdor. Nice little explanation for you clearly showing it to make senese. Just because you can't comprehend something doesn't mean its illogical....


It's not like she also wasted a bunch of Horde resources with this %^-*, making her defence of Kalimdor weaker in the process as well. Only Alliance lost soldiers here. Sure. Good logic mate.
16/04/2018 17:22Posted by Keydiam
16/04/2018 17:09Posted by Tyrlak
That's what I've been suggesting for a time


Sounds like the General-forum, "Oh you dislike this change? Then stop playing WoW."


Sounds like "you want to support an orc who gave up his honour to preserve his honor, and thus is both a hypocrite AND a traitor? You'll fit well with the Alliance."

Vol'jin said having anything to do with the Alliance is the most dishonourable thing he coudl think of, and he was warchief. I doubt Sylvanas made a rule about what is the most dishonourable thing to do so it is her predecessor's ideas we go by. Saurfang is a hypocrite, a traitor and a dishonourable wreck of a person.

Sylvanas is doing everything in her power to preserve the Horde against the Alliance aggressors. She's the best thing that could have happened to the Horde and I'm proud to be a part of that Horde. Sylvanas' Horde.
16/04/2018 17:09Posted by Tyrlak
16/04/2018 16:56Posted by Lswindrunner
Don't like it, roll Alliance. Problem solved.


That's what I've been suggesting for a time, even before the scenario came out.
Why are people who despise the Horde so much still play it? I mean... why?


Because they're never prepared to put their money or loyalty where their mouth is.
16/04/2018 18:53Posted by Tyrlak
16/04/2018 17:22Posted by Keydiam
...

Sounds like the General-forum, "Oh you dislike this change? Then stop playing WoW."


Sounds like "you want to support an orc who gave up his honour to preserve his honor, and thus is both a hypocrite AND a traitor? You'll fit well with the Alliance."

Vol'jin said having anything to do with the Alliance is the most dishonourable thing he coudl think of, and he was warchief. I doubt Sylvanas made a rule about what is the most dishonourable thing to do so it is her predecessor's ideas we go by. Saurfang is a hypocrite, a traitor and a dishonourable wreck of a person.

Sylvanas is doing everything in her power to preserve the Horde against the Alliance aggressors. She's the best thing that could have happened to the Horde and I'm proud to be a part of that Horde. Sylvanas' Horde.


Vol'jin was an Alliance pet and had his nose brown from how much he kissed their !@#.

16/04/2018 18:59Posted by Lswindrunner
16/04/2018 17:09Posted by Tyrlak
...

That's what I've been suggesting for a time, even before the scenario came out.
Why are people who despise the Horde so much still play it? I mean... why?


Because they're never prepared to put their money or loyalty where their mouth is.


Yes I dare complain about the direction of the faction that I started playing because I care about it. I don't hate "The Horde", the one Thrall made with Vol'jin and Cairne. I hate this $%^-show that has become now that it's run by a corpse who doesn't give a *!@# about anyone but herself. But obviously, you are the same as vol'jin, only your nose is in Sylvanas's $%^ not the Alliance.
16/04/2018 17:32Posted by Aureius
They left the Alliance twisting in the wind. You don't need to attack someone for them to seek retribution for harm wrought to them. The Horde are well aware of it.


How did they do them wrong? They sounded a retreat and notified the Alliance because the Horde were suffering a heavy onslaught from the Legion (incluiding 3 Legion ships) while the Alliance were messing around, Varian have a verbal fight with Guldan instead of finishing the assault. This hardly justifies a reason to surprise attack the Horde and is just petty.

16/04/2018 17:32Posted by Aureius
Because no one brings it up as a reason. Sylvanas never says she's retaliating for Stormheim, she's doing it for Azerite. Meanwhile the Alliance don't acknowledge it either, they're doing it because Sylvanas is attacking them based on Azerite. Not every action necessitates war, that's just how it is.


And shes gathering Azerite to win the war against the Alliance... As they were the ones who started the fighting again. Saying battles in a war are all independent and have no effect on the motivations of each individual following battle is foolish.

16/04/2018 17:32Posted by Aureius
Yes, the Alliance player does that, just like the Horde player goes around killing SI:7 who aren't hurting the Goblins. Point is neither side is seen to be doing anything until players show up and there's no canon for who does it first.


It's clear to see that the Horde are there first though? The Horde arrive with their orders being to establish mining operations. The Alliance turn up with their orders to obtain the Azerite 'by any means necessary', with the player immediately attacking miners (not even soldiers). You're clearly biasly blinded if you can't see the Alliance are the baddies here.

16/04/2018 17:32Posted by Aureius
Illogical things can be explained using logic if your logic is faulty. No perfect logic exists. So yes, the illogical can be made to be seen as logical. From my point of view that's you trying to explain Sylvanas. Your logic is lacking.


http://www.dictionary.com/browse/illogical

Definition of illogical -> 'not logical'. You're literally arguing against English language here.
16/04/2018 18:52Posted by Malighos
It's not like she also wasted a bunch of Horde resources with this %^-*, making her defence of Kalimdor weaker in the process as well. Only Alliance lost soldiers here. Sure. Good logic mate.


So what she should've evacuated Undercity and handed the keys over? From what we know of the Burning of Teldrassil and Battle for Undercity the Alliance has clearly lost the most. Therefore putting Horde in better position.
16/04/2018 19:15Posted by Unge
16/04/2018 18:52Posted by Malighos
It's not like she also wasted a bunch of Horde resources with this %^-*, making her defence of Kalimdor weaker in the process as well. Only Alliance lost soldiers here. Sure. Good logic mate.


So what she should've evacuated Undercity and handed the keys over? From what we know of the Burning of Teldrassil and Battle for Undercity the Alliance has clearly lost the most. Therefore putting Horde in better position.


She should not have burned down Teldrassil to escalate this stupid war.
And yes, she could have evacuated UC before burning / during that mission teldrassil, and then destroy UC. That way she would not !@#$in use Blight on her own people and we would not lose the bad %^- mofo Saurfang. She could still try to bait them inside to kill some of them and then blow herself up and get us rid of this nuisance.
How did they do them wrong? They sounded a retreat and notified the Alliance because the Horde were suffering a heavy onslaught from the Legion (incluiding 3 Legion ships) while the Alliance were messing around, Varian have a verbal fight with Guldan instead of finishing the assault. This hardly justifies a reason to surprise attack the Horde and is just petty.

And shes gathering Azerite to win the war against the Alliance... As they were the ones who started the fighting again. Saying battles in a war are all independent and have no effect on the motivations of each individual following battle is foolish.

It's clear to see that the Horde are there first though? The Horde arrive with their orders being to establish mining operations. The Alliance turn up with their orders to obtain the Azerite 'by any means necessary', with the player immediately attacking miners (not even soldiers). You're clearly biasly blinded if you can't see the Alliance are the baddies here.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/illogical

Definition of illogical -> 'not logical'. You're literally arguing against English language here.


They retreated, leaving the Alliance alone and without the support their position required after saying they would hold the ridge. Plenty reason for the Alliance to hate them.

No, Azerite is what starts the war, Sylvanas wants it for herself and wishes to deny it to the Alliance.

The Goblins are there, but so are SI:7. Neither of these factions is fighting. Only when player characters show up do things get bloody, and there's no established order for that happening. The Horde are the ones digging up the dangerous mineral around the giant daemon sword in a territory that doesn't belong to them, so no, the Alliance aren't obviously "the baddies."

I'm not saying illogical things are logical, I'm saying using faulty logical illogical things can be made to seem logical. Are you sure you're not the one who needs to brush up on your English?
16/04/2018 19:19Posted by Malighos
She should not have burned down Teldrassil to escalate this stupid war.
And yes, she could have evacuated UC before burning / during that mission teldrassil, and then destroy UC. That way she would not !@#$in use Blight on her own people and we would not lose the bad %^- mofo Saurfang. She could still try to bait them inside to kill some of them and then blow herself up and get us rid of this nuisance.


So how should she have reacted to Alliance attacking her Azerite mining operations oh so wise one? Ignore it happened? Hit a little outpost of Alliance for retaliation. She's here to win, hardly needs to be apologetic for that.

She used Blight on soldiers that were effectively in Alliance hands. There was no way they were gonna be rescued considering the Horde were losing ground. Arguably she just put them out of the misery of Alliance capture/torture.

Can't tell are you RPing hard or do you actually think Saurfang is a 'bad %^- mofo'? Literally the main reason he's so popular is cause he would be OP against Ally players and is used as a joke as much as he is for lore purposes.
16/04/2018 19:27Posted by Aureius
They retreated, leaving the Alliance alone and without the support their position required after saying they would hold the ridge. Plenty reason for the Alliance to hate them.


Almost like they gave the Alliance a signal they were retreating...? Horde were suffering while Alliance was messing around, not that hard to see in scenario.

16/04/2018 19:27Posted by Aureius
No, Azerite is what starts the war, Sylvanas wants it for herself and wishes to deny it to the Alliance.


At what point did she deny the Alliance it? At what point did they attempt diplomatic approach. The silly boy king just decided he wanted this unknown substance because 'they have it'. Azerite is a means to an end for Sylvanas, clear to see that.

16/04/2018 19:27Posted by Aureius
The Goblins are there, but so are SI:7. Neither of these factions is fighting. Only when player characters show up do things get bloody, and there's no established order for that happening. The Horde are the ones digging up the dangerous mineral around the giant daemon sword in a territory that doesn't belong to them, so no, the Alliance aren't obviously "the baddies."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQGNcE4m3IY&

Horde are there first^

Alliance show up with only spies in order to sabotage and gather intel 'at any cost' as the quest shows (while also ordering to attack and steal'). Horde arrives to protect mining operations. Prior to players arriving Alliance are the only ones who arrive primarily with a military presence. Horde have miners... not soldiers.

Area doesn't belong to anyone... Then Horde claims it. Simple as. Alliance trespass on the mining areas.
16/04/2018 19:30Posted by Unge
16/04/2018 19:19Posted by Malighos
She should not have burned down Teldrassil to escalate this stupid war.
And yes, she could have evacuated UC before burning / during that mission teldrassil, and then destroy UC. That way she would not !@#$in use Blight on her own people and we would not lose the bad %^- mofo Saurfang. She could still try to bait them inside to kill some of them and then blow herself up and get us rid of this nuisance.


So how should she have reacted to Alliance attacking her Azerite mining operations oh so wise one? Ignore it happened? Hit a little outpost of Alliance for retaliation. She's here to win, hardly needs to be apologetic for that.

She used Blight on soldiers that were effectively in Alliance hands. There was no way they were gonna be rescued considering the Horde were losing ground. Arguably she just put them out of the misery of Alliance capture/torture.

Can't tell are you RPing hard or do you actually think Saurfang is a 'bad %^- mofo'? Literally the main reason he's so popular is cause he would be OP against Ally players and is used as a joke as much as he is for lore purposes.


Oh there are enemy spies in a facility, spies I sent troops to root out and kill already. Better burn down / bomb one of their capitals! Totally reasonable action! /sarcasm off.

Again you presume a lot of things about being prisoners of war. I think we can see quite clearly based on how Saurfang was treated after he was captured it's not the worst. Sure they might be put to hard work or be given little food, but that's not worst than having your skins melt of your face while your lungs collapse and then be raised as a zombie.
Almost like they gave the Alliance a signal they were retreating...? Horde were suffering while Alliance was messing around, not that hard to see in scenario.

At what point did she deny the Alliance it? At what point did they attempt diplomatic approach. The silly boy king just decided he wanted this unknown substance because 'they have it'. Azerite is a means to an end for Sylvanas, clear to see that.

Horde are there first^

Alliance show up with only spies in order to sabotage and gather intel 'at any cost' as the quest shows (while also ordering to attack and steal'). Horde arrives to protect mining operations. Prior to players arriving Alliance are the only ones who arrive primarily with a military presence. Horde have miners... not soldiers.


The horn is meaningless, because it assumes the Alliance know Horde battle signals, or that the Horde gave them time to fall back in good order. Shouting BYE and running away unexpectedly is still leaving the Alliance in a bad spot.

We see the Horde miners are hostile to the Alliance and Sylvanas was trying to keep the discovery to herself. The Alliance had spies in place, watching the operation and securing some small amount of Azerite but nobody was fighting as far as we know.

The Horde beginning digging first for sure, though it's not their land to dig on. Again the at any cost things happens only once the Alliance player arrives, before hand the Alliance are only monitoring the situation. The Alliance players are told to watch out for Horde aggression before going to Silithus while the Horde players are told to kill any Alliance they see.
16/04/2018 18:53Posted by Tyrlak
Sylvanas is doing everything in her power to preserve the Horde against the Alliance aggressors.


The problem with this attidute is that it is counterproductive. The actions of the Horde are what pushes the Alliance towards aggression and hatred. If the Horde would stay in their territories and start talking with the Alliance many of the problems could have been solved without creating a war. But, because the Horde tries to solve all of its problems with weapons, the Alliance simply has to react in some way.

(Oh, and about Vol'jin: If working with the Alliance is so dishonorable then he probably should have shown some spine before Siege of Orgrimmar...where he basically begs the Alliance to help him and his rebels.)

16/04/2018 19:37Posted by Unge
Alliance are the only ones who arrive primarily with a military presence. Horde have miners... not soldiers.


It's Ashran all over again, only with changed roles. The Horde attacks Alliance forces and archaeologists, because they think that the Alliance MIGHT use an artifact against them. So, really...if anything the Horde shouldn't call the Alliance out on this one, as they did the exact same thing before.
16/04/2018 19:49Posted by Malighos
Oh there are enemy spies in a facility, spies I sent troops to root out and kill already. Better burn down / bomb one of their capitals! Totally reasonable action! /sarcasm off.


Totally side stepped the question, what should she have done?

16/04/2018 19:49Posted by Malighos
Again you presume a lot of things about being prisoners of war. I think we can see quite clearly based on how Saurfang was treated after he was captured it's not the worst. Sure they might be put to hard work or be given little food, but that's not worst than having your skins melt of your face while your lungs collapse and then be raised as a zombie.


'Eye for an Eye' quest - orc kicked blind, troll prisoners on Alpha - used as live target dummies, Jade Forest intro - surrendering soldiers gunned down in water.

Not presuming anything, literal evidence of how they treat them, Saurfang so far being an exception (which considering how much Anduin talks him up and his dad I'm not surprised).
16/04/2018 18:43Posted by Unge
Except in Taurajo they didn’t make an effort. Horde ghosts tell us that they were surrounded. So yeah I would say brutally murdering is applicable here.

So.
The General leading the attack and Baine say that there was an effort to spare innocents, but as one civilian felt like they were surrounded it doesn't matter?
okie dokie
16/04/2018 18:43Posted by Unge
Unless you can give me a quote to prove it, Horde doesn’t make an effort to kill them, is just indifferent in these situations.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Battle_for_Hillsbrad
Farmers and "residents" try to flee to Arathi but are hunted down.
In Silverwind refuge, they were clearly trying to flee based on where the corpses are.
Still, I don't know if indifference is much better
16/04/2018 19:50Posted by Aureius
The horn is meaningless, because it assumes the Alliance know Horde battle signals, or that the Horde gave them time to fall back in good order. Shouting BYE and running away unexpectedly is still leaving the Alliance in a bad spot.


Have you even watched the cinematic.... She sounds the horn then Varian immediately sees they're retreating. Its clear to see the Horde are being far more overwhelmed than the Alliance and Sylvanas keeps shouting for Varian to hurry up, yet instead he waits for each wave and has mild slandering match with Guldan.

16/04/2018 19:50Posted by Aureius
We see the Horde miners are hostile to the Alliance and Sylvanas was trying to keep the discovery to herself. The Alliance had spies in place, watching the operation and securing some small amount of Azerite but nobody was fighting as far as we know.


The Alliance is trespassing, killing and sabotaging all around them and their hostile!!!!! What a surprise.

16/04/2018 19:50Posted by Aureius
The Horde beginning digging first for sure, though it's not their land to dig on. Again the at any cost things happens only once the Alliance player arrives, before hand the Alliance are only monitoring the situation. The Alliance players are told to watch out for Horde aggression before going to Silithus while the Horde players are told to kill any Alliance they see.


They claimed it? Hardly like Alliance were keen on it. No, the 'at any cost' are the Alliance orders, do the quest.

Lol 'watch out for Horde aggression' while attacking, stealing and sabotaging?? Give a source on that. Cause 'It's a Sabotage' and 'Free samples' clearly show Alliance to be aggressors.
16/04/2018 19:55Posted by Unge
'Eye for an Eye' quest - orc kicked blind

You keep bringing this up but conveniently forget how the quest giver literally says that Peake is a monster. If his superiors knew, they would thank the Horde for ending him.
Even the Horde knows that the Alliance doesn't torture prisoners. (In general, of course)

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