Why do people say PvP in Legion is bad

General
16/04/2018 15:41Posted by Pivke
something wrong with your eyes?i recommend a visit at the doctor :)


so let's break this down for you.

- you are Prestige 4 which is nothing this far progressed into Legion and you probably got it through doing PvP world Quests anyways.

- You have barely 3k Honorable kills.

- Your last HK ACM (25k) is from 2008.

So unless you have an 2nd acc with tons of PvP acm's like Dottie here (xD) you don't know much about the subject.
i disagree.
made this character in november and done plenty battlegrounds with it.
enough to stand by my statement.
I wouldn’t say it’s bad in itself... it’s just dull and boring due to class design, templates and the strength of cooldowns.

Damage has never been easier to pull out, healers are kind of on/off : strong during cooldowns and a bit weak without, meaning the game is a lot more cooldown trading centered than before

Prestige turned out to be a lazy system, a basic honor “odometer” with reskinned rewards.

Templates are bad and gear still matters, which was the point of templates, making gear less matters; sure we aren’t in the difference we had in MoP but honor talents are to be farmed and entry level PvP gear is pathetic (870).

On the other I feel like balance isn’t that bad and to my usual ratings (2-2.2) I see a lot of different comps even if I often see the same class (warlock).

So while I wouldn’t call it bad, it’s not really exciting neither and except for the tabard I don’t really feel like queuing arenas... as I am prestige 25 I should be done with random BGs but that’s the only PvP option left
16/04/2018 15:57Posted by Pivke
made this character in november and done plenty battlegrounds with it.


alright bud.

Looks like I have a different understanding of what "plenty" means.

And HK ACM's are account wide and that means that you haven't gotten 25k Honorable Kills in the timespand of 2008 to now.
16/04/2018 15:57Posted by Pivke
i disagree.
made this character in november and done plenty battlegrounds with it.
enough to stand by my statement.


Do you play only feral in BGs?
Because if you do, it might explain your fondness for random BGs in Legion to some extent.

Also, I personally don't hate templates, though that being said, they are a clumsy bandaid system to keep the current state of classes falling apart from the seams.

Do templates make the playing field more even? Sure they do
Are they necessary? Right now I think they are

But
Are they also inelegant? Yes
Do they confuse casual players who aren't familiar with the system? Yes
Does it make character progress less rewarding? Yes

Are templates an interesting mechanic? Hell no

I've always been less interested in character progress so that leads me to not hating them as much as some, but I wouldn't be exactly crying if they were to be deleted, though I will continue to plead Blizz to revert a lot of the pruning they've done for the game, for what it's worth.
I dislike templates and the way PvP have been set up in legion generally because it pretty much entirely gives on world PvP. I don't like that things follow drastically different rules in instanced PvP and in the open world.

I preferred when the gear was the same in every PvP context.

The fact that pve provides better pvp gear than PvP itself doesn't help me love the system one bit.

However it does sort of works, I'm not complaining about the viability of my character in BGs and even in the open world. In world PvP though, fights are horribly one sided one way or the other, and it isn't very satisfying.

I'd just wish for a more elegant and more consistent system.
16/04/2018 16:11Posted by Wwhelp
Do you play only feral in BGs?
Because if you do, it might explain your fondness for random BGs in Legion to some extent.
no, only healer :)
i like to heal flag carrier and people who fight on objective.
16/04/2018 16:20Posted by Salmira
I dislike templates and the way PvP have been set up in legion generally because it pretty much entirely gives on world PvP. I don't like that things follow drastically different rules in instanced PvP and in the open world.

I preferred when the gear was the same in every PvP context.

The fact that pve provides better pvp gear than PvP itself doesn't help me love the system one bit.

However it does sort of works, I'm not complaining about the viability of my character in BGs and even in the open world. In world PvP though, fights are horribly one sided one way or the other, and it isn't very satisfying.

I'd just wish for a more elegant and more consistent system.


i have to agree, i miss duelling, cant really do it anymore, wolrd pvp i dont see it at all apart from the odd guy killing you at HFC while your summoning a mate, bgs i feel are awsome, rbgs pretty good though no guilds seem to play them anymore seems to be pug only . but yes i do miss farming cq points in arenas and being excited for the weapons, but thats feeling wise , gameplay wise pvp seems alright(minus wpvp and duels)
16/04/2018 16:36Posted by Pivke
no, only healer :)
i like to heal flag carrier and people who fight on objective.


Okay.
I'm asking because if you played something like a shadow priest or an arms warrior, you would probably find the whole BG experience much, much less enjoyable.

Thinking more about it, druid in general is pretty well off when it comes to random BGs, even moonkin, though they get dicked by melee like shadow, they at least have an option to disengage from a fight and find friends.
I guess, when speaking on a personal level, enjoyment in BGs correlates with classes who can disengage from combat situations even after they've committed to them to some extent.
Because it was like this in TBC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dc0WrORiHmM

Something like this in Wotlk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeAhK9kNY8c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pKv4wwHQtU

Something like this in Cata:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1JJh_sPLuE

Something like this in MoP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glQAKzqHPnQ

And it's nothing like those now.
My main issue is that in spite of templates, classes (and racials) are still very imbalanced. If I played a fury warrior, aff warlock, frost DK, or a 3-button DH, especially on Horde side, I'd absolutely love PvP in legion, but as a feral I can't really share in on the enjoyment (in BGs anyway).

PvP in WoW has always been suffering from class imbalances, so this is nothing new. The difference is that in the past I was able to at least compensate with gear, namely by choosing stats to focus on, but that is no longer possible. The template system makes stats irrelevant, only the ilvl matters. If the template is unfavorable or doesn't match my playstyle, there isn't anything I can do.

Plus, there is no proper progression anymore. I don't get stronger in PvP. It's like doing PvE without any loot: boring and very one-dimensional. For me, it's the worst state PvP in WoW has ever been in. (My perspective is mostly random BGs.)
16/04/2018 15:40Posted by Wwhelp
16/04/2018 15:37Posted by Dottie
Well, this isn't my only account. If you are going to attack something attack my points not my character.


Your point is that you roll a class, and then proceed not to play that class in PvP.
I don't see anything fun about that, sell me on the idea.

It will stop all the whiners whining when it's down to skill only.
Competitive PvP players have made several comments as to why Legion PvP isn't fun. One thing that is unanimously repeated throughout is just how prevalent damage has become. What talent do you choose? The answer to that is almost always: What deals more damage?

Skill-play is still very much in the game and competitive play is still practiced, but the difference is mainly in how every tool in your kit is now a hammer as opposed to a variety of things.

Outside of competitive PvP, you have nothing to do as a PvP player. The prestige grind is basically like any other prestige system, except your reward is you get to access the 'expanded' toolbox available exclusively for PvP... Games like Overwatch rewards skins, sprays, voice lines etc. Tangible rewards. In WoW you get an achievement you'll only look at once and will be referenced by no one because of its lack of value. Want gear? Why would you ever do PvP for that. Just do the far easier Raid Finder alternative, portals, daily quests - you name it, it's faster, more efficient and arguably more fun to get gear this way than crossing your fingers for an upgrade to drop in a box from random battlegrounds/skirmishes.

Combine this with class balance being more stale than ever (do I deal damage, or do I deal damage?) and you have a complete wasteland of nothing. I've done more PvE than ever before this expansion and while that's not exclusively a bad thing, it's certainly not an expression of a healthy PvP enviroment, either.
16/04/2018 15:22Posted by Dottie
Do you know what I'd love? A complete removal of gear for PvP so that EVERYONE can PvP on a level footing, and I do mean everyone.

100% exactly the same, no matter what level they are exactly the same. They have the same set of skills too, a PvP skillset, usable in PvP only so everyone from level 1 to level 120 (soon) is evenly matched in gear and abilities. One set for Healer and one for Melee or Ranged DPS, no tanks allowed. No distinctions between a Death Knight and an Enhancement Shaman, even the abilities are named the same.

Everyone also is all one colour in a Battleground, Red for Horde and Blue for Alliance with the same set of armour. The only difference will be the Race and that is visual only.

PS World PvP will be the same as it is now. Uneven, overpowered classes and ganking.

Sounds like a terrible idea for an MMO, along with all the other scaling, ilvl scaling crap that came out in this expansion.
16/04/2018 21:18Posted by Dottie
It will stop all the whiners whining when it's down to skill only.


But that's only 1 part of the laundrylist of complaints that people have about Legion's pvp currently, I don't think it's even in the top5 complaints, can't imagine your solution being very effective at "stopping all the whiners" at all.

Templates are a tool for balancing and making skill matter more, look at all the people praising that template balance here..
For people that likes to click his cooldown and see other players die hardly without an effort legion is great, for people that likes outskill their opponents and win because they are better legion is bad
I've only done a little pvp in legion on this character and a monk. From my extremely casual perspective I find legion pvp massively disapointing from what I was originally hoping for.

Class design is undisciplined. Outside of cooldowns you don't seem to be able to do much against a healer that's paying attention, if you're pugging battlegrounds the queue problems (disparity between number of healers, lack of balance of classes etc) can lead to a lot of frankly unnecessarily annoying situations. Also, having some specs clearly balanced around certain legion legendaries is awful, the difference of some mechanics sticks out like a sore thumb.

The focus on 3v3 arena tuning makes disorganised play extremely frustrating. You might be trying to lock down an enemy healer but nobody on your team is even paying enough attention to come help, and with that you can't do anything and your team slowly dies as half your dps waste time trying to kill the enemy tank.

The PvP stat template limits talent choices and efficacy. For instance I can't stack crit on my character so any talents that synchronise with crit have very limited effect.

The honor talents seem to be a wasted opportunity. I was hoping that pvp talents would tune the class more to help with pvp specific tools, such as control effects, but the sad thing is a number of them (at least to me) seem like they should have been PvE talents as they just round out some of the clumsyness there.
You also have to understand that regardless of how good or bad something is (a part of) the wow will always cry and tell everyone that everything is the worst it has ever been. There is literally nothing you won't find a thread about someone complaining about it for.
16/04/2018 15:30Posted by Pivke
templates are a real godsend! a great feature, hopefully to stay in the game for ever.


Yeah, let's remove pvp gear because that's a great idea, who needs customization in an rpg game? Oh yeah, i forgot that it took 2-3 days in WoD to farm out a whole pvp set, that must've been a horrible few days, now let the people farm out honor talents which is much more time consuming because that makes sense...

I don't know what game you are playing but the templates made pvp worse than ever before this expansion.
As told from a fellow rogue,
the most stupid thing in the PvP is the item normalization
Who thought that this idea was good?
One of the worst things is that having your character being normalized because it was hard to fix the ballance....
When i farm items, i want the attribute of the items and all the bonuses to work in pvp as well. The only thing that matter right now is the ilvl. This is beyond stupid
The problem with the normalization is that most classes can burst for 3 mil/sec so you can kill someone within 2 sec... Instead of fixing that or increasing the max hit points of players, they came up with the stupid idea of normalization.
Unfortunately when you enter a BG your character alters to something that blizz wants so its like playing a different char and not your own...

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