Where is the community?

General
Ah, the mandatory "this game is dead" daily post (with a different flavor this time!). At least it used to be weekly before, it seems the clueless people are stepping up their game.

Every tool blizzard has added, such as the dungeon and raid finder, has made it easier for certain types of players who aren't interested in spending one hour on chatting with you about all your problems and issues and socializing just to get in and do game content.

Claiming that the community is dead is nonsense, perhaps it's on the smaller, less populated realms, and only because everyone migrated towards the big ones. Saying the realm forums are "dead" is quite questionable as well, a quick check reveals... :

https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/941876/

Doesn't seem even remotely dead to me. And let's not forget that the NEED of socializing in this game which was here in Vanilla (due to people figuring out what the !@#$ is going on and how to play) isn't here anymore to this extend.

Before making such audacious claims, take a little strolls around Outland, Stormscale, Ravencrest and Argent Dawn (for EU, idk about US). (Especially Agent Dawn, it being a RP realm the community is constantly abuzz with talking about something. People from the RP realm are rather social, overly so perhaps at times).

Bottom line is, just because the game is titled as an MMO doesn't mean that people are obligated to talk to you and socialize - that's a perk which some people enjoy, others play the game for entirely different reasons.

If not being able to socialize and people in game don't talk to you, wait until it's real sunny and nice outside and go out with some friends - it'll fix you right up. Not sure what exactly is the problem with people who look for IRL experience in video games.
Blizzard doesn't make communities the player base does. there are still plenty of things in the game that require groups, but people in the main don't want to talk or socialize in those events , the whole mentality of a large number of the player base is rush rush rush, curse anyone that doesn't keep up or makes a mistake. If I join a random dungeon I always make the effort to say hello, the number of times I get a response from others I can probably count on 1 hand.

in part the random grouping introduced by Blizzard don't do that any favours because generally when you random group its with people from other realms you will likely never see again, but its still down to the player base itself to socialize and build communities.
19/04/2018 18:34Posted by Deunn
and that 70-80% of them became antisocial because of the antisocial options that Blizzard introduced.


Some of us were always antisocial.
20/04/2018 13:28Posted by Frigid
And let's not forget that the NEED of socializing in this game which was here in Vanilla (due to people figuring out what the !@#$ is going on and how to play) isn't here anymore to this extend.


This is total and complete BS, proof is there on private servers. Veterans that played WoW Vanilla when it came out, a lot of them even came from other mmorpg's before WoW (Everquest, Ryzom, Lineage, DAoC ect.) and really do not have any need to fiogure out anything but are still playing WoW Vanilla by the thousands for the old school gameplay experience!

And with dead I personyl mean the chat, the chat in every zone is dead, even on Argus. And don't tell me about high populated realms, my main is Alliance on Silvermoon, still nobody says a thing outside of Trade, where it's all useless spam anyway of guild recruiting and boosting services, and some trade, so I've left that channel on most of my chars anyway and then it just feels like a very lonely single player game!

This is ofcourse when you're not in a guild, but even in a guild, people just do their own thing and besides of mythic stuff don't care about anything else, since they can do everything SOLO!

It's just a fact the community has changed A LOT because of the anti-social tools Blizzard introduced with WotLK expansion! People that still play the old vanilla game can tell you eveything about it, and you can just look on youtube about gameplay and how people socialize because they just love to do it, which was nothing more than normal for every mmorpg out there back in the day.

And no, I'm not wearing my rose-tinted glasses ;)
20/04/2018 13:54Posted by Karzi
19/04/2018 18:34Posted by Deunn
and that 70-80% of them became antisocial because of the antisocial options that Blizzard introduced.


Some of us were always antisocial.


That is true. I started playing in TBC, I had the most horrific experiences with random people being unhelpful rude and generally elitist pricks towards me trying to learn the game. I avoided all group activity in the end from group quests to dungeons.

Classic had far smaller servers so yes getting a bad name for yourself probably did hurt you a lot more back then. I remember the unofficial forums etc where people were name and shamed with screenshots backing up the accusations etc.

However LFD/LFR allows anyone to take part in all of the content the world of warcraft has to offer without someone having the power to say no you're not good enough. This is a positive thing. There are higher levels of raiding, dungeons, battlegrounds and arena that require you to form your own groups. People are welcome to be as elistist as they like in these. They are not, however, great social places to be.

Personally I find most of my social interaction is in raids/M+ activities I do with my guild/friends.
19/04/2018 14:21Posted by Deruyter
Server communities have been dead for a very, very long time. I'm pretty much just holding out for vanilla WoW to get that feeling back.


I remember the dynamics changed a lot in TBC, after 40 man raiding made place for 10/25 man raiding. It sure was a guildkiller back then. But as I remember it that realms with a healthy population still had a decent community at least up until WOTLK.


Towards the end of WOTLK was when they added the dungeon queue system which kind of put an end to getting to know people on your server.

I do totally agree with you though. They way it is now I wouldn't even be able to name any of the guilds on my server if it wasn't for external tools like wowprogress.

In BFA there will be a new system called communities which might help. I'm also looking forward to classic which might be different.
You needed each other in the original game. Now you don't.
20/04/2018 14:05Posted by Punyelf
Personally I find most of my social interaction is in raids/M+ activities I do with my guild/friends.


Yeah, that has been the same for me since vanilla days, not counting the "invite" whispers for pug dungeon groups and whatnot.

Granted, most people have caught up to me in later years with the no talking, personally I don't consider it a bad thing.

20/04/2018 14:57Posted by Naydie
You needed each other in the original game


No you didn't. Not random strangers in any case. It was an option, sure, but in no way mandatory.
Social life die because people make it that, back in the days you were forced to communicate with people, mobs and bosses were too strong to solo them, now you can just 2 click and find group for 30-50 sec to kill boss, there is no reason to social. Now you have group finder, people just join and you can choose with who you wanna play, 950, 960 ilvl, warrior, mage etc. You can make social and find people simillar to you, i have couple friends from this expansion because i was nice and talkative.
if you only play the easiest content in the game which is leveling/lfr raiding or normal/heroic dungeons there is no reason to socialize. maybe try heroic/mythic raiding, mythic+ or some rated pvp and i am sure you will find some other people to play with. :)
I actually have some quite severe social problems that affect my life greatly since I was I was a teen and it's not something I can just switch off even when playing a game online sadly. I'm also quite untrusting of people in general, even more so since I started playing wow and made friends only to have them turn around and completely disappoint me after giving them my trust.

If I couldn't progress in this game without being forced to socialize then I probably would just quit playing it altogether. I never started playing it for a social hub, I started playing cause it was a game that looked fun and I wanted to play it. I didn't even know about the social aspect when I started the game, it's just not something I ever felt I needed in a game. I do enjoy seeing people around me though as opposed to NPC's as it makes the game world seem much more alive.
20/04/2018 13:12Posted by Demtings
I'm actually quite interested in peoples ideas to turn it around


I don't see any way that it will be turned around quickly, but I think blizzard are putting in some effort to helping with this in BfA.

The biggest two that I can see so far would be the communities extension and the integrated voice chat overhaul. The community extension should hypothetically let you join several "guilds" simultaneously, so you could join a guild that could focus on each area of gameplay you like. So you could join a guild for mythic dungeons and another for RP if you like.

The voice chat overhaul *should* remove the burden of typing from communication in a group, though since it's an opt-in system I'm not sure how much it'll be used in queueable content, but I look forward to seeing if this system is used in pug raids and mythic +.

As for other ways to help cultivate community, and hopefully this is also being done in BfA, is to bring back utility and the need for coordination in pugable content. It doesn't need to be too drastic but something as simple as needing to say "I'll get the first interupt" or "I've dispelled this shield".

Beyond that, I think blizzard needs to just be brave with some queueable/group content. Take the scenarios at the end of each zone invasion in legion, now if there was a harder version of that, tuned for coordinated groups, I think that would encourage some people to be more sociable since the rewards will drive them to do it.

They would also need to take a stand against the idea that "I pay for this game therefore I'm entitled to see everything as I want". If you want to grow communities you can't encourage people to be selfish in that way. There needs to be content out there to encourage commaraderie among players that want to see it, and while raiding used to fill this niche I think the current higher-difficulty rewards are just too poor to function.

They would need more spectacular armour sets if they want that to be the incentive, but honestly I think it's time to re-evaluate the raiding model we have in wow. With LFR being as it is, I don't see the need for each raid tier to completely replace the last. If we were to take current raiding tiers, what is the justification for antorus to be the only relevant raid tier? Why is it unreasonable that if you want to do antorus normal, the only/best way to get gear for it would be to say do normal tomb at this point?

I think even if we only expand the current relevant raid tiers by the previous raid tier it will greatly help retention in the playerbase and encourage much more raid pugging. It does also help with the gear inflation issue.

Claiming that the community is dead is nonsense, perhaps it's on the smaller, less populated realms, and only because everyone migrated towards the big ones.

Then it isn't nonsense, but a problem that needs to be adressed, which I did in my OP.

Regarding other remarks in your post: I posted from my personal experience. It is no surprise to me that there are individual cases (like Argent Dawn) that are not alligning with the point I'm trying to make.
Bottom line is, just because the game is titled as an MMO doesn't mean that people are obligated to talk to you and socialize - that's a perk which some people enjoy, others play the game for entirely different reasons.

Multiplayer.
I never claimed people are obligated to talk and socialize. I claimed the game mechanics changed in a way people barely communicate at all anymore. I think saying 'hi' when you're dropped in a group of people is common courtesy. That does not mean I expect people to tell their lifestories. It has always been possible to keep to yourself, but in my view it's more fun in a multiplayer game if you need more players and communication to reach some goals. Korvik gave some great examples in the post above me how this can happen.
If not being able to socialize and people in game don't talk to you, wait until it's real sunny and nice outside and go out with some friends - it'll fix you right up. Not sure what exactly is the problem with people who look for IRL experience in video games.

To quote a great meme: 'Why not both?'. Isn't it fun to talk about the game, in the game with other people who enjoy the game?

I also think it's laughable that you're calling community building or basic communication a 'IRL experience' while you're playing a MMO. To add to this: it isn't the main thing I'm playing games for, but it has always been a great aspect of WoW and other MMO's.
21/04/2018 11:07Posted by Deruyter
Multiplayer.
I never claimed people are obligated to talk and socialize. I claimed the game mechanics changed in a way people barely communicate at all anymore. I think saying 'hi' when you're dropped in a group of people is common courtesy. That does not mean I expect people to tell their lifestories. It has always been possible to keep to yourself, but in my view it's more fun in a multiplayer game if you need more players and communication to reach some goals.


You DO need to communicate with other players do achieve higher level content though. Like that's just a fact. I've never tried mythic but I imagine trying to do it without any sort of communication would be almost impossible. And that's without the finding a guild, arranging who will come, arranging a time part.

And if you aren't trying to make people obligated to socialize then what exactly are you getting at? You pointed out the game is MULTIplayer quite pointedly.

I think WoW is great because I can play solo when I like, or go play with friends when I like. I cannot imagine anything worse than being forced to communicate just to achieve basic things. Especially with how rude a lot of people are now.

And that's how they'd probably have to do it. Force people to communicate. Sort of like how they feel like they have to force people to do content for flying, and look how well that went down.
It's 30% the game and 70% the people. Unfortunately, the generation now is not the same one from 10 years ago. People aren't as social and for the most part when they are it's just meme-ing. As Puny said, you'll probably find people to roll with if you're in a guild or playing with friends, but don't expect to be logging in and have everyone wishing you a good morning in trade chat.
I've always felt that communication in wow was a bit 'forced'. It was usually no more than 'LFM Need tank and healer' or 'Sap X, sheep moon, trap square'. Even in raids it often wasen't much more than that.

But if you found a decent tank or a healer, you had to kind of 'suck up' to them a little if you wanted to get a group together faster the next day.

I generally don't have any interest in the life of a stranger in a game, so this way of getting things to work, always felt a bit awkward to me.

I used to play with some of my friends and my family back then, and being social with them was a natural thing, but the whole 'being social with strangers' just felt like a necessary evil, and im glad a lot of that is gone. Especially since im one of the few left of the 'good old gang' that's still playing.

I've never really played wow for the social aspect, I get enough of that in my day to day life. I play wow because it's a good game, and because it gives me a little break from reality.
21/04/2018 11:47Posted by Bish

You DO need to communicate with other players do achieve higher level content though. Like that's just a fact. I've never tried mythic but I imagine trying to do it without any sort of communication would be almost impossible. And that's without the finding a guild, arranging who will come, arranging a time part.

And if you aren't trying to make people obligated to socialize then what exactly are you getting at? You pointed out the game is MULTIplayer quite pointedly.

I think WoW is great because I can play solo when I like, or go play with friends when I like. I cannot imagine anything worse than being forced to communicate just to achieve basic things. Especially with how rude a lot of people are now.

And that's how they'd probably have to do it. Force people to communicate. Sort of like how they feel like they have to force people to do content for flying, and look how well that went down.


I understand the confusion. I ment it in the way that I don't want to force people communicating on a personal level. Forcing more communication on content would be great though.
20/04/2018 14:57Posted by Naydie
You needed each other in the original game. Now you don't.


Yeah, because cross realm garbage wasn't a thing back then!

Todays wow is literally a 100 times worse of irl, for those who are not friends / or Signifant Others / people you know.

OP. There is only 2 ways that can make a comunnity in this game.

Either you make something that will gather interests from strangers enough you over time form a bond with.

Or blizz completely revamps all of their anti-social BS features from the ground up, and out right either completely rework them or remove them forever!

Even through for some, guilds may be communities. Their experience i have started to degrade over this expansion. And today imo it is more like freaking reading general chat than a actual lively community. Examples.

The guy that wants to vent, but doesn't ever say anything else. The guy that says a very bad joke / or obnoxious stuff. The guy or girl that brings up nothing else than their usual ''So how's everyone?'' ''Evening'' (even when it's early afternoon for some one else) *talks about their BF / GF / what they've being doing recently*. Or the LFM X guy.

THAT, is all their is in a guild. And that is just like freaking general chat!!
If you do a bit of a rough divide there's two kind of WoW players, the try-hards and the casuals. (both terms meant in an endearing way).

If we generalize a bit, for the casual player this game is basically a collection simulator. They like to collect transmogs, rare mounts, watch reputation bars fill up, stuff like that. Everytime a rare mount drops, or they can complete a new transmog they get the shot of dopamine which more or less is one of the biggest drivers for playing video games.

At the other end of the spectrum, the try-hard player plays this game to kill bosses most other people haven't killed yet, push higher in mythic+ / arena, get 99% percentile parses. They get their shot of dopamine when they're on top of the damage meters, get the cutting edge achievement or do a +23 dungeon in time for the first time.

This is basically two different games which co-exist, however both games are called World of Warcraft and are purchased as the same game. For the record, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with either play style, play however you want. Most players are probably somewhere in between the two play styles to some extend.

But since all the things the try hard player does is what requires the most team work and coordination, this is where you for the most part find the community similar to what there was back in Wrath and earlier. Communities still exist in guilds and Discord servers. All though finding one you like might be difficult

When you queue up for a HC dungeon, random BG or LFR and wonder "Why is no one talking??" it's because you chose to queue up for what is essentially the single player experience in WoW.

I suppose realm communities are mostly dead ever since cross-realm became a thing. There's still a bit of it though in the form of guilds competing for the rank 1 spot or auction house players competing for a market.
solo que for arena and single player raid scenarios when

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