Some boss abilities shouldnt hit pets.

Classic Discussion
14/04/2018 19:20Posted by Shogath
14/04/2018 17:28Posted by Tamaliera
The issue is that the Pet is an important part of the hunters DPS, and having the game designed in a way where the hunter has to give up a large part of his or her DPS on several encounters is not in any way fun. Hunters are already bottom of the barrel in terms of DPS, and this makes it even worse.
No, the issue is that some people don't realise that working together as a group means that you can't do everything you can do when solo.

It is as important for a good Hunter to know when to use his pet as it is when to not use his pet. Just like the use of every other ability with every other Class.

Hunter-Pet synergy doesn't always (have to) work together with other people playing the same part your pet normally does.

The problem became a problem when people started to look at the DPS-scoreboard as the Holy Grail.

14/04/2018 17:28Posted by Tamaliera
At least you always need hunters for Tranq shot and certain pulls in raids.
Which illustrates nicely what i mean.

That is why i said "Hunter puts away pet and becomes a Ranger".


Man you just do not get it...its not a skill to know when to use your pet or not... A good design should allow any good hunter to keep his pet alive. There are fights that I always managed to keep my pet alive while others had their pets die asap. Thats good. Not being able to have it more than 30 seconds alive just feels wrong. If you do not play hunter you ll never understand what I mean.
14/04/2018 19:36Posted by Holyvita
A good design should allow any good hunter to keep his pet alive.


well, if you want to talk about technicality of game, the game is full of illogical things like this.

perfect example is debuff limit, tell me how is it good game design to not being able to use certain weapons, because they add useless debuff so it's banned to use them(example, hand of ragnaros, legendary weapon is worst weapon you can use in raids, because it takes debuff slot) ? how is it good game design to not being able to use some SKILLS classes have because of this ?

in my opinion this whole pet thing goes straight in to same category as debuff slots, because in the end of the day, pet is just skill Hunter has, when we are speaking technical point of view.

when we are talking huge change as removing debuff limit on bosses, that's the point when we need to stop and think more carefully.

is this going to be remake / remaster edition ?

or restoration(game as it was, no changes).

this is question blizzard needs to answer before we get more deeply into subjects, such as these.
14/04/2018 19:44Posted by Cai
14/04/2018 19:36Posted by Holyvita
A good design should allow any good hunter to keep his pet alive.


well, if you want to talk about technicality of game, the game is full of illogical things like this.

perfect example is debuff limit, tell me how is it good game design to not being able to use certain weapons, because they add useless debuff so it's banned to use them(example, hand of ragnaros, legendary weapon is worst weapon you can use in raids, because it takes debuff slot) ? how is it good game design to not being able to use some SKILLS classes have because of this ?

in my opinion this whole pet thing goes straight in to same category as debuff slots, because in the end of the day, pet is just skill Hunter has, when we are speaking technical point of view.

when we are talking huge change as removing debuff limit on bosses, that's the point when we need to stop and think more carefully.

is this going to be remake / remaster edition ?

or restoration(game as it was, no changes).

this is question blizzard needs to answer before we get more deeply into subjects, such as these.


To be fair I am personally against any big change as well because that changes the spirit of the game.

What i suggested only affects hunter players in a positive way. Other people wont even notice it :P

And lets be real, authentic vanilla means 1.1 to 1.12 with all the bugs and changes. I bet 90% of the people who say nochanges will come to forums and cry after losing 9 out of 10 AVs from horde cause the backdoor isnt fixed etc.

Vanilla had some good things, for example dungeon loot mattered, proffesions were nice, good gear was rare 40 man raiding, the world was rich with ppl etc. Thats what we love. We dont love all the minor buggy details.
14/04/2018 17:22Posted by Holyvita
14/04/2018 16:25Posted by Gnubbish
...

Youre saying youre a Hunter who doesnt understand your pet enough to dismiss it when needed? Or whats the problem?

If a fight doesnt let you use a pet, then dont use a pet. easy


Maybe the idea of the post wasnt clear. Not using a pet and pet dying is the same To me and 9/10 hunters out there a hunter and his pet are ONE. Thats the same reason we hated lone wolf when it came out as the best dps talent.


If your pet died, its up to you to decide if its worth 10 seconds to resurrect it. Some fights have a gap when you have enough time to res a pet without losing too much DPS, other fights youre better off going alone.

Why do you want to remove this kind of decisionmaking from the game? :S

Hunter is already a braindead DPS class.
14/04/2018 20:28Posted by Gnubbish
14/04/2018 17:22Posted by Holyvita
...

Maybe the idea of the post wasnt clear. Not using a pet and pet dying is the same To me and 9/10 hunters out there a hunter and his pet are ONE. Thats the same reason we hated lone wolf when it came out as the best dps talent.


If your pet died, its up to you to decide if its worth 10 seconds to resurrect it. Some fights have a gap when you have enough time to res a pet without losing too much DPS, other fights youre better off going alone.

Why do you want to remove this kind of decisionmaking from the game? :S

Hunter is already a braindead DPS class.


Maaaannn honestly. You either dont know what you are talking about or you pretend you dont know just to say something thats lame.

First of all its not 10 seconds its 4 with talent...which everybody good enough
should use.

2nd of all in these fights i mentioned you simply cannot rezz cause it will die instantly.

Some1 mentioned to just dismiss pet...actually the best way of thinking would be to get as many seconds of pet dps then let it die or with t3 set let it outside the room.

So yea clearly people talking against my point dont know the game as well as I do. Maybe listen to someone that knows the game more than.
14/04/2018 20:11Posted by Holyvita
What i suggested only affects hunter players in a positive way. Other people wont even notice it :P


let's be honest here though.

why would they introduce THIS, but not removing debuff limit mechanic ?

are you suggesting they should make this "hidden" update and players just wouldn't notice the difference ?

what you're dreaming is pipedream, if you see that not being able to use your ability (pet) as problem, and they fix it, it would be WEIRD if they didn't fix other problem (debuff slots), they are literally the same, both are "poor game design", both problems stops/prevents you from using abilities you would normally be able to use.
14/04/2018 20:54Posted by Cai
14/04/2018 20:11Posted by Holyvita
What i suggested only affects hunter players in a positive way. Other people wont even notice it :P


let's be honest here though.

why would they introduce THIS, but not removing debuff limit mechanic ?

are you suggesting they should make this "hidden" update and players just wouldn't notice the difference ?

what you're dreaming is pipedream, if you see that not being able to use your ability (pet) as problem, and they fix it, it would be WEIRD if they didn't fix other problem (debuff slots), they are literally the same, both are "poor game design", both problems stops/prevents you from using abilities you would normally be able to use.


Of course both are poor game design but with different severity... Its like comparing stealing a bag vs a murder. Both are illegal acts but vastly different.
14/04/2018 14:36Posted by Shogath
<span class="truncated">...</span>

What ranged pets?
Hunters could tame ranged pets in Vanilla.

Edit:

Wind Serpents had some form of electric breath debuff thing and there were a few more ranged options in specific pets.

Simply cus their dps was terrible. Brokentooth (rare tiger) had the highest attackspeed of any pet in the vanilla era, so Hunters camped him. Brokentooth, the 'undead' wolf in duskwood (did shadow dmg, so it was very good in pvp) and zg raptors were goto. Everything else was just mediocre.

Edit; debuff slots limited to 16, was 8 (?) Early on. Also a reason why you dont pick a debuff pet
14/04/2018 20:42Posted by Holyvita
Some1 mentioned to just dismiss pet...actually the best way of thinking would be to get as many seconds of pet dps then let it die or with t3 set let it outside the room.
If you have a solution to your problem then what are you moaning here about ???

14/04/2018 20:42Posted by Holyvita
So yea clearly people talking against my point dont know the game as well as I do. Maybe listen to someone that knows the game more than.
Yeah lol... you clearly are the bees knees in Hunterland.. lol.
14/04/2018 21:31Posted by Exemplis
Simply cus their dps was terrible.
Ah right... DPS.

Sorry... forgot to min-max it.
14/04/2018 21:42Posted by Shogath
14/04/2018 21:31Posted by Exemplis
Simply cus their dps was terrible.
Ah right... DPS.

Sorry... forgot to min-max it.


You can say whatever you want about how vanilla is played for the community and blablabla, but how much DPS classes can put out very much DOES affect which classes get priority for raidslots and not. You never under any circumstance want to bring more hunters than you need for their utility as their DPS is simply garbage once you leave Molten Core.

And yes, I know some guilds wont care. But most do, and you know it.
14/04/2018 19:44Posted by Cai

perfect example is debuff limit, tell me how is it good game design to not being able to use certain weapons, because they add useless debuff so it's banned to use them(example, hand of ragnaros, legendary weapon is worst weapon you can use in raids, because it takes debuff slot) ? how is it good game design to not being able to use some SKILLS classes have because of this ?


If I'm not mistaken, debuff limit was a technical issue, not a design choice.
14/04/2018 21:21Posted by Holyvita
Of course both are poor game design but with different severity... Its like comparing stealing a bag vs a murder. Both are illegal acts but vastly different.


true, but not really answering my question, why would they fix this, but not the other ?

it's like saying they should enforce stealing law so bag's won't get stolen, but screw the murders, those can stay.

14/04/2018 22:39Posted by Leisapra
If I'm not mistaken, debuff limit was a technical issue, not a design choice.


this is relevant... how ? doesn't this mean debuff limit should get even more fixed rather than pet issue, wich was design choice ?

sheesh... like i said, this all is irrelevant depending what choice blizzard is going to make, is it remake, remaster or restoration.
14/04/2018 20:42Posted by Holyvita
14/04/2018 20:28Posted by Gnubbish
...

If your pet died, its up to you to decide if its worth 10 seconds to resurrect it. Some fights have a gap when you have enough time to res a pet without losing too much DPS, other fights youre better off going alone.

Why do you want to remove this kind of decisionmaking from the game? :S

Hunter is already a braindead DPS class.


Maaaannn honestly. You either dont know what you are talking about or you pretend you dont know just to say something thats lame.

First of all its not 10 seconds its 4 with talent...which everybody good enough
should use.

2nd of all in these fights i mentioned you simply cannot rezz cause it will die instantly.

Some1 mentioned to just dismiss pet...actually the best way of thinking would be to get as many seconds of pet dps then let it die or with t3 set let it outside the room.

So yea clearly people talking against my point dont know the game as well as I do. Maybe listen to someone that knows the game more than.


Why is your suggestion that you shouldnt have to deal with those fights that kill pets?

Dont you think that pets dying as a result of alot of AOE effects is a design choice?
14/04/2018 22:14Posted by Tamaliera
You can say whatever you want about how vanilla is played for the community and blablabla, but how much DPS classes can put out very much DOES affect which classes get priority for raidslots and not.
Which fully explains why i don't give a damn, shows that you know that and thus raises the question why you are still trying to sell your endgame bogus to me.

When i play a game i do it to relax, get some story telling going and enjoy adventuring through a Fantasy world with likeminded people. You know... RPG.

14/04/2018 22:14Posted by Tamaliera
You never under any circumstance want to bring more hunters than you need for their utility as their DPS is simply garbage once you leave Molten Core.
Yet it is enough to be a very powerful entity in the world i just mentioned. In Vanilla the Hunters even had some melee abilities that would keep 'em fighting and help them survive in case their pet died. Imagine the power of more hunters in such a world.
14/04/2018 22:14Posted by Tamaliera
And yes, I know some guilds wont care. But most do, and you know it.
What makes you think i give a damn about endgame guilds. Vanilla is about pre-endgame and that is where the Hunter shines... with AND without his pet.

I can jump into any old dungeon, without my pet. Call dirty words at whatever lowlife of a Boss is in there... shoot an arrow up the guard's butt, run outside, feed my pet and have a glorious victory diner with my 5 wives and 24 children!

While all the while you are still outside counting your men and calculating their DPS.... HA!

Now run along and go do some min-maxing before you get DPS-withdraw-syndrome.

Teeheehee ... :D

:P
Honestly this is turning into a forum war so lets just leave it here. All I wanted was to raise an issue since there is a lot of time for classic to come and some minor improvements could lead to a better experience.

I dont get why many people who dont even plan to play hunter in a raid setting care so much about what I proposed. Lets just admit we will never agree.
14/04/2018 23:34Posted by Holyvita
Honestly this is turning into a forum war so lets just leave it here. All I wanted was to raise an issue since there is a lot of time for classic to come and some minor improvements could lead to a better experience.

I dont get why many people who dont even plan to play hunter in a raid setting care so much about what I proposed. Lets just admit we will never agree.
It's just another "But nobody will notice"... and there is no issue.

The experience was already fine and once you learn how to play your Hunter better it will all be even more fine. (just kidding) ;)

Oh and what makes you think people here don't plan on playing a Hunter?
Which fully explains why i don't give a damn, shows that you know that and thus raises the question why you are still trying to sell your endgame bogus to me.

When i play a game i do it to relax, get some story telling going and enjoy adventuring through a Fantasy world with likeminded people. You know... RPG.


But you are a minority, TBH. WoW has become what has become because people considered endgame the "serious bzness", even back then. During vanilla raids started pressuring members to level up, gear up and do their attuments as fast as possible. That influenced how the game evolved.
15/04/2018 00:02Posted by Leisapra
But you are a minority, TBH. WoW has become what has become because people considered endgame the "serious bzness", even back then.
Yeah im sure back then that minority found themselves very important indeed.

And Blizzard noticed how easy it is to cater to the masses by letting them win lots of shiny baubles and so developed a nice and easy to make tredmill for them.

Not to mention not having to update and maintain an entire game because you can just sacrifice that in favor of the last 10 levels of gameplay... which they have started doing from Cataclysm on.

15/04/2018 00:02Posted by Leisapra
During vanilla raids started pressuring members to level up, gear up and do their attuments as fast as possible. That influenced how the game evolved.
Yeah, I think it was more a case of playing on the weaknesses of the dumb masses and leading them by the nose to a place where they give the most profit at the smallest investment. Which happens to be the sameplace where the player gets their shinies with the least amount of time invested.

Even the endgame/raiding scene has been adapted to better cater to the influx of players. I watched some video's by Preach Gaming on starting from scratch on a fresh account and withing a few weeks he was doing mythic 15+ or whatever that crap is called these days.

Ofcourse endgame is the place to be... the rest has been destroyed to make sure people don't hang around in the leveling area's too long.

But you are right... i am part of a minority. Doesn't mean i'm wrong though, just means i don't get caught so easily with a handfull of purple/orange beads :)

I need at least a remake of 60 levels of great MMORPG.
14/04/2018 16:15Posted by Leisapra
but in a raid environment you shouldn't be playing with animals but with real adventurers.


14/04/2018 19:20Posted by Shogath
"Hunter puts away pet and becomes a Ranger".


14/04/2018 19:36Posted by Holyvita
A good design should allow any good hunter to keep his pet alive

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