CPU - GPU pairing, balance, budget

General
06/05/2018 13:43Posted by Ranndy
So you are saying 20-25% is nothing?! Amazing

20-25% in what? where are you getting these numbers from? the 8400 is about 50% more powerful than the 8100 in applications that scale extremely well, like the synthetic benchmark cinebench, and barely faster at all in applications that don't scale with it's extra cores, like wow.

and yes, you can calculate like that with clock speeds and it'll give you a result that is close to reality since both processors are using the same architecture.

here you can see the single-threaded performance of various models of ryzen, ryzen+, kaby lake and coffee lake when they're all running at 2.8ghz. the 8350k is identical to the 8100 except it's clocked higher and is unlocked (but here they're all running at 2.8ghz like i said). here you can see that the i3 and i5 (and i7) all get the same score.
https://cdn.sweclockers.com/artikel/diagram/14666?key=fdba3ca1a8d0f4696faf8649d9c8cfd4

and here is the same test but with the multi-threaded test, which is the dream scenario in terms of scaling. here the 8400 is 50% faster than the 8350k, which makes sense since it has 50% more cores and threads.
https://cdn.sweclockers.com/artikel/diagram/14669?key=f6a59c97a8e1c2b657a4e46a5137f098
Honestly, getting a CPU worse than the i5 series will make you want to throw it out of the window these days. On paper, the i3 has higher clock speed, but turbospeed isn't supported until i5, so even single threaded performance (read most of WoW) will be significantly better on the i5.

You can live with the 2 GB VRAM, neither of the 1050 cards are good by today's standards, but it's safe to say that you will be able to play WoW on them for a couple of years to come. WoW is really light on GPU and if you at some point notice that it's getting GPU bound (good luck with that, maybe with no addons solo questing somewhere), just disable shadows for the most part.

Either way, prefer better CPU over better GPU for WoW, and make sure to get an SSD. I can't stress enough how important an SSD is these days. This recommendation is pretty much ubiquitous for the Blizzard games you mentioned. Overwatch and D3 do favor GPUs more.
Dear god, the forum has been invaded by people who think an I3, I5 and I7 offers the same performance @ the same clockspeed. I give up.
06/05/2018 14:47Posted by Qooning
Honestly, getting a CPU worse than the i5 series will make you want to throw it out of the window these days. On paper, the i3 has higher clock speed, but turbospeed isn't supported until i5, so even single threaded performance (read most of WoW) will be significantly better on the i5.

not true. 8400 has a base clock of 2.8 with a max boost of 4, whereas the 8100 has a base of 3.6. realistically we'll be getting like 3.8ghz under load while playing wow on the 8400. that is not significantly better, it's 5% better.

06/05/2018 14:48Posted by Ranndy
Dear god, the forum has been invaded by people who think an I3, I5 and I7 offers the same performance @ the same clockspeed. I give up.

adorable, either you failed to understand or you're trying to twist my words. i've said that they offer basically the same performance at the same clock speed when the extra cores and threads do not matter. obviously it's completely different when they do matter.
06/05/2018 14:47Posted by Qooning
Honestly, getting a CPU worse than the i5 series will make you want to throw it out of the window these days. On paper, the i3 has higher clock speed, but turbospeed isn't supported until i5, so even single threaded performance (read most of WoW) will be significantly better on the i5.

not true. 8400 has a base clock of 2.8 with a max boost of 4, whereas the 8100 has a base of 3.6. realistically we'll be getting like 3.8ghz under load while playing wow on the 8400. that is not significantly better, it's 5% better.


I'm really not interested in starting a forum war on CPUs. But it's a 5% clock speed and 50% increased cache size (L1, L2 AND L3), which will translate to huge performance difference. Add to that the fact that i3 don't support hyperthreading and the extra 2 cores for doing whatever else, like using Chrome, and I can't see how you can recommend anyone to get an i3 chip in 2018.
it's not a huge performance increase. it's a single-digit performance increase whenever you're not gpu bound and somehow people are valuing that over a 20% more powerful graphics card in a gaming computer, which is especially bewildering since the graphics cards are entry-level.

the i5 doesn't have HT either, the i3 has 4 cores without HT and the i5 has 6 cores without HT. 6 cores with HT is an i7.

you don't think a quad core can handle playing wow and browsing the internet at the same time? a year ago that was an i5 and i bet people would've been recommending the i5 7600k over a more expensive part when combined with entry-level graphics cards in a computer meant for playing wow. i'm sitting here with a 4c/8t i7 6700k and even that is overkill for wow. my cpu load is at ~35% in dalaran while i'm also browsing the internet, listening to music and what have you.
06/05/2018 10:40Posted by Kokufuu
I'm building my very first budget PC and need some final advice.
Everything is set, only need to decide about the CPU and GPU pairing.
Option 1:
i3 8100 with GTX 1050 Ti 4GB
Option 2:
i5 8400 with GTX 1050 2GB
I'm on a budget so better CPU or GPU is not an option not even the 2 better ones together.
I'm not a heavy gamer, it will be used only for WoW, HotS and HS.
Thank you for the advice in advance and let me know if you need further info.


I'd suggest buying used or maybe buy everything but the GPU new and buy a used 970 or something. Where I live you can get a used 970 for about €120-150 while a new 1050 TI will set you back about €220. The 970 is vastly superior to the 1050 TI.

Buy the best CPU you can get and buy a used 970 is my advice.
i made you 2 kinds of builds i dont know what sort of money you wanna use but im guessing under £1000

this is a ryzen build its gonna keep you alive for a few years no problem
https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/list/mtL68Y

this is a intel build same idea :)
https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/list/sgZkXP

both are budget friendly

i also added the build i would do if money was at max £1600
https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/list/NYbF8Y
Well I am running 1080p on a old 2120 i3 and a 1050ti and it can run on max settings at 30 fps... I think selecting 7 would hit the 60fps.

Just goes to show what a better gfx card does I think the 1050ti is about 30/40% faster that tge standard 1050 (Don't quote me been awhile since I bought it and checked the numbers lol)... And also you get 4gb of memory.

How ever like a previous guy said if u can pick up a 2nd hand 970 it's faster than the 1050ti but I'd be wary buying a used ffs card in the current climate die to it could have been used for mining and had it's !@#$ worked off.

The 1050 and 1050ti was only 30 quid difference when I bought it over a year ago is they a huge difference now?

What's your budget?
06/05/2018 14:54Posted by Retier
06/05/2018 14:47Posted by Qooning
Honestly, getting a CPU worse than the i5 series will make you want to throw it out of the window these days. On paper, the i3 has higher clock speed, but turbospeed isn't supported until i5, so even single threaded performance (read most of WoW) will be significantly better on the i5.

not true. 8400 has a base clock of 2.8 with a max boost of 4, whereas the 8100 has a base of 3.6. realistically we'll be getting like 3.8ghz under load while playing wow on the 8400. that is not significantly better, it's 5% better.

06/05/2018 14:48Posted by Ranndy
Dear god, the forum has been invaded by people who think an I3, I5 and I7 offers the same performance @ the same clockspeed. I give up.

adorable, either you failed to understand or you're trying to twist my words. i've said that they offer basically the same performance at the same clock speed when the extra cores and threads do not matter. obviously it's completely different when they do matter.


Well, you said both tbh. You claim you can compare Ghz to Ghz on an i3 and an i5, and that's wrong. The i5 has a higher ipc.

Then you find a test that shows the opposite, and keep claiming an I3 is just as fast as an i5 in lightly threaded applications. That's also wrong
06/05/2018 18:40Posted by Ranndy
06/05/2018 14:54Posted by Retier
...
not true. 8400 has a base clock of 2.8 with a max boost of 4, whereas the 8100 has a base of 3.6. realistically we'll be getting like 3.8ghz under load while playing wow on the 8400. that is not significantly better, it's 5% better.

...
adorable, either you failed to understand or you're trying to twist my words. i've said that they offer basically the same performance at the same clock speed when the extra cores and threads do not matter. obviously it's completely different when they do matter.


Well, you said both tbh. You claim you can compare Ghz to Ghz on an i3 and an i5, and that's wrong. The i5 has a higher ipc.

Then you find a test that shows the opposite, and keep claiming an I3 is just as fast as an i5 in lightly threaded applications. That's also wrong

no i didn't say both, and no the test doesn't show the opposite. 122 is not more than 122. the i5 does not perform better per core at the same clock speed, or at least not enough for it to be measurable in this test. if the difference isn't even enough to get 1 more point then it's not enough to be worth mentioning.
https://cdn.sweclockers.com/artikel/diagram/14666?key=fdba3ca1a8d0f4696faf8649d9c8cfd4
One person links source to his statements, the other calls everyone idiots. Hmm..
06/05/2018 19:22Posted by Noxylly
One person links source to his statements, the other calls everyone idiots. Hmm..

i find this frustrating because i know people are just trying to help but they end up spreading misinformation. it's true that wow is very demanding of the cpu and i get why people recommend a more expensive cpu based on that, but the end result is that the person seeking help ends up making sacrifices on the rest of the build for something that doesn't really help with what they wanted to pay more for.

if someone is curious about how to effectively battle wow's crappy performance:
get an unlocked intel cpu, overclock the snot out of it and pair it with some really fast ram.
CPU is the best thing to get right first.

It's FAR easier to upgrade the graphics card, and if you're only planning to run at 1080p then a 1050 is more than enough.

The game uses an ancient engine, so I imagine it rather leans on the CPU side of things, especially being an MMO not a fast paced game with all graphics and not much players and lots of data to process.
Thanks for all feedback! Really appreciate it...

Other parts of the planned build are:
G.Skill Ripjaw V 2400MHz DDR4 CL15 (2X4GB)
ASRock H370M Pro4
250GB Crucial SSD 2.5" SATA MX500
Corsair CX450M 450W modular
Cooler Master MasterBox Q300L

edit: forgot cooler and fans
Be Quiet! Pure Rock Slim
Deepcool XFAN 120L/B LED (4pcs)
06/05/2018 20:08Posted by Kokufuu
Thanks for all feedback! Really appreciate it...

Other parts of the planned build are:
G.Skill Ripjaw V 2400MHz DDR4 CL15 (2X4GB)
ASRock H370M Pro4
250GB Crucial SSD 2.5" SATA MX500
Corsair CX450M 450W modular
Cooler Master MasterBox Q300L Micro-ATX

looks fine
Currently with an i5 processor my fan is going crazy when playing WoW, so no doubt the game puts quite the pressure on it.

GeForce 920M graphics, and can run fine at 5 setting in almost all circumstances.

To add, it's a Dell laptop, kind looked for something decent at the time( couple of years ago) so i wouldn't have to change hardware...much, only added 256 gig SSD.

But as far as the BfA requirements go, this laptop will do fine. If anything ill seek some upgrades although laptops have their limitations.
Is there really any need for a CPU above i5, in terms of performance when it comes to WoW BfA?

P.S. Unrelated, but after installing BfA alpha, my live WoW began crashing, so had to uninstall. Not sure why, i suspect it was due to the fact that last install took the last of my 250 gigs on SSD ;o
06/05/2018 20:08Posted by Kokufuu
Thanks for all feedback! Really appreciate it...

Other parts of the planned build are:
G.Skill Ripjaw V 2400MHz DDR4 CL15 (2X4GB)
ASRock H370M Pro4
250GB Crucial SSD 2.5" SATA MX500
Corsair CX450M 450W modular
Cooler Master MasterBox Q300L

edit: forgot cooler and fans
Be Quiet! Pure Rock Slim
Deepcool XFAN 120L/B LED (4pcs)


all of that seems good i would go with the i5 8400 then and then use your old card and wait until new cards comes out later this year ;)
06/05/2018 20:25Posted by Brelgor
Currently with an i5 processor my fan is going crazy when playing WoW, so no doubt the game puts quite the pressure on it.

GeForce 920M graphics, and can run fine at 5 setting in almost all circumstances.

To add, it's a Dell laptop, kind looked for something decent at the time( couple of years ago) so i wouldn't have to change hardware...much, only added 256 gig SSD.

But as far as the BfA requirements go, this laptop will do fine. If anything ill seek some upgrades although laptops have their limitations.
Is there really any need for a CPU above i5, in terms of performance when it comes to WoW BfA?

P.S. Unrelated, but after installing BfA alpha, my live WoW began crashing, so had to uninstall. Not sure why, i suspect it was due to the fact that last install took the last of my 250 gigs on SSD ;o

you can't think of an i5 on desktop and mobile being similar. an i5 on desktop is usually very different to an i5 on mobile. to be honest you can't even assume that i5 on mobile is similar to i5 on mobile, there are a number of very large differences, moreso than on desktop.

your fan spinning up doesn't really mean much as to how demanding it is, it just means that your laptop is making a lot of noise cooling it. maybe the cpu is being stressed hard, or maybe the cooling is undersized, maybe the thermal paste is dried up since you say it's been a few years, maybe it just has an aggressive fan curve. it could be a number of things.
Three reasons why the answer is so unclear:

1. The product names of AMD and Intel processors do not directly describe the performance potential. There can be more than a factor of ten difference for a particular program running on the lowest end or highest end processor currently in production.

2. The CPU market is shifting rapidly since AMD's Ryzen brand emerged as a viable competitor to Intel's Core a year ago. The perception of what is entry level and what is luxury is still in flux in people's minds. Even in the minds of programmers; current software isn't always prepared to fully utilize current hardware. It is impossible to accurately predict how quickly a particular program will evolve to make use of more and more processor cores.

3. The WoW engine spans a really large range from lowest to highest gfx settings. The amount of resources required also varies widely, and the most limiting resource can be CPU, GPU, RAM, or something else.

One year ago, quad core processors were located in the midrange to high end for consumers; six and more cores were thought of as workstation or server processors. Today, four cores are low end; anything less is regarded as a bad compromise for lowest possible cost.

One year ago, consumer software that utilized more than four cores was a rarity. These days, software vendors have begun to actively market multithreading capabilities of their programs.

So, to attempt a recommendation:

1. You should get at least four cores (regardless of processor name). If you don't know already that you will use compute intensive applications, you should get at most four cores. After all, your budget is limited.

2. WoW uses a very old engine, and Blizzard knows quite well that many of their customers are playing on older computers. Blizzard is unlikely to leave a few hundred thousand customers behind only to please a few thousand players with gaming hot rods. Blizzard has little incentive to be an early adopter of high core count processors.

3. The money you save on the processor can be invested in GPU (or possibly RAM, if prices weren't so high right now). This increases the detail level at which your machine can still achieve smooth frame rates. So you end up with a larger range (from 1 to upper limit) in which you can trivially tune your WoW experience.

And finally two more issues that complicate the decision:

1:
AMD promises that their AM4 platform will be supported at least until 2020, across four generations of Ryzen processors (or maybe more). Intel has abandoned compatibility every second generation. This has an impact on partial upgrades of the machine in the future.

2:
Overclocking Intel processors requires paying premiums for CPU and for mainboard. Overclocking AMD processors only requires avoiding the lowest tier of mainboard. This is not a recommendation to overclock - but when you are on a tight budget, this used to be a common way to squeeze out a little more value for money.

That probably didn't clear things up a lot. But maybe now you have a better appreciation for why this topic is so muddy right now. Competition is good! :-)

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