When should the raids be unlocked?

Classic Discussion
So. What do you think would be a good time interval between the raids? I think, since we have to get along with the old content, we should stretch it a bit and not publish it in the original time intervals.

Original progression timeline:
Release of WoW Vanilla 7.11.2004 (11/07/2004) (Edit: EU release: 11.2.2005 <=> 02/11/2005)
-> 8 months (EU: 5 months)
Blackwinglair was released on 12.7.2005 (07/12/2005)
-> 2 months
Zul'Gurub was released on 13.9.2005 (09/13/2005)
-> 1 month
Dragons of Nightmare were released 10.10.2005 (10/10/2005)
-> 2 month
AQ was released on 3.1.2006 (01/03/2006)
-> 5 1/2 month
Naxx was released on 20.6.2006 (06/20/2006)

At release you have to consider the leveling phase and at AQ you have to consider the event. The Dragons of Nightmare are also certainly not as long lasting as for example Blackwinglair is.

Just to take the big raids into account:
Release Raids -> 8 months to BWL (5 in EU) -> 4 1/2 months to AQ -> 5 1/2 months to Naxx.

(please correct me if there are any mistakes in the dates)
Original release schedule or even longer. I'm not in a hurry. I want to enjoy every second as long as I can.
Same as Nefara for me, original or longer and i'm happy.
Fedan:
When should the raids be unlocked?


All at the same time. Classic is 1 install with everything in it.
11/05/2018 18:58Posted by Nefara
Original release schedule or even longer. I'm not in a hurry. I want to enjoy every second as long as I can.


100% agreed. I want time to enjoy my content and then layer it and layer it with more too.

It feels good to be able to look forward to something with everyone else :)
8 months of mc and onyxia :)... carefull what you wish for. But yea the rest should be the same. Gearing a character took time back then. It feels good when you finally get the pieces you want so badly and move on to the next raid.
12/05/2018 01:09Posted by Holyvita
carefull what you wish for
Well...I played level-stopp on retail for ca. 9 years now...I definitely know what it means to wait for content or to occupy oneself with limited content (or even to deal with Blizzard's decisions to cancel content...).
For me 8 months are nothing (and consider: there are 40 man and just 2 drops per boss in MC...and those not even have to be the ones needed).

But not even a half year (6 months) between the big tier-raids seems way to fast for me. You have to think about that those servers shall run over years. I do remember about the fast release of the T9 raid in WotLK while Ulduar wasn't clear for a lot of guilds (that also were just 4 months of difference between the releases)...I don't want to experience something like that again.

In my opinion they should release the raids/bosses in the following progression (or even longer):
Release -> 2 months to release Raids (MC, Ony) -> 9 months to BWL -> 4 months to ZG + Nightmare Dragons -> 4 months to AQ -> 8 months to Naxx

(I did not bring up Kazzak, Azuregos and Diremaul here...those can be set in at some point after MC...maybe after 5 months...not to near to BWL but far enough to be useful)

Overall: 27 months (2 years and 3 months)
The original progression would take about 18 months ( 1 1/2 year) ; (Edit: Europe: 15 months = 1 year 3 months)
Classic will be a dead-end game (for raiders). It doesn't need time gated instances (for raiders).

Time gating (for raiders) can only be done once per server. After that there better be a timeless gear/progress track in place or else you have a broken server (for raiders AND non-raiders that may eventually come around to doing 'endgame').

Considering raiders are already moaning about putting up paywalls to filter out non-raiders i think time gated crap shortens the lifespan of a server even more (for raiders) and ruin it for the longer term (non-raiders that may eventually...etc.)

So best way imo is to put a skill/gear/progress combo track in place to make and keep Classic servers timeless. Which fits the goal of Classic servers... to be there 'forever'.
12/05/2018 11:45Posted by Shogath
Classic will be a dead-end game. It doesn't need time gated instances.


I disagree,

In the end, we are all nerds. Gearing may still take some time but I can guarantee that if you put out content, it is gona be insta cleared. It also isn't going to be as genuine a feel if everything is out at once.

Letting us have some stuff to look forward to is an excellent idea.

This is also a tried and tested formula on live and pservers. It doesn't work in retail because they make every previous tier obsolete but in vanilla it has a layering effect because content doesn't become obsolete. You still farm MC when BWL is out. You still farm dungeons because of the drops in them (skins, darkrunes in scholo, orbs in strat live, buffs in DM:Trib, gear for alts just to name a few examples)
12/05/2018 11:54Posted by Kagemoth
Letting us have some stuff to look forward to is an excellent idea.
It is, but not through timegating on a system that is going to have to last many years.

A solid skill/gear/progress based track will keep Classic timeless.

12/05/2018 11:54Posted by Kagemoth
it is gona be insta cleared
So what?
12/05/2018 12:18Posted by Shogath


12/05/2018 11:54Posted by Kagemoth
it is gona be insta cleared
So what?


12/05/2018 11:54Posted by Kagemoth

Letting us have some stuff to look forward to is an excellent idea.


Gearing and natural progression will feel very disjointed if you were release everything at once. A good example why not releasing everything at once is a good idea is AV. AV has some crazy items in it that is almost mandatory for all classes. Like the ring for physical dps. That ring is giving 1 hit and crit and AP. It is extremely powerful.

So basically as you ding 60 you get a ring of that power right off the bat to go into MC with. It is more powerful than almost everything in there.

Another thing is PvP gear. Why bother farming to rank 13 or 14 if your gear is equal to AQ40 and you can get there in a fraction of the time. If the content has gating it allows those players to actually use the gear and enjoy the power they earned before being placed on an even footing with everyone else. It rewards that effort.

It also allows people time to prepare for upcoming content.

The benefits of gating the content for Vanilla just outweighs the need to have everything released at once. It works because, like I said in my previous post, Vanilla doesn't make all it's content obsolete every raid tier. ^^
I'm good with a raid release schedule similar to how it was in the original Vanilla. Though bear in mind it was released february 11, 2005 here. You have the US release date. But I'm okay with changing it to save Blizzard from having to make separate schedules for the regions.
In all honestly they should just launch the game with Naxxramas already there. The main issue with time-gating content is that we already know exactly what's coming next: After MC/Ony will be BWL etc. I don't really see a practical reason why content that is already there should be put on hold. Back in the day it made sense because the content itself still had to be made. Nowadays it would just be a ton of extra effort for something that will only be useful for a limited amount of time. That's the opposite of good development.
12/05/2018 15:12Posted by Metalj
In all honestly they should just launch the game with Naxxramas already there. The main issue with time-gating content is that we already know exactly what's coming next: After MC/Ony will be BWL etc. I don't really see a practical reason why content that is already there should be put on hold. Back in the day it made sense because the content itself still had to be made. Nowadays it would just be a ton of extra effort for something that will only be useful for a limited amount of time. That's the opposite of good development.


I gave some reasons just 2 posts above this.
Vanilla is vanilla, leave it at that. otherwise its not the game the community was asking for is it.
I gave some reasons just 2 posts above this.


Alright, so after giving it a quick read it's mostly about itemization right?
See, the thing about vanilla wow is that itemization is always screwed, simply because the game was new and the developers were figuring out how things worked. Sure, you can launch pre-dire Maul and your PVP set would be amazing, but the counterpoint to that is that if you go back to that point all of a sudden you can enter Stratholm/ubrs with 10 people, collect all the resistance gear you need, and suddenly you'll be prepared to enter AQ40 like half a year before it even comes out.

As much as I would love vanilla progression in theory, the thing is that since the roadmap has already been laid out before there will always be a group of people that clear the latest content as soon as it comes out. I would like to ask why potentially a year of extra development time would in your eyes be worth it, knowing that a while after release every single server will be at the same end point anyway? The experience won't even be more genuine in my eyes, because you're not gonna use that time to farm that purple staff from Scholomance, every single one of us is gonna use that time to collect a NR set for when AQ40 comes out.
12/05/2018 16:04Posted by Metalj
I gave some reasons just 2 posts above this.


Alright, so after giving it a quick read it's mostly about itemization right?
See, the thing about vanilla wow is that itemization is always screwed, simply because the game was new and the developers were figuring out how things worked. Sure, you can launch pre-dire Maul and your PVP set would be amazing, but the counterpoint to that is that if you go back to that point all of a sudden you can enter Stratholm/ubrs with 10 people, collect all the resistance gear you need, and suddenly you'll be prepared to enter AQ40 like half a year before it even comes out.

As much as I would love vanilla progression in theory, the thing is that since the roadmap has already been laid out before there will always be a group of people that clear the latest content as soon as it comes out. I would like to ask why potentially a year of extra development time would in your eyes be worth it, knowing that a while after release every single server will be at the same end point anyway? The experience won't even be more genuine in my eyes, because you're not gonna use that time to farm that purple staff from Scholomance, every single one of us is gonna use that time to collect a NR set for when AQ40 comes out.


It wouldn't take extra development time to gate the content. Infact, if you wanted it all released at once that would take more time since everything would need to be made.

Let us pretend that all the content is created already. They can simply lock the instances. That in itself is pretty simple to do, then just unlock them when the time is right.

As for the itemisation, that is part of the point. It gives you something to look forward to and work for. Your BiS changes through the patches.

Here is an example; let's pretend that the content is gated. For me, (as a priest) to get pre-bis shoulders I will likely go farm UBRS for the devout shoulders or spend some gold and get Elder Wizard's Mantle. If all content is released though, then it means I skip either of those options and just get Mantle of Lost Hope which is comparable to T2.

Releasing all content at the start IS TAKING AWAY content from me, where as if content is gated, someone who arrives late to the party can farm up a Mantle of Lost Hope to not be so completely outgeared.
12/05/2018 11:54Posted by Kagemoth
Letting us have some stuff to look forward to is an excellent idea.
It is, but not through timegating on a system that is going to have to last many years.

A solid skill/gear/progress based track will keep Classic timeless.

You showed in many posts you aren't interested in raiding so please stop reinvent raiding for others. And Vanilla didn't last into infinity. It had a very fixed lifespan. It's not designed or intended to be infinite or lasting many years without loosing population or re rolling, twinking (or going into BC).

As for timeline. Here is one from a private server: http://www.kronos-wow.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/timeline-yo.jpg from march 2018 to august 2019. It ends with Naxx release and like a year or two after that there still will be a lot of non-hardcore raiders that do clear easier raids but not AQ40 or Naxx. Right now, day before MC and Onyxia opens there is no DM nor items added after 1.3. There is a lot of Rend/Jed runs, BRD arena, BRD lava runs, some Scholo, some Strat. Base content has it time now.
12/05/2018 16:34Posted by Bigkeg
You showed in many posts you aren't interested in raiding so please stop reinvent raiding for others.
Stop why? Because it hurts your raiders feelings? lol.
12/05/2018 16:34Posted by Bigkeg
And Vanilla didn't last into infinity. It had a very fixed lifespan. It's not designed or intended to be infinite or lasting many years without loosing population or re rolling, twinking (or going into BC).
Indeed... but Classic is dead-ended and supposed to be around for a very long time with a constant flow of new people.

What about people that come in a year after the cycle starts? Screw them?
12/05/2018 16:34Posted by Bigkeg
You showed in many posts you aren't interested in raiding so please stop reinvent raiding for others.
Stop why? Because it hurts your raiders feelings? lol.

No - because you are a selfish or narcissistic troll. What makes you want to change the whole game just to have all raids at start which you won't run? Vanilla raid gear already has power creep and capability to one-shot people - and to have all raids on start and all raids viable they would have to:

- make Classic
- redo HP pools, value of every base and late game stat
- restat and redo gear in most raids to make them meaningful to respective classes
- add insane power creep to each raid tier to make each viable and required

So in short kill all the vanilla combat experience, turn gearing upside-down and introduce tons of problems with such a massive change.


12/05/2018 16:34Posted by Bigkeg
And Vanilla didn't last into infinity. It had a very fixed lifespan. It's not designed or intended to be infinite or lasting many years without loosing population or re rolling, twinking (or going into BC).
Indeed... but Classic is dead-ended and supposed to be around for a very long time with a constant flow of new people.

What about people that come in a year after the cycle starts? Screw them?

1) new realms with time (just like in the past)
2a) if it will be popular - BC then WoTLK
2b) if not then leave it as is, just maybe cycle 1)
3) if it goes crazy - each expansion up to current (which at some could allow them to redo/alter game world on future expansion without loosing previous content)

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