Class balance changes and why

Classic Discussion
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this is a lengthy post, but i can't help it. i know this thread will get a lot of hate, especially from people playing warriors, mages, rogues and priests, but i really wanted to illustrate things that some *stubborn* vanilla-only people are taking the wrong way. i played vanilla, but because the game felt oriented around 4 classes with most specs not working - it felt monotone, at least comparing it to TBC where every class worked, which might not ever release. what this post will try to do is illustrate that the core game concepts of "why people like vanilla", won't change and that class balance changes, such as slightly buffing/tuning super weak specs and abilities, won't mean that classes will lose their identity, uniqueness and so on. moreover, it will help them retain and enhance those qualities.

currently, there are 4 classes that dominate everything, both PVE and PVP: warrior, mage, rogue and priest. in PVE, you reserve about 30 slots (75% of the raid) for just those 4 classes (and there are 8 classes in the game for each faction) - the of the slots are going for buff bots, hunters (for tranq shot) and warlocks. in PVP, rogues are simply the best, followed by mages and warriors.

you might argue: "but that made classes unique!", "changes will recreate legion!", "vanilla was there because of that!" and so on.
let's start with the first. what is so unique with about 67% of the server playing those 4 classes? how unique are people playing mages in MC, for example? they all run identical spec (frost), with identical talent distribution, they all follow the same gearing procedure, they all use the same ability at the same time and there's 8-10 of them in raid - you can even multibox them and there would be no difference at all. what buffing other classes (hybrids) would do is improve the class distribution and raids wouldn't be compiled of 4 classes only. i am NOT taking into consideration: "but you can make the class viable" - which is not enough and everyone in their sane mind would rather take any other DPS, warrior tank or healer instead of that hybrid and when you compare oomkin's 300 dps in preraid BiS with that of 600 of a mage that also has the best AoE, having battle res and 3% spell crit aura don't matter at all. playing a paladin in raids didn't feel like an unique experience at all. you were there to buff people and that's it. priests overhealed you by A LOT and if those buffs were moved to another class, there would be 0 reason to invite any paladin to the raid.

second argument is that vanilla had A LOT of changes from 1.1 to 1.12. those changes included class changes and even complete talent revamps for every single class. so what is vanilla then? is it the 1.1 version of the game? it obviously got changed since the time it got released. why are we suddenly so afraid of every single change after witnessing 11 patches of SIGNIFICANT class changes? basically, vanilla was special because of those other things:
the leveling was MUCH harder than it is now or on every other expansion; gold had real value during vanilla and TBC and getting that epic mount was truly a rewarding experience and felt like a major acomplishment; there was also no flying and everything was going at a much slower pace - the world was immersive; up until cataclysm, classes felt really unique - they had their own set of skills, mechanics and were differing from other classes.

and class balance changes won't recreate legion or anything else. let's take an example of a balance druid (a spec literally no serious guild will ever want - even innervate is used on themselves). how would buffing starfire to cost less mana and either deal more damage when used consecutively or reduce its cast time recreate legion? the same can be said for paladins - how would giving a protection paladin a taunt to make it a decent trash tank recreate legion? or a bear druid? wouldn't it be good for the game to have 3 warrior tanks with 1 druid and 1 paladin instead of only having 5 warrior tanks?

"no class should be able to fulfill mutliple roles" - when it comes to that, one class is completely forgotten and negates that rule - WARRIOR. warriors are the best tanks and the best DPSers in the game. what happened to their "tax"? priests can only be healers in raids and the same goes for druids, shamans and paladins... but what about warriors? they don't have a healing spec, that's true, but they're the only class that can play two roles instead of only one.

taking a look into PVP aspect, again, the game was dominated by 3 classes: rogues, mages and warriors, while druids for example, were the worst PVP class in the game.

all in all as a druid only player, the class (along with paladins) simply sucked for EVERYTHING, with leveling being the only good thing, but even there they were surpassed by hunters and warlocks, being on par with mages. what classic without changes would mean to me is that if i want to play a class i love the most, the class i started playing this game because, i'm stuck playing a subpar healer that gets invited 'cause of the buffs i provide and only 'cause of that - my healing doesn't even come close to that of a priest. what class balancing would've done is even out the class distribution and push those weak classes so they can at least come close to others. hybrids are supporters and they should never be able to keep up with pure DPS, but by making their support stuff relevant, unique and important, they can at least be considered into joining a good guild. class balance changes would NOT change the authentic vanilla experience, it would NOT make all classes the same like it's the case with legion, it would NOT make classes lose their identity and it would NOT mean that Blizzard will start pumping out more, non-class related, patches.
Blizzard won't balance classes in Classic. At this point it amazes me how people still don't get it that Vanilla will be Vanilla. Blizz said it at Blizzcon, they said it in multiple interviews. Deal with it or don't play it.
15/05/2018 01:46Posted by Luminnar
why are we suddenly so afraid of every single change after witnessing 11 patches of SIGNIFICANT class changes?

Because it didn't happen in Classic and Blizz is recreating Classic. "For better or for worse" as Brack said.
How amusing that Nochangers never mained a paladin/druid/shaman and never plan to main them. But go full rage mode when the people that do want to play them ask for only fair changes made to them.

b4 lies about playing them, no I don't believe u.

I'd welcome some class changes for the better of the game.
paladins don't need a taunt, that's part of what made the game fun,.

The threat worked well, and you know you smashing a mob before the tank touches it so he has to use taunt at the wrong time because of impatient people.

Vanilla might need a few new items from dungeons , thats pretty much it

maybe even some LFG tool, unless you want to see spam and waste precious time doing zilcho
15/05/2018 06:38Posted by Lapislazuli
How amusing that Nochangers never mained a paladin/druid/shaman and never plan to main them. But go full rage mode when the people that do want to play them ask for only fair changes made to them.

b4 lies about playing them, no I don't believe u.

I'd welcome some class changes for the better of the game.


I played all the classes to 60 back then, and i'm still #nochanges

Raided on all of them and did PVP on all of them.

This is the experience we want and have been pushing for.

If they released all of these changes it would be detrimental to the whole experience(as well as the community and playerbase they are hoping to re-build), and the key factor here is the experience.

With buffed, balanced and revamped classes and other changes from the start, it wouldn't be much of a classic experience now, would it? No, quite far from it.

Those of us who pushed for this for the past decade want the exact same experience as we had back then. No, we won't get the same sensation as we did back then, with the game being brand new, but we can get the same experience if they do it right.

15/05/2018 06:38Posted by Lapislazuli
b4 lies about playing them, no I don't believe u.


Who are you, to sit there on your pitiful pedestal, telling me i'm lying?

Hurry back, child, to your fancy private server(s) and leave us #nochangers alone and stop trying to hurt WoW Classic.
They should just offer us 2 versions of Classic...a Vanilla one and an enhanced one.

Won‘t be much more work but it would definitely end this battle between changers and noChangers which will even continue if only one version is released.
15/05/2018 07:00Posted by Geronîmoo
Hurry back, child, to your fancy private server(s) and leave us #nochangers alone and stop trying to hurt WoW Classic.


'Nuff said.
15/05/2018 07:14Posted by Fedan
They should just offer us 2 versions of Classic...a Vanilla one and an enhanced one.

Won‘t be much more work but it would definitely end this battle between changers and noChangers which will even continue if only one version is released.


so what changes would be on the changes server? think anyone will be happy in the end will be happy with what changes they got and didnt?

seems like a buttload of work to me
That would be the topic of an explicitly called enhanced Classic server. There we could discuss without that „slippery slope“ and „no changes“ screams.
It would be a much more friendly environment to talk about changes then.
What you view as "balancing" , most of the people who appreciate and understand Vanilla WoW game for what it was, actually view as "unbalancing" and slowly destroying the game.

Your view of "specs not working" comes from a limited mindset focused solely on raiding.

Although not all raiders have this limiting mindset, some of them love the game as a whole - leveling, solo play, PvP, wPvP and dungeons, and they do understand that every "spec" has it's place in the game.

Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions and taking numbers out of my behind, but I feel all this whining about "class balance" and "useless specs" exclusively comes from players who want to play the flowing classes/specs in following scenarios:

1. 90% Paladins, paladins, paladins.... By far the most whiny class in WoW.
Paladins who want to raid as dps spec because they feel that healing role is somewhat inferior in a video game.
So they want this mighty holy warrior destroyer class!

Hate to break it to you, there is no holy warrior destroyer class in vanilla wow, like there is one from Wotlk to Legion.

I also feel these paladin players are not interested in PvP at all (sorry but you are just freaking carebears bad at PvP), as they would know that in PvP even a non holy paladin is a beast, as most of the hybrid classes are in PvP.

But Wotlk to retail PvE holy warrior destroyers whine cause they want their unexisting class to be present in vanilla.

2. 3% Shadow priests. Who want to dps in raids and be in the top of the charts. They only whine cause don't want to be a holy priest in raid.

Why would I heal with a best healing class in a 40 man PvE scenario? No, I want to outdps mages with my shadow destroying spells.

Well there can be 1 shadow priest per raid. If you feel like rolling the dice try to get the spot, but in reality, spec holy and help your team.

People who appreciate both PvP and raiding, will gladly raid as a holy priest, gear up fast, spec shadow and destroy faces in PVP (again one of the best 1v1 class spec in game).

3. 3% Druids. Druids are great in PvP, they are most versatile class in the game.
They are also great in PvE, but not because of their damage ("But I want to outdps rogues as feral!!!"), or healing, but because of their utility.

They were never about damage in Vanilla, they were about pretty much everything else but damage.

Obviously OP is a druid tank and he wants to play full druid tank in vanilla.
Tough news OP, you can't main tank raids.

If you appreciate your class because it has great utility, play a druid. If you want destroyer boomkin or feral (or main tank) in raid scenario, you want to play a wrong game then.

4. 3% Shamans. Great AOE raid healing class + buffing class. Why wouldn't you heal your raid? It's the most needed role.

Again if you like PvP, you wouldn't whine couse you would know that your class specced ele or enh will be a great burster that also has heals, interrupts, slows and purge.

But in PvE raiding you heal. It's the most noble role. Help others.

Everyone will tell you Vanilla definitely wasn't about who is doing the most dps in raids.

If you allready know that, but are still very pumped up and determined that this is exactly the most important thing for you about playing this game, then there are classes you can roll that will do this perfectly.

But these are not a freaking ret paladin, priest, druid or shaman.
Vanilla is a snapshot of World of Warcraft at a specific time, was it perfect? - no, were there things that could have been improved? - yes.

There are so many things about Vanilla that if you put them under a microscope seem unbalanced and unfair. Some classes were weaker at dps or healing, some had mount quests, some had unique abilities WF, BoS, Combat res.

If everyone's requests were answered and "fixed" we wouln't have Vanilla - it would be a totally new game based on vanilla.
This could ruin the balance way too much. E.G. TBC shadow priests helped with mana starve, therefore they could have a bit too much of impact with attrition fights. They'd have to rebalance the entire game around it.

I would not mind playing Vanilla with TBC-like balance. This way the game would be "new" and feel more unknown to us instead of being researched on for a decade. I dislike the fact that hybrids were underpowered in Vanilla, Blizzard clearly intended them to be hybrid (e.g. moonkin aura), but they were too weak to justify inclusion. But let's be real, we won't get anything but Vanilla balance.
15/05/2018 10:13Posted by Snookiwooki
If everyone's requests were answered and "fixed" we wouln't have Vanilla - it would be a totally new game based on vanilla.

Kek. Just to use an argument from the purists: „that is what we wanted and were asking for for more than 10 years“.

So...we all should want 2 versions of Classic. Even the purists to get their authentic one without having trouble with Changers anymore.
15/05/2018 11:01Posted by Fedan
15/05/2018 10:13Posted by Snookiwooki
If everyone's requests were answered and "fixed" we wouln't have Vanilla - it would be a totally new game based on vanilla.

Kek. Just to use an argument from the purists: „that is what we wanted and were asking for for more than 10 years“.

So...we all should want 2 versions of Classic. Even the purists to get their authentic one without having trouble with Changers anymore.


Sort of, I currently want one version of classic and that's true to the original. I feel the reasoning behind these servers was to stop the private servers and satisfy the people craving the old Vanilla experience. If other people want something else then that's fine but go petition Blizzard for it rather than piggy-backing onto the Vanilla resurection movement.

If Blizzard stated they wanted to reboot World of Warcraft, fixing the fundamental floors of the game's design, put some of the QoL changes, update the engine, graphics, models, classes, quests, zones then all of these requests are totally valid. I too feel WoW2 could be a profitable endeavor for Blizzard, they have the modern engine and infrastructure they just need a team of highly motivated developers to re-invent the original feel and game with modern graphics and try to fix some of the more silly changes they made over the expansions.

Will they do this? perhaps if a million or so people petition for this rather than accept expansion after expansion of mediocre souless content.
15/05/2018 11:01Posted by Fedan
15/05/2018 10:13Posted by Snookiwooki
If everyone's requests were answered and "fixed" we wouln't have Vanilla - it would be a totally new game based on vanilla.

Kek. Just to use an argument from the purists: „that is what we wanted and were asking for for more than 10 years“.

So...we all should want 2 versions of Classic. Even the purists to get their authentic one without having trouble with Changers anymore.

Well, all the changers want different stuff, so of course they won't settle on one set of changes.
15/05/2018 01:46Posted by Luminnar
this is a lengthy post, but i can't help it. i know this thread will get a lot of hate, especially from people playing warriors, mages, rogues and priests, but i really wanted to illustrate things that some *stubborn* vanilla-only people are taking the wrong way. i played vanilla, but because the game felt oriented around 4 classes with most specs not working - it felt monotone, at least comparing it to TBC where every class worked, which might not ever release. what this post will try to do is illustrate that the core game concepts of "why people like vanilla", won't change and that class balance changes, such as slightly buffing/tuning super weak specs and abilities, won't mean that classes will lose their identity, uniqueness and so on. moreover, it will help them retain and enhance those qualities.

currently, there are 4 classes that dominate everything, both PVE and PVP: warrior, mage, rogue and priest. in PVE, you reserve about 30 slots (75% of the raid) for just those 4 classes (and there are 8 classes in the game for each faction) - the of the slots are going for buff bots, hunters (for tranq shot) and warlocks. in PVP, rogues are simply the best, followed by mages and warriors.

you might argue: "but that made classes unique!", "changes will recreate legion!", "vanilla was there because of that!" and so on.
let's start with the first. what is so unique with about 67% of the server playing those 4 classes? how unique are people playing mages in MC, for example? they all run identical spec (frost), with identical talent distribution, they all follow the same gearing procedure, they all use the same ability at the same time and there's 8-10 of them in raid - you can even multibox them and there would be no difference at all. what buffing other classes (hybrids) would do is improve the class distribution and raids wouldn't be compiled of 4 classes only. i am NOT taking into consideration: "but you can make the class viable" - which is not enough and everyone in their sane mind would rather take any other DPS, warrior tank or healer instead of that hybrid and when you compare oomkin's 300 dps in preraid BiS with that of 600 of a mage that also has the best AoE, having battle res and 3% spell crit aura don't matter at all. playing a paladin in raids didn't feel like an unique experience at all. you were there to buff people and that's it. priests overhealed you by A LOT and if those buffs were moved to another class, there would be 0 reason to invite any paladin to the raid.

second argument is that vanilla had A LOT of changes from 1.1 to 1.12. those changes included class changes and even complete talent revamps for every single class. so what is vanilla then? is it the 1.1 version of the game? it obviously got changed since the time it got released. why are we suddenly so afraid of every single change after witnessing 11 patches of SIGNIFICANT class changes? basically, vanilla was special because of those other things:
the leveling was MUCH harder than it is now or on every other expansion; gold had real value during vanilla and TBC and getting that epic mount was truly a rewarding experience and felt like a major acomplishment; there was also no flying and everything was going at a much slower pace - the world was immersive; up until cataclysm, classes felt really unique - they had their own set of skills, mechanics and were differing from other classes.

and class balance changes won't recreate legion or anything else. let's take an example of a balance druid (a spec literally no serious guild will ever want - even innervate is used on themselves). how would buffing starfire to cost less mana and either deal more damage when used consecutively or reduce its cast time recreate legion? the same can be said for paladins - how would giving a protection paladin a taunt to make it a decent trash tank recreate legion? or a bear druid? wouldn't it be good for the game to have 3 warrior tanks with 1 druid and 1 paladin instead of only having 5 warrior tanks?

"no class should be able to fulfill mutliple roles" - when it comes to that, one class is completely forgotten and negates that rule - WARRIOR. warriors are the best tanks and the best DPSers in the game. what happened to their "tax"? priests can only be healers in raids and the same goes for druids, shamans and paladins... but what about warriors? they don't have a healing spec, that's true, but they're the only class that can play two roles instead of only one.

taking a look into PVP aspect, again, the game was dominated by 3 classes: rogues, mages and warriors, while druids for example, were the worst PVP class in the game.

all in all as a druid only player, the class (along with paladins) simply sucked for EVERYTHING, with leveling being the only good thing, but even there they were surpassed by hunters and warlocks, being on par with mages. what classic without changes would mean to me is that if i want to play a class i love the most, the class i started playing this game because, i'm stuck playing a subpar healer that gets invited 'cause of the buffs i provide and only 'cause of that - my healing doesn't even come close to that of a priest. what class balancing would've done is even out the class distribution and push those weak classes so they can at least come close to others. hybrids are supporters and they should never be able to keep up with pure DPS, but by making their support stuff relevant, unique and important, they can at least be considered into joining a good guild. class balance changes would NOT change the authentic vanilla experience, it would NOT make all classes the same like it's the case with legion, it would NOT make classes lose their identity and it would NOT mean that Blizzard will start pumping out more, non-class related, patches.


Great post, but I dont know why do you even care. #nochangespuristselitistsultrapros that cant complete modern raids not even in raid finder difficulty will allways argue against you with bull!@#$ like you have listed. It all about "feeling", "role", "uniqueness" and all that pointless arguments in their personal pursuit of recreating an experience of past (unable to achieve because, you know, its part of the past) that blind their sight with a pink painted glasses. Its pointless to discuss objectively with people in that kind of... state
15/05/2018 11:59Posted by Eorfindel
that blind their sight with a pink painted glasses.
That is what ultimately made Blizzard decide to create Classic.

And the haters from the "pink painted glasses' era are now here to change it because of some deep rooted hatred against old stuff. Or maybe it's just jealousy... dunno.

Fact is you people are funny... in a bad way.
15/05/2018 12:09Posted by Shogath
15/05/2018 11:59Posted by Eorfindel
that blind their sight with a pink painted glasses.
That is what ultimately made Blizzard decide to create Classic.

And the haters from the "pink painted glasses' era are now here to change it because of some deep rooted hatred against old stuff. Or maybe it's just jealousy... dunno.

Fact is you people are funny... in a bad way.


Dont get me wrong, I dont hate old stuff, I love it! And I do not pretend to change Classic server, I will play on in any version, with changes or without them (as long as I dont have to pay an additional subscription).

Jealousy hahaha... you are so funny, in a good way.
15/05/2018 12:59Posted by Eorfindel
Dont get me wrong, I dont hate old stuff, I love it!
Could have fooled me.
15/05/2018 12:59Posted by Eorfindel
Jealousy hahaha... you are so funny, in a good way.
Yeah, Jealousy...
I’ll paste the response i’ve just added to another thread

Hybrid classes, aren’t or shouldn’t be intended to be top dps, or the best tanks, they brought versatility and buffs to a party/raid

Boomkins gave casters a 3% crit aura? Prot palas could offtank boss mobs or large groups of mobs, and enhance shamans could do some decent dps and provided buffs for melee players or am i wrong?

All people care about is topping meters why not think about how your spec can help the team? 40 man raids were a team effort, having a rogue top the dps meters should be intended, but just because that rogue is pushing amazing dps out doesn’t mean he gets the most credit on a kill! They cannot heal, bring very little in the way of buffs/debuffs and don’t have the versatility of a feral druid. An enhance shaman with the Nightfall Axe and totems will greatly enhance a raids overall dps, so yes they are a viable spec and will be able to progress in raids, and if i remember enhance shamans were also pretty good for PvP!

Class diversity gave a place in a raid for all classes and specs, and class diversity has been lost in retail, multiple classes now have interrupts and CC and kiting abilities they never used to have and even most buffs have been removed so you can almost essentially run a raid without planning any sort of class balance in a raid

In short, its a team game not for individuals to get depressed because they get out dps’d, just enjoy your class for what it is and what it can bring to benefit your team, and if thats not enough for you, roll a pure class rather than a hybrid class?

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