Class balance changes and why

Classic Discussion
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15/05/2018 13:18Posted by Mordaine
An enhance shaman with the Nightfall Axe and totems will greatly enhance a raids overall dps

It has been tested that a hunter is a better choice for using the [Nightfall Axe] since his uptime is far better, using wing clip.
15/05/2018 13:18Posted by Mordaine
Boomkins gave casters a 3% crit aura?

Math was done and Boomkins weren't worth it. 3% crit to casters is not good enough.
15/05/2018 13:18Posted by Mordaine
Prot palas could offtank boss mobs or large groups of mobs

Feral druids could. Prots could not.
15/05/2018 13:18Posted by Mordaine
enhance shamans could do some decent dps and provided buffs for melee players or am i wrong

1. Enh dps was abysmal.
2. Resto shams could provide the same buffs.
15/05/2018 13:18Posted by Mordaine
An enhance shaman with the Nightfall Axe and totems will greatly enhance a raids overall dps, so yes they are a viable spec

That's an extremely niche case and yeah, not only shamans could wield Nightfall. Hunter or Paladins (alliance side) were good enough for that.
15/05/2018 13:18Posted by Mordaine
Class diversity gave a place in a raid for all classes and specs

Nope. Many specs were weak and not needed for an optimal composition. You're talking about TBC, that's where hybrids finally became viable.
@OP.

let's pretend for second that they make class balance what you request.

now feral druid is almost able to do same damage as rogue, thus new meta is feral > rogue, no one wants rogue in raids because they do nearly the same DPS, but feral also brings : innervate, combat ress and extra healing if neccessary and ability to switch to offtank.

so now every elitist guild / streamer, their little follower puppets and their grandson is yelling "ROGUE NOT VIABLE ROGUE NOT VIABLE" even if it is.

aaaand then we are in the starting point, exept now vanilla is not vanilla anymore and game is messed up, and meta has changed.

and keep in mind, i'm only talking about raiding / endgame aspect, i havent even mentioned leveling and pvp, they are part of vanilla too, because hybrids are already powerful on those, they could become OP with buffs.
15/05/2018 14:11Posted by Cai
@OP.

let's pretend for second that they make class balance what you request.

now feral druid is almost able to do same damage as rogue, thus new meta is feral > rogue, no one wants rogue in raids because they do nearly the same DPS, but feral also brings : innervate, combat ress and extra healing if neccessary and ability to switch to offtank.

so now every elitist guild / streamer, their little follower puppets and their grandson is yelling "ROGUE NOT VIABLE ROGUE NOT VIABLE" even if it is.

aaaand then we are in the starting point, exept now vanilla is not vanilla anymore and game is messed up, and meta has changed.

and keep in mind, i'm only talking about raiding / endgame aspect, i havent even mentioned leveling and pvp, they are part of vanilla too, because hybrids are already powerful on those, they could become OP with buffs.


^ this, you fix one problem and will create a dozen more. I feel whilst well intentioned, some suggestions do fail to explain the ripple effect a change will have and how they propose to address that.

Even if Vanilla seems broken in some places, it's in a state where we know it will work. Changing fundamental core class balance could completely alter how Vanilla is.
It’s better to have classes be equally qualitative in their main aspect of the role but differently in their optional skills than having classes lacking in the main aspect of their role and just having optional skills that are static and cannot be increased through a good/skilled gameplay.

It would be easy to accept that lack of dps if these special skills would be just provideable by a specific specc and not a class in it’s whole and if they would have the same value as the difference between top dps dds and the so called „hybrids“.
And that means even for a second and third player of a hybrid specc.
15/05/2018 09:19Posted by Idanti
What you view as "balancing" , most of the people who appreciate and understand Vanilla WoW game for what it was, actually view as "unbalancing" and slowly destroying the game.

Your view of "specs not working" comes from a limited mindset focused solely on raiding.

Although not all raiders have this limiting mindset, some of them love the game as a whole - leveling, solo play, PvP, wPvP and dungeons, and they do understand that every "spec" has it's place in the game.

Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions and taking numbers out of my behind, but I feel all this whining about "class balance" and "useless specs" exclusively comes from players who want to play the flowing classes/specs in following scenarios:

1. 90% Paladins, paladins, paladins.... By far the most whiny class in WoW.
Paladins who want to raid as dps spec because they feel that healing role is somewhat inferior in a video game.
So they want this mighty holy warrior destroyer class!

Hate to break it to you, there is no holy warrior destroyer class in vanilla wow, like there is one from Wotlk to Legion.

I also feel these paladin players are not interested in PvP at all (sorry but you are just freaking carebears bad at PvP), as they would know that in PvP even a non holy paladin is a beast, as most of the hybrid classes are in PvP.

But Wotlk to retail PvE holy warrior destroyers whine cause they want their unexisting class to be present in vanilla.

2. 3% Shadow priests. Who want to dps in raids and be in the top of the charts. They only whine cause don't want to be a holy priest in raid.

Why would I heal with a best healing class in a 40 man PvE scenario? No, I want to outdps mages with my shadow destroying spells.

Well there can be 1 shadow priest per raid. If you feel like rolling the dice try to get the spot, but in reality, spec holy and help your team.

People who appreciate both PvP and raiding, will gladly raid as a holy priest, gear up fast, spec shadow and destroy faces in PVP (again one of the best 1v1 class spec in game).

3. 3% Druids. Druids are great in PvP, they are most versatile class in the game.
They are also great in PvE, but not because of their damage ("But I want to outdps rogues as feral!!!"), or healing, but because of their utility.

They were never about damage in Vanilla, they were about pretty much everything else but damage.

Obviously OP is a druid tank and he wants to play full druid tank in vanilla.
Tough news OP, you can't main tank raids.

If you appreciate your class because it has great utility, play a druid. If you want destroyer boomkin or feral (or main tank) in raid scenario, you want to play a wrong game then.

4. 3% Shamans. Great AOE raid healing class + buffing class. Why wouldn't you heal your raid? It's the most needed role.

Again if you like PvP, you wouldn't whine couse you would know that your class specced ele or enh will be a great burster that also has heals, interrupts, slows and purge.

But in PvE raiding you heal. It's the most noble role. Help others.

Everyone will tell you Vanilla definitely wasn't about who is doing the most dps in raids.

If you allready know that, but are still very pumped up and determined that this is exactly the most important thing for you about playing this game, then there are classes you can roll that will do this perfectly.

But these are not a freaking ret paladin, priest, druid or shaman.


TL;DR version: vanilla was poorly designed.
15/05/2018 06:38Posted by Lapislazuli
How amusing that Nochangers never mained a paladin/druid/shaman and never plan to main them. But go full rage mode when the people that do want to play them ask for only fair changes made to them.

b4 lies about playing them, no I don't believe u.

I'd welcome some class changes for the better of the game.

I played Hunter on Classic private realms for about 3 years. Hunter is at the bottom of the damage meter in raids most of the time yet i don't demand balancing. You dont need balancing to have fun with your class.
Nah man they won't !@#$ it up with this version too,don't worry. This is their last chance to save WoW again. I think,that they've learned enough with their ''new WoW''. I don't think they need to balance classic WoW,they should balance their sub numbers first.
Ok, let's just spell this out, this is a game that will be based on the original release. It was a massive hit of a game, and a game that hundreds of thousands if not millions of people will want to relive.

Hybrid classes got by just fine in Vanilla, because it wasn't a major thing to be top of every meter and have such a big ego that you should be able to top dps meters in cat form, then go and respec and outdps a mage or lock as a Boomkin, all the while, bringing the feral 3% crit buff, or 3% moonkin aura. Would this be a fair class balance to the pure dps classes such as a rogue or a mage? Maybe time to tame that ego and stop being selfish. If you want to be able to do everything better than everyone else, there are always single player games available, then you'll be the best player around in your little world

My guild completed a fair bit of content, up to i think 4 bosses in Naxx (I so never wanted TBC to come out while we were still enjoying Naxx!). We were by no means hard core, 2-3 raids a week and we accepted hybrids into our raids

We had a prot paly, who offtanked and who sometimes had to respec for a raid and heal for us, he didn't complain, he was part of a team

We had a feral druid who enjoyed dpsing, but was also sometimes required to offtank.. again he didn't care about meters

We had a Boomkin who would sometimes have to help out with healing.. again she only cared about the progression of the guild

People say these specs aren't viable, and sure none of these topped meters, or were main tanking, but did they care? the 3% spell crit aura may not have increased total raid dps, but was it really the end of the world to lose a slight bit of dps? Remember that druid also brought an extra combat res and innervate, as well as the ability to switch to help healing should it be needed. That Prot Paly bought an extra buff, and was able to throw in a few heals

People are so hell bent on changing the original game, when they already have a modified game available in the form of Retail WoW....
15/05/2018 16:36Posted by Mordaine
Ok, let's just spell this out, this is a game that will be based on the original release. It was a massive hit of a game, and a game that hundreds of thousands if not millions of people will want to relive.

Hybrid classes got by just fine in Vanilla, because it wasn't a major thing to be top of every meter and have such a big ego that you should be able to top dps meters in cat form, then go and respec and outdps a mage or lock as a Boomkin, all the while, bringing the feral 3% crit buff, or 3% moonkin aura. Would this be a fair class balance to the pure dps classes such as a rogue or a mage? Maybe time to tame that ego and stop being selfish. If you want to be able to do everything better than everyone else, there are always single player games available, then you'll be the best player around in your little world

My guild completed a fair bit of content, up to i think 4 bosses in Naxx (I so never wanted TBC to come out while we were still enjoying Naxx!). We were by no means hard core, 2-3 raids a week and we accepted hybrids into our raids

We had a prot paly, who offtanked and who sometimes had to respec for a raid and heal for us, he didn't complain, he was part of a team

We had a feral druid who enjoyed dpsing, but was also sometimes required to offtank.. again he didn't care about meters

We had a Boomkin who would sometimes have to help out with healing.. again she only cared about the progression of the guild

People say these specs aren't viable, and sure none of these topped meters, or were main tanking, but did they care? the 3% spell crit aura may not have increased total raid dps, but was it really the end of the world to lose a slight bit of dps? Remember that druid also brought an extra combat res and innervate, as well as the ability to switch to help healing should it be needed. That Prot Paly bought an extra buff, and was able to throw in a few heals

People are so hell bent on changing the original game, when they already have a modified game available in the form of Retail WoW....
Let them cry and hope,that Blizzard will never listen to them. But they will not change the game and that is 99.9% true,I believe in them now. Who cares if some classes weren't viable in classic? That's how a true mmo game should be like. You can't just simply play with every spec.These people have never experienced classic WoW,just don't even argue with them.
No changes thx.
So hybrids were meant to not be able and become efficient being a support + damage dealer while in a raid situation?

Or was this an unintended result of all the parts that played a role in how this came to be?

If u could help me out, please.
15/05/2018 18:34Posted by Lapislazuli
So hybrids were meant to not be able and become efficient being a support + damage dealer while in a raid situation?

Or was this an unintended result of all the parts that played a role in how this came to be?

If u could help me out, please.


Hybrids were efficient and versatile in raids there was always space for a few hybrids in a raid despite what people say, i’m pretty sure even the top guilds had hybrid classes!
Just because they don’t top meters doesn’t make them useless, just the same as not being able to main tank is also not useless. An awful lot of bosses in Classic have adds to tank and most guilds will pay respec costs for hybrids to change specs if a boss requires them to play a certain way
15/05/2018 18:48Posted by Mordaine
15/05/2018 18:34Posted by Lapislazuli
So hybrids were meant to not be able and become efficient being a support + damage dealer while in a raid situation?

Or was this an unintended result of all the parts that played a role in how this came to be?

If u could help me out, please.


Hybrids were efficient and versatile in raids there was always space for a few hybrids in a raid despite what people say, i’m pretty sure even the top guilds had hybrid classes!
Just because they don’t top meters doesn’t make them useless, just the same as not being able to main tank is also not useless. An awful lot of bosses in Classic have adds to tank and most guilds will pay respec costs for hybrids to change specs if a boss requires them to play a certain way


That's kind of the whole point with hybrid classes and has been like that since they were introduced into the mmorpg genre.

Hybrids are jack of all trades, masters of none.

They're good but they'll never be as good a DPS as for example a mage, or a tank as good as the warrior or a healer as good as a priest.

Sadly though, Blizzard has changed most of that and based the hybrid classes around whiny kids who can't stand the thought of the class they play to be worse than a pure DPS/Healer/Tank class.

Look at other mmorpgs from the old days. Warriors were tanks, Priests were healers, hybrid classes brought versatility in the form of support buffs and some healing, and it made sense to those who played back then.

Newer expansions brings with them a younger and newer generation of gamers who aren't used to how these games or classes are intended to work, so they whine about every little thing. If they can't top the DPS meters on their priest, pala, shaman or druid they throw a temper tantrum befitting a 5 year old on the forums (Waa waa why can't my priest do the same or MORE dmg than the mage waa waa/ Waa waa my druid should heal as much or more than the priest waa waa/nerf x class because i can't kill it on my priest/druid/shaman/paladin and its unfair waa waa) and it's only getting worse. Unfortunately, the devs started catering more to said whiners than the vets who've been supporting the game since the start..

Classes should be as they were when the game originally released. There shouldn't be any sort of class balanced tweaks from the start whatsoever. If people want LFG/LFR, class balance patches etc, they should stick to retail and leave Classic alone. If they want to try it out, that's fine but whiners can stick a fork in it, and crawl back to their welfare epic distribution simulator which is retail wow.
Just one word full of thought.

Cat.

xD
I would much rather say that the system of hybrids is strongly based on interpretation.
If you look at the reality, the game does not consist of tank, heal and DD, but also of support.

And even if support is not an independent role in the sense that it is part of modern role selection tools, it is still an equal role.
The problem here I see in the following point:
The retribution paladin is considered a hybrid, because the class "paladin" can theoretically take on all roles (if one would look at a template sheet).

The rogue or the mage, on the other hand, are not considered hybrids because they do not have the ability to heal or tank.
The problem here, however, is that rogues and mages, for example, are not regarded as hybrids simply because an interpretation of what a hybrid is does not allow this conclusion.

However, if one compares individual skills, one could also describe those classes as hybrids that are not commonly considered to be hybrids. After all, they also have enormous support skills. These do not even have to be present directly in the form of abilities.
It is perfectly sufficient if special skills predestine a class for certain tasks.
If it is necessary to kite an opponent, it is not enough to be a good DD. One must then also have the ability to perform this task well.
The same with CC and other special tasks.

One should therefore not look at how many "roles" a class can exercise in the classical tripartite structure, but should instead compare individual skills and qualifications.
And if you do that, the so-called "hybrids" are somewhat inferior to the so-called "pure DDs".

Take the rogue's CC, speed, invisibility, and trap-destroy ability. Then its increased DMG is justified in comparison to a so-called "hybrid".
Currently, the support value of the so-called "pure DDs" is absolutely undervalued. Maybe the so-called "hybrids" really do have the strongest support.
Then you have to compare the value of this support with the value of the support of a "pure DD". What remains in value is added together with the damage of the so-called "hybrid" and then compared with the damage of "pure DDs".

If you do that, the "pure DD" is still on top at the end.

In addition, there is a bitter realization: the support of the so-called "hybrids" is or can often be provided by a single representative of this specc or this class. This would mean that a second representative of such a specc or class would be superfluous in terms of support value.
Damage, on the other hand, is never superfluous. So the so-called "pure DDs" also have a massive advantage here. They simply do not lose value the more of them there are.
15/05/2018 21:51Posted by Fedan
I would much rather say that the system of hybrids is strongly based on interpretation.
If you look at the reality, the game does not consist of tank, heal and DD, but also of support.


As i said, hybrids are a jack of all trades, masters of none.

They bring (Or are meant to bring) support in form of buffs, off-heals and controll/Damage.

They were never meant to be 'masters of all trades', but whiners managed to get the devs to bend over and listen to their cries.

A wet-behind-the-ears 14 year old player: "Waaa waaa, i want my druid to be stronger than the warrior, able to heal more than the priest and be able to do more damage than other pure dps classes waa waa"

Blizzard: /pet - There there, we'll make sure to buff your class and nerf the other classes next expansion!

Next expansion arrives.

Still wet behind the ears but older player: "Waaa waaa, i want my paladin to do more damage than any other DPS class and i want to be able to tank better than the warrior, oh and waaa waaa i want to be able to heal more than every other class that can heal waaa waaa, uh waaa.."

Blizzard: /pet - Well now that the Druid is OP as hell, we'll make sure to nerf it and the other classes for you next expansion!

Rinse and repeat for almost a decade..

Ring a bell? No?

Well it should if you've played since the very start, because that's how all the 'class balancing' started, and thus ruined the thing that made a lot of us fall in love with the game. Class Uniqueness.
15/05/2018 14:11Posted by Cai
@OP.

let's pretend for second that they make class balance what you request.

now feral druid is almost able to do same damage as rogue, thus new meta is feral > rogue, no one wants rogue in raids because they do nearly the same DPS, but feral also brings : innervate, combat ress and extra healing if neccessary and ability to switch to offtank.

so now every elitist guild / streamer, their little follower puppets and their grandson is yelling "ROGUE NOT VIABLE ROGUE NOT VIABLE" even if it is.

aaaand then we are in the starting point, exept now vanilla is not vanilla anymore and game is messed up, and meta has changed.

and keep in mind, i'm only talking about raiding / endgame aspect, i havent even mentioned leveling and pvp, they are part of vanilla too, because hybrids are already powerful on those, they could become OP with buffs.


you obviously didn't even read or understood why i wrote in my post, yet you're drawing conclusions which are plainly wrong. who said they should buff damage to be on par with rogues?? i never said anything even remotely similar to that in my post. what can you say about TBC then? hybrids are viable, hybrids are required into any raid and hybrids cannot take on a pure damage dealer. feral for example, with BiS gear and powershifting does about 60-70% damage of that of a mage, warlock, hunter or rogue on a single target enemy (ferals have no AoE on either wow version, so it's the best kind of fight for them). yes, it's that big of a difference, yet ferals were played because they made the best off tank (and no, they weren't main tanks, warriors were still miles ahead) and because their aura was RELEVANT!!! that is NOT the case in vanilla. 3% crit is just too weak to even consider it. for example, druid is doing 300 dps on average single target boss in vanilla. a mage or a rogue (depends whether you're feral or balance) does 600 dps. let's say there are 4 mages or rogues inside that group. the total damage increase is 18 * 4 = 72 DPS - so that hybrid is doing 372 DPS total. bringing another mage instead of a druid would result in 228 DPS increase over that of a druid. very easy math and proof that either balance or feral aren't worth taking to the raid.

you mentioned leveling and wpvp? mage is on par with druids in terms of leveling speed. moreover, mages are kings of AoE farming, soloing stuff that isn't immune to slows and snares and it's the only class that can kill over 3 mobs in a pull without dying. in wpvp a mage is much more potent than a feral, with strong CC, slows, defensive cooldowns as well as damage and all of that while being ranged and top tier PVE class? sounds fair, right?

@Geronîmoo if you ever played TBC, you'd know what you're saying is completely false. won't even bother to quote what's wrong with that, but will just tell you to look up raid comps for 2.4.3 and healing or damage done by a druid. you'll see that they were never stronger than any DPS or shaman/priest healer. they brought utility and aura to the raid that were relevant. you can even look the entire raid comp of TBC and you'll see that ALL classes and ALL PVE specs were in any good raid group - that's class diversity, not filling 30+ raid slots with 4 classes.
15/05/2018 01:46Posted by Luminnar


"no class should be able to fulfill mutliple roles" - when it comes to that, one class is completely forgotten and negates that rule - WARRIOR. warriors are the best tanks and the best DPSers in the game. what happened to their "tax"? priests can only be healers in raids and the same goes for druids, shamans and paladins... but what about warriors? they don't have a healing spec, that's true, but they're the only class that can play two roles instead of only one.

taking a look into PVP aspect, again, the game was dominated by 3 classes: rogues, mages and warriors, while druids for example, were the worst PVP class in the game.

all in all as a druid only player, the class (along with paladins) simply sucked for EVERYTHING, with leveling being the only good thing, but even there they were surpassed by hunters and warlocks, being on par with mages.


not sure if you played the same classic that i did. there are so many things wrong with this observation, i might need to seperate stuff.

1- warriors. warriors were THE most logical choice but they werent the only ones. any spec whose tier fits their role is an obvious and prefered choice. but as a priest healer for about 70% of the vanilla i would almost always prefered a druid tank in dungeons over warriors, no hesitations. but for raiding, in terms of gear i wouldnt go for the druid as a raid leader since a druid tank will always be more difficult to gear than a warrior. as for their dps specs, well i think i explained it in previous sentence, GEARING UP. high dps but a questionable choice for progress due to gearing.
2- priests. yes, during the raid they had only one choice but some guilds prefered to have one shadow priest in their core for their passive healing. also could be preferable in high lvl dungeons where healing gets harder and harder to sustain. as for pvp well thats another topic. anyone who spent a decent amount of time in pvp would agree that shadow priests were a difficult class/spec to overcome especially in AB where they shined because of their potential.
3- paladins. they could only be healers because their other specs just couldnt fit. if you look at their spellbooks now, especially prot and retri, you ll see only a handful of abilities remained from vanilla, and some of them have been changed a lot. as most people would agree that blizzard spent so much time to get paladin where it is now, and the reason was that paladins didnt have enough abilities to make a difference (except holy). sure DI or BOP were always welcome but you have them in holy too.
4- PVP. no. rogues dominated because of their stealthy gameplay, that made them useful for capping an objective or surprising the opposite team. the real domination began when blizzard thought it would be a good idea to give them a spell immunity but in vanilla they were far from being dominant. warriors were only dominating when they had a healer behind them and the right gear to apply a serious pressure, which not all warriors had. as for mages, check again my friend. put a mage in a 1v1 situation against other cloth classes and they were getting obliterated embarassingly. as a both disc/holy hybrid and shadow in pvp i never had a hard time against mages. the only situation that mages were useful was a group skirmish due to their cc capabilities, you know, class lore? as for druids, show me another flag carrier in WSG who can steal the opposite team's flag, carry it, and safely return back to their team's protection WITHOUT a need for a healer. either you havent played vanilla or you were just starting to play the game back then.

all classes had an identity in the game back then. if you start cherry picking due to your false sense of injustice against the particular class that you chose to play you will simply break the game and it will turn into...well, the current state of the game, which is absolutely unenjoyable for me.
16/05/2018 04:26Posted by Karois
15/05/2018 01:46Posted by Luminnar


"no class should be able to fulfill mutliple roles" - when it comes to that, one class is completely forgotten and negates that rule - WARRIOR. warriors are the best tanks and the best DPSers in the game. what happened to their "tax"? priests can only be healers in raids and the same goes for druids, shamans and paladins... but what about warriors? they don't have a healing spec, that's true, but they're the only class that can play two roles instead of only one.

taking a look into PVP aspect, again, the game was dominated by 3 classes: rogues, mages and warriors, while druids for example, were the worst PVP class in the game.

all in all as a druid only player, the class (along with paladins) simply sucked for EVERYTHING, with leveling being the only good thing, but even there they were surpassed by hunters and warlocks, being on par with mages.


not sure if you played the same classic that i did. there are so many things wrong with this observation, i might need to seperate stuff.

1- warriors. warriors were THE most logical choice but they werent the only ones. any spec whose tier fits their role is an obvious and prefered choice. but as a priest healer for about 70% of the vanilla i would almost always prefered a druid tank in dungeons over warriors, no hesitations. but for raiding, in terms of gear i wouldnt go for the druid as a raid leader since a druid tank will always be more difficult to gear than a warrior. as for their dps specs, well i think i explained it in previous sentence, GEARING UP. high dps but a questionable choice for progress due to gearing.
2- priests. yes, during the raid they had only one choice but some guilds prefered to have one shadow priest in their core for their passive healing. also could be preferable in high lvl dungeons where healing gets harder and harder to sustain. as for pvp well thats another topic. anyone who spent a decent amount of time in pvp would agree that shadow priests were a difficult class/spec to overcome especially in AB where they shined because of their potential.
3- paladins. they could only be healers because their other specs just couldnt fit. if you look at their spellbooks now, especially prot and retri, you ll see only a handful of abilities remained from vanilla, and some of them have been changed a lot. as most people would agree that blizzard spent so much time to get paladin where it is now, and the reason was that paladins didnt have enough abilities to make a difference (except holy). sure DI or BOP were always welcome but you have them in holy too.
4- PVP. no. rogues dominated because of their stealthy gameplay, that made them useful for capping an objective or surprising the opposite team. the real domination began when blizzard thought it would be a good idea to give them a spell immunity but in vanilla they were far from being dominant. warriors were only dominating when they had a healer behind them and the right gear to apply a serious pressure, which not all warriors had. as for mages, check again my friend. put a mage in a 1v1 situation against other cloth classes and they were getting obliterated embarassingly. as a both disc/holy hybrid and shadow in pvp i never had a hard time against mages. the only situation that mages were useful was a group skirmish due to their cc capabilities, you know, class lore? as for druids, show me another flag carrier in WSG who can steal the opposite team's flag, carry it, and safely return back to their team's protection WITHOUT a need for a healer. either you havent played vanilla or you were just starting to play the game back then.

all classes had an identity in the game back then. if you start cherry picking due to your false sense of injustice against the particular class that you chose to play you will simply break the game and it will turn into...well, the current state of the game, which is absolutely unenjoyable for me.


false sense of injustice? i think class distributions on vanilla servers and polls say enough. people will still choose the 4 classes i mentioned over the others (e.g. there are the same amount of warriors as there are shamans, paladins and druids COMBINED) and that has nothing to do with "maybe they like the class, you know? just like how i like my warrior!", but with class tiers and class tiers only. people want to PLAY the game and be part of every bit of it, therefore rolling a class they know will unlock their way into raids and do well in pvp. about pvp, you mentioned one BG. ONE BG... for druids... and trying to justify they're good in pvp based on that? idk if i said, but i don't even like BGs. i love wpvp and i want to raid, but there would be no spot for my class is all what i'm saying, other than playing a subpar healer and hope the guild doesn't invite a second druid - yeah, i can serve as an OT too (...sometimes). also i did play classic, but on nostalrius and i played a druid and a mage on 60.

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