Class balance changes and why

Classic Discussion
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16/05/2018 04:03Posted by Luminnar
you obviously didn't even read or understood why i wrote in my post, yet you're drawing conclusions which are plainly wrong


and you obviously didn't read either.

i used example to illustrate my point, never claimed "this is what you demanded to the letter".

never i said feral is put on par with rogues, i wrote that feral's does nearly the same damage as rogue.

but seeing you are triggered af, let me try to explain my point without examples.

there is viable, unviable, optimal and sub-optimal specs.

all specs are viable in vanilla, many is sub-optimal, i used feral on my example because they are perfect example, feral is closest sub-optimal spec that comes closest being optimal spec. However that doesn't help feral to come even any closer being more or equally played spec than rogue, because powershifting or not, feral is sub-optimal spec and rogue has optimal spec.

thus my point : shifting meta, By making sub-optimal spec optimal ( and thus,what used to be optimal becomes sub-optimal spec automaticly ) alters meta, rogue for example is now least played class in vanilla and feral for example is most played because meta has shifted, it doesn't matter is rogue viable or not, the fact it's sub-optimal makes it least played class.

and if you only slightly buff sub-optimal spec, meaning you don't shift current meta, then this doesn't help to increase sub-optimal class player base, it's still sub-optimal spec / class and is still least played class / spec in vanilla.

TL:DR :

optimal specs are always overpopulated, sub-optimal is always least played, no matter what.
I don't understand, first Blizzard says "Hey guys, we're giving you Vanilla again! hurray", and then we're discussing something that clearly should not be discussed, since the point is to revive the game that died. This is not WoW2.

I wonder what passed through the Community Managers's minds back then when they said "it's a discussion worth having". It's definitely not worth having, we want vanilla, not an abomination.
16/05/2018 04:45Posted by Luminnar
false sense of injustice? i think class distributions on vanilla servers and polls say enough. people will still choose the 4 classes i mentioned over the others (e.g. there are the same amount of warriors as there are shamans, paladins and druids COMBINED) and that has nothing to do with "maybe they like the class, you know? just like how i like my warrior!", but with class tiers and class tiers only. people want to PLAY the game and be part of every bit of it, therefore rolling a class they know will unlock their way into raids and do well in pvp. about pvp, you mentioned one BG. ONE BG... for druids... and trying to justify they're good in pvp based on that? idk if i said, but i don't even like BGs. i love wpvp and i want to raid, but there would be no spot for my class is all what i'm saying, other than playing a subpar healer and hope the guild doesn't invite a second druid - yeah, i can serve as an OT too (...sometimes). also i did play classic, but on nostalrius and i played a druid and a mage on 60.


If you played on nost you didn't play classic aka the original game, period. Don't even go there.

You're just like any other Pserver player who base your entire experience around them because you don't know anything else.

Pservers use patch 1.12 which is far from how the original game was. It had all the class revamps and all the content and that is why your opinions are moot. You don't know how for example the druid was like before the revamp in patch 1.8 or the paladin before the patch in 1.9 because you never experienced the game prior to said patches.

Cross realm battlegrounds weren't in the game before patch 1.12 either, which is one of the things that made a lot of people quit. We were content with fighting the other faction members from our own server. It was enjoyable. Fighting an army of questionmarks and having to sit there reading russian in the BG chat all day, or being insulted by people from PVP realms who have no idea what tactics means and for trying to win using specific tactics? no thanks.

Bug fixes are fine, i can live with those and i'm sure other nochangers can as well, but adding in everything and skipping every patch to get to the end is not gonna make WoW Classic, classic or anywhere close to the original game.
16/05/2018 08:58Posted by Geronîmoo
Pservers use patch 1.12 which is far from how the original game was.
1.12.x is/was still the final state the game was in before TBC and thus Vanilla.

It's gonna end at 1.12.x whatever you do.
I think some changes can be possible, but not in first 2 years after launch and maybe never.
16/05/2018 09:58Posted by Grandit
I think some changes can be possible, but not in first 2 years after launch and maybe never.

Even tho i'd like to see changes, I'm not sure if it's best to have them start with it.
Let us first enjoy what was and if after ~2 years there is still the player base + animo for these changes/additions then there could be new discussions about them.

I hope NOchange Defenders can live with that idea.
All this just because an Oomkin wants to top the metters, you people are tiresome as hell.

Fury warriors became a thing in massive numbers just in Pservers, which of course will carry into Classic. Yet again the rare thing regardind Fwarriors is that in real vanilla only a handfull of raids would allow a "tank class" to roll for a leather item or even mail for that matter. Reason being gear was so scarse, I swear god I already hate being in the loot council when it comes to decide between the 12 rogues/warriors for that single sword.

Either way point is, fwarriors are a rare exception that sink in the community just because they trully can be the best dpsers ingame. But again, you can see nowdays the only con of the spec. Difficult as hell to gear up. Same issue would happen with oomkins, their tier is for healing nothing else. Thus they need to farm specific items (most of them BIS) rolling against mages and warlocks, just great. Oh yeah, add in Ele Shammans in the Horde and why not. Smite Priests and Tank Priests. Oh and Shockadins too, why not also melee hunters you will then laugh about all loot is hunter loot.

How to also forget about the biggest cry babies of all time, aka ret pallies, prot pallies and pallies in general. Guess we need to also remake all the item stats and add new ones just so this warriors of light can carry us through 40mans. Oh yeah, that also reminds me, is not fair Warlocks can only tank one boss or Shamman tanks aren't viable... for Christ sake, stop it.

And don't bring me the bs that is only mage players or whatever not wanting changes. I'm a hunter main, I love my rol of being a kiter, pulling certain mobs, tranq and such. Toping the metters is others rol and that's the almost the only thing they bring to the raid.

Every class was great in PvP btw, specially hybrids. Hunters laugh at rogues, Spriest laugh at everyone, Warlocks and ele shammies are fearsome, feral druids are great PvP classes and you also see them in raids in 1.12.0 because talents AND GEAR enables them without taking it from other classes.
If Classic is a static game then it won't get updates or balance passes.
If Blizzard eventually decides to make new content for it because it's a huge success, then it will get balance passes.

Do I like warriors having 3 top tier specs while other classes barely have 1 ? No.
But I'll still play it.
I'm just curious but i will ask anyway.Why people are so contradictory?Do you want a proper classic game or not?Because from what i read the community is split.But to have the game the same as it was back then there must not be any changes to it.It does not matter how small it can be.It can follow the patch sycle it but nothing else than that.Otherwise it won't be the Vanila.

Even a small change can have a huge impact on the game play.
ITT: people not reading posts and fighting strawmen.

Noone here asked to buff classes to the WotLK state (feral/ret doing the same damage as every pure dps class).

People asked to make hybrids viable, because they're mostly not. Not because of their low damage, but because the support their provide does not offset their low damage.

Balance druid - not viable.
Feral druid - viable if you put 10 times as much effort, and ends up being mediocre.
Shadow priest - viable after ZG as 1-of.
Elemental shaman - not viable.
Enhancement shaman - borderline viable, can be used as an autoattacker for Nightfall, but that's it (it can be another class anyway).
Prot paladin - not viable.
Ret paladin - not viable except for perhaps Naxx (heard of that, never seen).

In TBC, they all are viable in terms that their total output makes them worth. Not dps! Total output!

While it'd require to change everything about the game, which won't happen, as buffed classes would require much harder content, if they were seriously considering developing Vanilla as a second branch of WoW, these changes would improve the game.
16/05/2018 09:44Posted by Shogath
16/05/2018 08:58Posted by Geronîmoo
Pservers use patch 1.12 which is far from how the original game was.
1.12.x is/was still the final state the game was in before TBC and thus Vanilla.

It's gonna end at 1.12.x whatever you do.


Which is also the point and key word being 'final'.

If we want to play the game as it was, it has to be starting at the release patch. It wouldn't be a classic experience if it didn't.

Bug fixes can be added for sure, but adding all the contents on release makes no sense if you want the actual classic experience.

In fact, it would turn most people, including myself, away from Classic if they start out at 1.12.

It should start at release patch, then they need to bring out content patches at the same rate or slower than back then.

Whatever happens after they add the final patch 1.12? I don't care. It's the whole process of going through the patches from start to finish that i'm interested in as that was the actual experience we all shared back then no matter what you say.
16/05/2018 11:59Posted by Geronîmoo
Which is also the point and key word being 'final'.


and your own point, points that 1.12 is vanilla.

brilliant.

you want to experience all patches, that's great, not everyone shares your point of view, instead wants the most perfected version of vanilla.

16/05/2018 11:59Posted by Geronîmoo
In fact, it would turn most people, including myself, away from Classic if they start out at 1.12.


and having to deal 1.1 with very poor mechanics that was later on fixed, is also going to turn most people away, so i quess it's a lose lose situation.
16/05/2018 11:59Posted by Geronîmoo
If we want to play the game as it was, it has to be starting at the release patch. It wouldn't be a classic experience if it didn't.
Oh right... because the only way to have a Classic experience is in the last minute of a 2 year patch cycle....hilarious.

Vanilla was about 1-60 ... not about a handfull of instances that were put there to keep your cash coming in.
16/05/2018 12:13Posted by Cai
and having to deal 1.1 with very poor mechanics that was later on fixed, is also going to turn most people away, so i quess it's a lose lose situation.


As i also mentioned, which to be honest i am starting to get tired of having to repeat myself on these forums because you folks lack the necessary reading skills.

16/05/2018 11:59Posted by Geronîmoo
Bug fixes can be added for sure, but adding all the contents on release makes no sense if you want the actual classic experience.


I sincerely hope that sunk in this time.

16/05/2018 12:30Posted by Shogath
Oh right... because the only way to have a Classic experience is in the last minute of a 2 year patch cycle....hilarious.

Vanilla was about 1-60 ... not about a handfull of instances that were put there to keep your cash coming in.


In vanilla it wasn't about getting from 1 to 60, but the journey getting there, and from 60 the journey to clear content released in patches, where you'd clear content in one patch and prepare for the next content patch.

But who am i kidding, right? Talking to you folks on this forum is like bashing your head against a brick wall. The only thing you end up with is a major headache.

Toodles!
16/05/2018 12:35Posted by Якякяк
nostbabbies don't know anything about class balance in classic wow, they only saw it on their 1.12 pirate funserver with mangos emulator


This statement gets throw around here a lot. Can you list a few major differences between a server like Nostalrius and the real game? Because this idea that private servers are all byggy funservers is getting old.

I played from Closed US beta all through the end of 1.12, and I have played on all the major Vanilla servers. Cant honestly say I have noticed any differences that are large enough to warrant calling the servers anything but a Blizzlike emulation.
16/05/2018 15:24Posted by Flexidia
16/05/2018 12:35Posted by Якякяк
nostbabbies don't know anything about class balance in classic wow, they only saw it on their 1.12 pirate funserver with mangos emulator


This statement gets throw around here a lot. Can you list a few major differences between a server like Nostalrius and the real game? Because this idea that private servers are all byggy funservers is getting old.


That guy is a troll, but not entirely wrong here. Mangos, which all vanilla servers are based on, is not vanilla-like in many ways.

It doesn't even have a spell queue/batching system, and that alone changes how the game plays quite a lot. It's 1.12 from the start, which obviously makes the game not-vanilla until naxx. There are also various other little things that don't work quite like they did in vanilla, like some spells have wrong coefficients, some mechanics don't quite work as they really did, or just use a state they had at one point in vanilla, and in terms of scripts it's also often wrong.

Edit: If blizzard would release as 1:1 vanilla like server that starts at 1.12 like private servers do, it would still be "non blizzlike" in some ways for people who only ever played nost. Let alone if they'd actually do patch progression.
See, this is exactly what I am talking about when people start saying Pservers are not like the officials. They simply do not know what they are talking about as they obviously have not actually played said servers, but repeat what they have heard.

No serious server runs stock Mangos. The spell batch system is very much working on any server I have played on, thus mages can poly each other and rogues can both open on eachother with Cheap Shot.

I am also asking for specifics, because just stating that "coeffcients are different" without actually pointing to any specific case where this is true, is not very helpful.

Now I am not saying you are entirely wrong, because emulating a game of this size is a major undertaking. Especially considering how poorly documented a lot of Vanilla actually is it stands to reason that not everything is entirely accurate. But its not very useful to state that "stuff dont work as intended" without being able to point to any evidence of how it actually did work.

The pserver community have for the most part done an excellent job of documenting as much as vanilla as possible using any source available. Old forum posts, analyzing old videos etc etc.

Anyway, before this post gets too long I'd like to get to the point. Which is that while mechanics certainly are not 100% accurate in every single way, the game is emulated close enough that calling a server like Lights Hope for a funserver is entirely inaccurate. You would have to look very hard to find any instance in which a part of the emulated game differs from the real thing in any meaningful way.
16/05/2018 16:32Posted by Flexidia
You would have to look very hard to find any instance in which a part of the emulated game differs from the real thing in any meaningful way.

https://youtu.be/tX65FOyWCiY?t=6m9s

Yep totally intended. Two weeks from server start? C'mon.
16/05/2018 17:03Posted by Crighten
16/05/2018 16:32Posted by Flexidia
You would have to look very hard to find any instance in which a part of the emulated game differs from the real thing in any meaningful way.

https://youtu.be/tX65FOyWCiY?t=6m9s

Yep totally intended. Two weeks from server start? C'mon.


Ok. So a guild composed of top notch players having spent over a decade theorycrafting the best way to maximize the performance of their characters kill Ragnaros after two weeks.

How does this have anything to do with private servers? Or let me rephrase. Why do you think this would not be possible on an actual classic realm? As far as I can see, you made no attempt to explain what this video is supposed to show.

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