Class balance changes and why

Classic Discussion
Prev 1 4 5 6 8 Next
15/05/2018 13:18Posted by Mordaine
I’ll paste the response i’ve just added to another thread

Hybrid classes, aren’t or shouldn’t be intended to be top dps, or the best tanks, they brought versatility and buffs to a party/raid

Boomkins gave casters a 3% crit aura? Prot palas could offtank boss mobs or large groups of mobs, and enhance shamans could do some decent dps and provided buffs for melee players or am i wrong?

All people care about is topping meters why not think about how your spec can help the team? 40 man raids were a team effort, having a rogue top the dps meters should be intended, but just because that rogue is pushing amazing dps out doesn’t mean he gets the most credit on a kill! They cannot heal, bring very little in the way of buffs/debuffs and don’t have the versatility of a feral druid. An enhance shaman with the Nightfall Axe and totems will greatly enhance a raids overall dps, so yes they are a viable spec and will be able to progress in raids, and if i remember enhance shamans were also pretty good for PvP!

Class diversity gave a place in a raid for all classes and specs, and class diversity has been lost in retail, multiple classes now have interrupts and CC and kiting abilities they never used to have and even most buffs have been removed so you can almost essentially run a raid without planning any sort of class balance in a raid

In short, its a team game not for individuals to get depressed because they get out dps’d, just enjoy your class for what it is and what it can bring to benefit your team, and if thats not enough for you, roll a pure class rather than a hybrid class?

/clap
16/05/2018 08:58Posted by Geronîmoo
If you played on nost you didn't play classic aka the original game, period. Don't even go there.

Well most people want classic to be like nost did and do not want progressive patches.

What do you think is going to change / be better?

16/05/2018 15:54Posted by Erurqtrziu
It doesn't even have a spell queue/batching system, and that alone changes how the game plays quite a lot.

"Changes a lot" Yeah sure, private servers feel like playing tetris, not like classic at all.
17/05/2018 21:32Posted by Ypung
So you are telling me 40 ppl lvled to 60 - did the MC tuning questchain - farmed the FR gear needed for raggy (fairly sure its very much needed in the first kill of him) - farmed to revered (i think) with Hydraxian Waterlords to get Eternal Quintessence that 8.. ish ppl need cuz it has a 1h long CD in 2 weeks??

And its possible because they all know the shortcuts and nothing about the above was changed at all plus they are all uber pro at it?

Yhea read some of the comments of that clip (just so you get the feel of that hunters "uber pro" gameplay")and also you just ignored the glaring flaw that they got the kill cuz he bugged up.... kinda the point that was made from the get go.


i think you missed the point.

point is : ragnaros is going to be killed as soon as it's humanly possible, and difficulty level of ragnaros is not going to even slow down hardcore guilds, because it's easy boss, and it's going to be killed way sooner than in real vanilla.

whatever barrier can be skipped By insane unhealthy grinding, will be passed ASAP.

if there was bug in Private server, obviously no one is asking to have the same bug in classic....

the way some people measure is it vanilla experience is wrong, some people state "ragnaros killed in 2 weeks ! NOT VANILLA, in vanilla it took 2months to kill ragnaros" is plain wrong, the way you do it is right, if there is bug that shouldn't be there, then obviously it needs to be fixed.
17/05/2018 21:32Posted by Ypung
So you are telling me 40 ppl lvled to 60 - did the MC tuning questchain - farmed the FR gear needed for raggy (fairly sure its very much needed in the first kill of him) - farmed to revered (i think) with Hydraxian Waterlords to get Eternal Quintessence that 8.. ish ppl need cuz it has a 1h long CD in 2 weeks??

And its possible because they all know the shortcuts and nothing about the above was changed at all plus they are all uber pro at it?

Yhea read some of the comments of that clip (just so you get the feel of that hunters "uber pro" gameplay")and also you just ignored the glaring flaw that they got the kill cuz he bugged up.... kinda the point that was made from the get go.


I average 6-8 /played days of nolife leveling to 60. This can be done even faster but I am not that efficient at it.

You only need some people to farm to Honoured Hydraxian.

It does help a lot to have some FR gear on the TANKS ONLY, but there is also a buff in UBRS that u can get to give 70 FR to the whole raid.

Then you get fully buffed players.

Let's be generous and assume that no flask recipes have dropped yet and review a few of the base consumables for each class

Elixir of the Mongoose: 25 agi + 2% crit
Greater Arcane Elixir: 35 spell damage
Greater Fire Protection Potion: absorbs 1950 - 3250 fire damage

With this sort of prep, it is very very doable to get a 2 - 3 week MC first clear.

Also everyone can thank me later, i've just dispensed a bit of vague knowledge for you guys. I won't give you the finer details and i've also left out a few pro-tips ofc ^^
17/05/2018 22:15Posted by Kagemoth
With this sort of prep, it is very very doable to get a 2 - 3 week MC first clear.
But what about the poor saps with jobs, SO's, kids and otherwise not the ability to nolife it? Or are those who are so affectionally referred to as filthy casuals? :p
17/05/2018 22:04Posted by Cai
the way some people measure is it vanilla experience is wrong, some people state "ragnaros killed in 2 weeks ! NOT VANILLA, in vanilla it took 2months to kill ragnaros" is plain wrong,
That is indeed wrong, but people forget that we know sooooo much more now than we did back then, so obviously it's not comparable.
it is different time now, and it will be hard to form 40 man raids, ppl won't be able to be so hardcore like back in the days, different lifestyle and everything, so if you'll have to go with 15-20 man in raid how many enh/ele/spriest/feral/boomkin/ret will you take, 1,2,3 ? you will end up either playing alone or with bunch of other dominant classes, and how long do you think it will last? I will personally create character just to experience leveling as it was back then, nothing else since i won't be able to compete in raids as enh sham, and i don't like the idea of being "forced" to play one role for example resto sham in pve content. so it goes 1 or 2 months for me, and i bet there will be a lot ppl like me , so where will all you #nochangers end up after few months of classic when hype ends and ppl return to present version of wow where they will be able to play anything theywant? have fun.
17/05/2018 22:15Posted by Kagemoth
I average 6-8 /played days of nolife leveling to 60.


In vanilla or Pserver? Cuz thats kinda the claim isent it, that those dont have the same exp values that vanilla did.

17/05/2018 22:15Posted by Kagemoth
You only need some people to farm to Honoured Hydraxian.


I kinda said that?

And again you ignored the buggy part of the encounter and fairly sure it was not the only one that they had during the lvling, farm, rep grind, gear grind, clearing and even abilities not working as they should... its even mentioned in that clip by the hunter that posted it.
18/05/2018 01:38Posted by Volkire
it is different time now, and it will be hard to form 40 man raids, ppl won't be able to be so hardcore like back in the days, different lifestyle and everything, so if you'll have to go with 15-20 man in raid how many enh/ele/spriest/feral/boomkin/ret will you take, 1,2,3 ? you will end up either playing alone or with bunch of other dominant classes, and how long do you think it will last? I will personally create character just to experience leveling as it was back then, nothing else since i won't be able to compete in raids as enh sham, and i don't like the idea of being "forced" to play one role for example resto sham in pve content. so it goes 1 or 2 months for me, and i bet there will be a lot ppl like me , so where will all you #nochangers end up after few months of classic when hype ends and ppl return to present version of wow where they will be able to play anything theywant? have fun.


the thing is: you cannot even take all these class specs in a single raid due to debuff slots. i dislike the idea of being forced into a certain spec too, especially since i hate healing, but that part is not to change. if the idea of no change remains, my gf and i are also ones of those who will only play classic for the experience of leveling to 60 - there's just nothing else we can do. i know chances are slim, but i really do hope blizzard will recreate TBC as well after vanilla and it's simply a far more balanced version of wow, yet as hard as vanilla (with pve being 10x more challenging and diverse) on top of being considered as vanilla+, due to content that was scheduled and cancelled for vanilla, being created on TBC. needless to say, we're currently enjoying it on a private server that has a about 10k+ online players and whatever people say about wpvp being dead - they're wrong - and all popular zones are basically battlegrounds during peak times, arenas and BG queues popping within single digit of seconds and so on. but yeah, that's still a private server, with cash shop, increased xp rate, bots and cannot replace blizzard's version.
18/05/2018 04:45Posted by Ypung
17/05/2018 22:15Posted by Kagemoth
I average 6-8 /played days of nolife leveling to 60.


In vanilla or Pserver? Cuz thats kinda the claim isent it, that those dont have the same exp values that vanilla did.

17/05/2018 22:15Posted by Kagemoth
You only need some people to farm to Honoured Hydraxian.


I kinda said that?

And again you ignored the buggy part of the encounter and fairly sure it was not the only one that they had during the lvling, farm, rep grind, gear grind, clearing and even abilities not working as they should... its even mentioned in that clip by the hunter that posted it.


The fastest recorded time to 60 in ACTUAL VANILLA was 4 days 20 hours by Joana. So your point about different xp rates for private servers (I have not seen evidence of this btw) is moot.
17/05/2018 21:32Posted by Ypung
So you are telling me 40 ppl lvled to 60 - did the MC tuning questchain - farmed the FR gear needed for raggy (fairly sure its very much needed in the first kill of him) - farmed to revered (i think) with Hydraxian Waterlords to get Eternal Quintessence that 8.. ish ppl need cuz it has a 1h long CD in 2 weeks??

And its possible because they all know the shortcuts and nothing about the above was changed at all plus they are all uber pro at it?

Yhea read some of the comments of that clip (just so you get the feel of that hunters "uber pro" gameplay")and also you just ignored the glaring flaw that they got the kill cuz he bugged up.... kinda the point that was made from the get go.


Yes.

These players when getting ahead of the curve level to 60 in about 5 days played. That is plenty of time left over to farm enough preraid items to do MC.

The quest chain? Come on man, dont be absurd. The attunement is to click on a rock inside BRD near the MC portal. At 60 with an invis pot you can get there solo in 5 minutes.

FIre res? Go inside Blackrock Spire, mindcontrol one of the first mobs there and have it buff the whole raid with 70 Fire Res. With some Greater Fire Protection Potions (which you can farm uncontested at this point in the game) and some basic FR gear on tanks it is more than enough to kill Ragnaros just because of the sheer output of DPS/Healers are so much higher than you would have seen in 2005.
Again, this is a product of players being better and knowing what they are doing.

The Hydraxian Waterlords rep? Go to Silithus with a raid and kill elementals there for rep until honored. Its not difficult. As long as one person has the rep he can be summoned back and forth between Azshara and MC to douse the runes. Btw, there is no cooldown on the single use quintessence. Only on the eternal.

As for the so called "buggy" video. I watched it. I saw nothing there that would indicate they got the kill because of a bug. GRIZZLY is not exactly the most liked guild on that server, and all the negative posts can just as easily be attributed to guild rivalry more than anything.
However I am open to change my mind if anyone can point out what was bugged in the video and how it made a big enough difference that the boss would not have been killed without the bug.
18/05/2018 12:22Posted by Zintrix
The fastest recorded time to 60 in ACTUAL VANILLA was 4 days 20 hours by Joana. So your point about different xp rates for private servers (I have not seen evidence of this btw) is moot.


1.12 patch can however affect the speed it takes to level compared to 1.1

not only because of talents and class balance fixes, but also because of leveling content, i'm not sure how many zones was unfinished during 1.1, but as far as i understand 1.1 didn't have all leveling content intact.
18/05/2018 12:35Posted by Cai
18/05/2018 12:22Posted by Zintrix
The fastest recorded time to 60 in ACTUAL VANILLA was 4 days 20 hours by Joana. So your point about different xp rates for private servers (I have not seen evidence of this btw) is moot.


1.12 patch can however affect the speed it takes to level compared to 1.1

not only because of talents and class balance fixes, but also because of leveling content, i'm not sure how many zones was unfinished during 1.1, but as far as i understand 1.1 didn't have all leveling content intact.


I fail to see how this is relevant. The server runs the 1.12 client with 1.3 itemization. So while the actual difficulty is undoubtedly slighty easier than when the game first released I dont believe the difference is more than few days /played at most.
Even then, new servers opened throughout the lifespan of Vanilla, and is this really any different from a guild rerolling at a server opening near the end of Vanilla's lifecycle?

Nah. Its really not. Honestly though, I am not so sure why there's this horde of players on these forums desperately defending the difficulty of Vanilla. It was never a hard game. Find any old video from the early Ragnaros kills and you will see that nearly every single player is playing like complete dog!@#$ with overall gear a lot worse than what the players in the GRIZZLY video is wearing.

If those players still got the kill back then, then why is it so incredibly difficulty to believe that the boss can be killed in two weeks 12 years later? The only reason I can come up with is that old school players who have had no private server experience have this idea in their head that Vanilla was very difficult, because thats what their subjective experience of the game 12 years ago says. I understand. I thought the exact same thing 3 years ago before I tried Nostalrius. However you quickly realize when playing that the game's mechanics and design are simple enough that the only real progression block to MC is having 40 semi decent players attuned and two tanks with fire res gear.

Anyone who thinks the difference between the real deal and private servers is big enough that MC wont be cleared just as fast when real Classic comes out are deluding themselves.
18/05/2018 01:38Posted by Volkire
you will end up either playing alone or with bunch of other dominant classes, and how long do you think it will last? I will personally create character just to experience leveling as it was back then, nothing else since i won't be able to compete in raids as enh sham, and i don't like the idea of being "forced" to play one role for example resto sham in pve content.
All of this is a nothingburger, unless you and/or the raid- guildleader are hardcore/elitist, kinda like many people are now in retail.

Not every class will be able to compete for epeen in regards to dps/healing (or tanking), so what? It's only a problem if you make it a problem. Will there be jerks (RLs/GLs) who make it a problem? Of course, it's gamers... online... of course there will be jerks, but as you say, you don't like the idea of being "forced" to play something you do not want to play. Solution? Play what you want to play and avoid the people who don't want to play with you. It worked back in the vanilla days, and it will work now in the classic days.

Obviously, the version of the game we're talking about here is old, and it's vastly different from the current game. Player mentality is for the most part also vastly different now, and that seems to be one of the biggest concerns. Maybe I'm just too optimistic (which in itself is weird for me) in thinking that those who will play Classic will actually enjoy playing it for what it is; Classic.

When you're raiding, you're raiding as a guild, not as 40 individuals. And that's the whole point... isn't it? That people together kill the big baddies, not that you as a character from the masterclass™ top dps/healing. Or? Sure, if you for some reason can't enjoy the game without stroking your own epeen, then Classic may not be for you, unless you roll a certain class/spec. But again, this will only be a problem if people make it a problem. Some guilds will of course be all about the server-first mentality, min/maxing their hearts out, and good for them if that's the way they enjoy the game. But if YOU don't like playing that way, don't play that way.

What will happen when we at some point in the near(?) future hear something from Blizzard about how they plan on these Classic servers to be like? Who knows. The same goes for what will happen when Classic is launched and people start raiding. Nobody knows. But I can't wait to find out. :)
18/05/2018 13:06Posted by Zintrix
The only reason I can come up with is that old school players who have had no private server experience have this idea in their head that Vanilla was very difficult, because thats what their subjective experience of the game 12 years ago says. I understand. I thought the exact same thing 3 years ago before I tried Nostalrius.
Playing the game back then is obviously not the same as playing the same version of that game now. Logically, it's impossible to return to Vanilla - either by joining a private server or when Classic at some point hits - and playing the game like you did back in the day.

I have no idea how many of these old school players with no private server experience will react to finally being able to play Classic, but it should go without saying, that if they only base their knowledge/experience on how the game - and themselves - was back then, considering that they all know a lot more now than they did then, they may find themselves agreeing with you. (Holy cow, that was a long sentence!)

But what is the point in arguing over all of this? Sure, it is the Internet, where no one agrees, but aren't we all here because we love, miss and are exited to play Classic? As someone else stated somewhere (I think in a YT-video), save the toxicity for the Barrens Chat.
18/05/2018 13:06Posted by Zintrix
I fail to see how this is relevant. The server runs the 1.12 client with 1.3 itemization. So while the actual difficulty is undoubtedly slighty easier than when the game first released I dont believe the difference is more than few days /played at most.Even then, new servers opened throughout the lifespan of Vanilla, and is this really any different from a guild rerolling at a server opening near the end of Vanilla's lifecycle?


oh, don't misunderstand me.

Just something that came up to my mind, that could affect leveling speed.

i agree that vanilla had, very easy raid content in modern standard, and that's part of why i like vanilla, i don't enjoy min / maxing, but just enjoying gametime with friends, playing the way i want to play.
Fair enough.
18/05/2018 12:22Posted by Zintrix
The fastest recorded time to 60 in ACTUAL VANILLA was 4 days 20 hours by Joana


This is relevant how?
1. Just because you say it ill not take it as a fact.
2. Even if true you assume the other 39 does the same within that timeframe?
3. The other guy that stated 6-8 days (again i dont take this as an actual fact that he does this) that leaves 8-6 days for rep grind (that only a few needs to do this does not negate that its needed non the less). Then add whatever proff, mat, gold, gear grind aswell.

Sure you could split up coordinate as to who does what but you guys seem to think that the lvl grind is all there is to it and the rest isent time consuming at all?

Btw when does the trash in MC stop giving rep when killed? Was it at honored or revered? Honnestly dont remember.

Tbh i just skimmed throu the responses as im sure you do the same, so i might have missed the response on the buggy rag kill.
18/05/2018 14:02Posted by Ypung
18/05/2018 12:22Posted by Zintrix
The fastest recorded time to 60 in ACTUAL VANILLA was 4 days 20 hours by Joana


This is relevant how?
1. Just because you say it ill not take it as a fact.
2. Even if true you assume the other 39 does the same within that timeframe?
3. The other guy that stated 6-8 days (again i dont take this as an actual fact that he does this) that leaves 8-6 days for rep grind (that only a few needs to do this does not negate that its needed non the less). Then add whatever proff, mat, gold, gear grind aswell.

Sure you could split up coordinate as to who does what but you guys seem to think that the lvl grind is all there is to it and the rest isent time consuming at all?

Btw when does the trash in MC stop giving rep when killed? Was it at honored or revered? Honnestly dont remember.

Tbh i just skimmed throu the responses as im sure you do the same, so i might have missed the response on the buggy rag kill.


#1
You are joking right? Its relevant because it prove that two weeks is more than enough to get 60 and raid ready. And since it apparantly was too complicated to do a simple google search to confirm a well know fact, I did it for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL49Ga_-r7iKkxrbckm9CkUhWzxqrOnw-n&v=mJaQJw1Wf2s

#2
Out of a server with ten thousand players leveling as fast as they can, 40 players getting 60 in under two weeks is not a mystery. Guilds on these servers also have a tendency to soak up all the first 60's regardless of wether or not they have any prior connections to the guild, and players leveling this fast are almost always above average players.

#3
You are greatly overestimating the time it takes to farm up enough gear and consumables. If you know exactly which items give you the most benefit, and you form 5man parties to run the specific bosses dropping these items over and over for a couple days the entire raid will have enough gear to do MC with no problem.
Consumbles is a non issue. It only takes 1-2 guys to level herbalism on uncontested nodes and you have all the consumables the guild require.

When you say "Sure you could split up coordinate as to who does what" I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say. A guild that wants to clear MC first on the server will do exactly this. It's not rocket science.

When the trash in MC stop giving rep has nothing at all to do with anything we are discussing, so its pointless of you to bring it up.

As for the last part of your post, its just a pointless projection. Just because you skim through the posts here does not mean that I do.
18/05/2018 14:02Posted by Ypung
18/05/2018 12:22Posted by Zintrix
The fastest recorded time to 60 in ACTUAL VANILLA was 4 days 20 hours by Joana


This is relevant how?
1. Just because you say it ill not take it as a fact.
2. Even if true you assume the other 39 does the same within that timeframe?
3. The other guy that stated 6-8 days (again i dont take this as an actual fact that he does this) that leaves 8-6 days for rep grind (that only a few needs to do this does not negate that its needed non the less). Then add whatever proff, mat, gold, gear grind aswell.

Sure you could split up coordinate as to who does what but you guys seem to think that the lvl grind is all there is to it and the rest isent time consuming at all?

Btw when does the trash in MC stop giving rep when killed? Was it at honored or revered? Honnestly dont remember.

Tbh i just skimmed throu the responses as im sure you do the same, so i might have missed the response on the buggy rag kill.


Look pal. I'm not attacking you, I am just giving you advice. Flexidia went and even filled in some of the blank spaces were I wanted to be vague so you could discover it for yourself...

I'm only telling you the way it is and that you shouldn't be surprised when this happens on live.

This stuff is also why Vanilla will feel absolutely amazing to a lot of players. The fact that there is SO much knowledge out there if you are willing to look for it. Using this knowledge and combating others with it aswell.

17/05/2018 22:15Posted by Kagemoth
With this sort of prep, it is very very doable to get a 2 - 3 week MC first clear.
But what about the poor saps with jobs, SO's, kids and otherwise not the ability to nolife it? Or are those who are so affectionally referred to as filthy casuals? :p


Why should a filthy casual get a realm/world first? Why should a fat neckbeard who doesn't exercise get a gold medal at the Olympics?

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum