Class balance changes and why

Classic Discussion
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The game is in part so great because of all the exclusivity, not despite it. When you buy the game you have the same starting point as everyone else, but what you want to do with that is up to you.

If the game tried to cater to the lowest common denominator to make sure every person with a tight schedule and 20 minutes a day to play could do anything the game has to offer, the game would feel bland and boring as a result.
18/05/2018 17:09Posted by Flexidia
The game is in part so great because of all the exclusivity, not despite it. When you buy the game you have the same starting point as everyone else, but what you want to do with that is up to you.

If the game tried to cater to the lowest common denominator to make sure every person with a tight schedule and 20 minutes a day to play could do anything the game has to offer, the game would feel bland and boring as a result.


This is so damn true.

Back on topic:
Class balance changes are dumb. Nothing should be touched outside of what was already in Vanilla.
18/05/2018 17:33Posted by Kagemoth

Back on topic:
Class balance changes are dumb. Nothing should be touched outside of what was already in Vanilla.


+1
18/05/2018 19:58Posted by Karois
18/05/2018 17:33Posted by Kagemoth

Back on topic:
Class balance changes are dumb. Nothing should be touched outside of what was already in Vanilla.


+1


+2
15/05/2018 10:45Posted by Trelonicus
This could ruin the balance way too much. E.G. TBC shadow priests helped with mana starve, therefore they could have a bit too much of impact with attrition fights. They'd have to rebalance the entire game around it.

I would not mind playing Vanilla with TBC-like balance. This way the game would be "new" and feel more unknown to us instead of being researched on for a decade. I dislike the fact that hybrids were underpowered in Vanilla, Blizzard clearly intended them to be hybrid (e.g. moonkin aura), but they were too weak to justify inclusion. But let's be real, we won't get anything but Vanilla balance.

Totaly wrong.
Hybrids just were hybrids. They were strong being universal. For example paladin in preraid content could damage and then situationaly start healing not long but he could and it saved party many many times. In raid they had best buffs and could heal for years unlike all other healers. If you played any RPG you would know that hybrids always can't do more damage/heal/tank than any pure class but on other hand they have damage+heal+tank at the same time unlike pure class. Warrior who agroed too many mobs can't just press buble+heal to full health - he just dies. And so on.
And changers like you or topic starter just wants to destroy balance making the game like it is now - everyone can heal+tank+damage at the same time. Every class are a hybrid now and just some classes are not full hybrid and for example can heal onlt themselves and others are full. And that what I hate in actual wow and why I wait classic.
17/05/2018 22:15Posted by Kagemoth
17/05/2018 21:32Posted by Ypung
So you are telling me 40 ppl lvled to 60 - did the MC tuning questchain - farmed the FR gear needed for raggy (fairly sure its very much needed in the first kill of him) - farmed to revered (i think) with Hydraxian Waterlords to get Eternal Quintessence that 8.. ish ppl need cuz it has a 1h long CD in 2 weeks??

And its possible because they all know the shortcuts and nothing about the above was changed at all plus they are all uber pro at it?

Yhea read some of the comments of that clip (just so you get the feel of that hunters "uber pro" gameplay")and also you just ignored the glaring flaw that they got the kill cuz he bugged up.... kinda the point that was made from the get go.


I average 6-8 /played days of nolife leveling to 60. This can be done even faster but I am not that efficient at it.

You only need some people to farm to Honoured Hydraxian.

It does help a lot to have some FR gear on the TANKS ONLY, but there is also a buff in UBRS that u can get to give 70 FR to the whole raid.

Then you get fully buffed players.

Let's be generous and assume that no flask recipes have dropped yet and review a few of the base consumables for each class

Elixir of the Mongoose: 25 agi + 2% crit
Greater Arcane Elixir: 35 spell damage
Greater Fire Protection Potion: absorbs 1950 - 3250 fire damage

With this sort of prep, it is very very doable to get a 2 - 3 week MC first clear.

Also everyone can thank me later, i've just dispensed a bit of vague knowledge for you guys. I won't give you the finer details and i've also left out a few pro-tips ofc ^^

When I leveled my warrior in vanila it toke me 19 days /played (now it is possible to level a bit faster, but warrior still a warrior and he can't easily kill more then 1 mob at ont time). So may be you with your hunter (because only hunter can level up so fast) will do it so fast, but then good luck in killing ragnaros withous warriors.
Next. How do you want to farm full fire resist gear on 2 tanks in 2 weeks? You will not have enough reagents for that and there will be noone who could sell them to you.
Next. Do you realy think that it is so easy to form a 40 men no life raid with right classes? It will take you a month jus to finaly create something that looks like static raid roster.
Next. You still need farm with your whole raid blue items from pre raid content. And in classic to clear UBRS you had to waste nearaly 4 hours. Because you needed 3 tanks and 15 men in total and it was not easy to find them and then to clear full dungeon without leavers. And you still had a little chance to get item you need. So it will take months to get a preraid gear and I want to remind you that at start of vanila there was no ZulGurub, no tier 0.5 gear. Nothing. Just green and blue items that must be hard farmed in not easy dungeons.

And again - I want to remind you it is not a new game it is relaunch of an old one. There will be nearaly zero total nolifers and so you will not be able to do all the things needed to kill ragna not even close to 2 weeks.
18/05/2018 20:42Posted by Ллаит
17/05/2018 22:15Posted by Kagemoth
...

I average 6-8 /played days of nolife leveling to 60. This can be done even faster but I am not that efficient at it.

You only need some people to farm to Honoured Hydraxian.

It does help a lot to have some FR gear on the TANKS ONLY, but there is also a buff in UBRS that u can get to give 70 FR to the whole raid.

Then you get fully buffed players.

Let's be generous and assume that no flask recipes have dropped yet and review a few of the base consumables for each class

Elixir of the Mongoose: 25 agi + 2% crit
Greater Arcane Elixir: 35 spell damage
Greater Fire Protection Potion: absorbs 1950 - 3250 fire damage

With this sort of prep, it is very very doable to get a 2 - 3 week MC first clear.

Also everyone can thank me later, i've just dispensed a bit of vague knowledge for you guys. I won't give you the finer details and i've also left out a few pro-tips ofc ^^

When I leveled my warrior in vanila it toke me 19 days /played (now it is possible to level a bit faster, but warrior still a warrior and he can't easily kill more then 1 mob at ont time). So may be you with your hunter (because only hunter can level up so fast) will do it so fast, but then good luck in killing ragnaros withous warriors.
Next. How do you want to farm full fire resist gear on 2 tanks in 2 weeks? You will not have enough reagents for that and there will be noone who could sell them to you.
Next. Do you realy think that it is so easy to form a 40 men no life raid with right classes? It will take you a month jus to finaly create something that looks like static raid roster.
Next. You still need farm with your whole raid blue items from pre raid content. And in classic to clear UBRS you had to waste nearaly 4 hours. Because you needed 3 tanks and 15 men in total and it was not easy to find them and then to clear full dungeon without leavers. And you still had a little chance to get item you need. So it will take months to get a preraid gear and I want to remind you that at start of vanila there was no ZulGurub, no tier 0.5 gear. Nothing. Just green and blue items that must be hard farmed in not easy dungeons.

And again - I want to remind you it is not a new game it is relaunch of an old one. There will be nearaly zero total nolifers and so you will not be able to do all the things needed to kill ragna not even close to 2 weeks.


I already said in one of my previous posts that you won't have to believe me. The proof will be when the game launches.

I have already given u all a lot of advice. Take from it what you will but understand that nerds will be nerds and this statement here:

"There will be nearaly zero total nolifers and so you will not be able to do all the things needed to kill ragna not even close to 2 weeks."

is probably the biggest lie you could be telling yourself.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

I average 6-8 /played days of nolife leveling to 60. This can be done even faster but I am not that efficient at it.

You only need some people to farm to Honoured Hydraxian.

It does help a lot to have some FR gear on the TANKS ONLY, but there is also a buff in UBRS that u can get to give 70 FR to the whole raid.

Then you get fully buffed players.

Let's be generous and assume that no flask recipes have dropped yet and review a few of the base consumables for each class

Elixir of the Mongoose: 25 agi + 2% crit
Greater Arcane Elixir: 35 spell damage
Greater Fire Protection Potion: absorbs 1950 - 3250 fire damage

With this sort of prep, it is very very doable to get a 2 - 3 week MC first clear.

Also everyone can thank me later, i've just dispensed a bit of vague knowledge for you guys. I won't give you the finer details and i've also left out a few pro-tips ofc ^^

When I leveled my warrior in vanila it toke me 19 days /played (now it is possible to level a bit faster, but warrior still a warrior and he can't easily kill more then 1 mob at ont time). So may be you with your hunter (because only hunter can level up so fast) will do it so fast, but then good luck in killing ragnaros withous warriors.
Next. How do you want to farm full fire resist gear on 2 tanks in 2 weeks? You will not have enough reagents for that and there will be noone who could sell them to you.
Next. Do you realy think that it is so easy to form a 40 men no life raid with right classes? It will take you a month jus to finaly create something that looks like static raid roster.
Next. You still need farm with your whole raid blue items from pre raid content. And in classic to clear UBRS you had to waste nearaly 4 hours. Because you needed 3 tanks and 15 men in total and it was not easy to find them and then to clear full dungeon without leavers. And you still had a little chance to get item you need. So it will take months to get a preraid gear and I want to remind you that at start of vanila there was no ZulGurub, no tier 0.5 gear. Nothing. Just green and blue items that must be hard farmed in not easy dungeons.

And again - I want to remind you it is not a new game it is relaunch of an old one. There will be nearaly zero total nolifers and so you will not be able to do all the things needed to kill ragna not even close to 2 weeks.


??? What a load of bull!@#$.

Just because everyone sucked at leveling in Vanilla does not mean warriors will take 19 days played to level. All classes can level at a decent rate if they know what they are doing. (Warriors using hamstring and kiting between auto attacks will drastically reduce downtime f.ex)

You can farm all the fire res gear you need from green and blue dungeon drops. The craftable fire res gear from Thorium Brotherhood is a nice addition for later to make it easier to gear up, but its not hard without it. You already gain 60 fire res from totem/aura, and additionally 27 from improved mark of the wild. That means you already have 87 fire resist. Add in two green rings with +20 fire resist, the BRD bracers with +10, +7 fire res enchant on cloak, Gyth's Skull of Fire Resistance from UBRS and some additional items with stam/fire res, Stratholme belt with +20 etc etc and you easily reach 315 Fire Res.
Its even easier if you have a feral Druid, as they can wear a lot more items with fire res (like the Volcanic set) while still retaining a high stamina to soak up the damage.

UBRS dont take 4 hours. More like 30 minutes if you go with a coordinated guild. Which is a really good time investment when you consider that the dungeon drop the preraid bis trinket for all casters, tank shield for warriors, the preraid bis melee dps weapons, and a wide variety of overall good gear for any class.

You dont need full preraid bis either to clear MC. Consider that back then, the T0 set was what everyone were using despite the set not having really any stats to boost your healing/damage output. Just getting a few more +spellpower items on everyone in the raid will make the raid a lot stronger than any raid that went into MC in the early days.

A full guild will ofcourse use something like this list here, and focus their efforts on farming as many of these items as they can before trying MC, which really wont take long to do with a full guild running 5mans all day.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1j81TgG0p_HrYKajiUiQfYIoSUx1culzy2u_Fc4wtiS8/edit#gid=366316127

Your entire post reeks of you trying to remember how your vanilla experience was 12 years ago, and projecting that experience upon todays gamers. Its not going to be the same, because the game is fully understood this time around.
18/05/2018 20:29Posted by Ллаит
Totaly wrong.
Hybrids just were hybrids. They were strong being universal. For example paladin in preraid content could damage and then situationaly start healing not long but he could and it saved party many many times. In raid they had best buffs and could heal for years unlike all other healers. If you played any RPG you would know that hybrids always can't do more damage/heal/tank than any pure class but on other hand they have damage+heal+tank at the same time unlike pure class. Warrior who agroed too many mobs can't just press buble+heal to full health - he just dies. And so on.
And changers like you or topic starter just wants to destroy balance making the game like it is now - everyone can heal+tank+damage at the same time. Every class are a hybrid now and just some classes are not full hybrid and for example can heal onlt themselves and others are full. And that what I hate in actual wow and why I wait classic.

You obviously didn't read my post.
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17619242237?page=3#post-50
18/05/2018 23:18Posted by Trelonicus

You obviously didn't read my post.
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17619242237?page=3#post-50


No.

You ARE wrong.

All specs are viable. But expect to have to find a guild that accepts YOUR choice.

Also ... specs not viable? Allow me to show you the ultimate hybrid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQwH0atQZ0Q&t

yeah, lets BUFF this ... it's SO weak. How do you even buff this without making it OP.

Face it m8. There are no BAD specs, just less optimal ones. The players asking for buffs and changes are just bad. git gud and know ur limitations.
18/05/2018 23:29Posted by Kagemoth
18/05/2018 23:18Posted by Trelonicus

You obviously didn't read my post.
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17619242237?page=3#post-50


No.

You ARE wrong.

All specs are viable. But expect to have to find a guild that accepts YOUR choice.

Also ... specs not viable? Allow me to show you the ultimate hybrid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQwH0atQZ0Q&t

yeah, lets BUFF this ... it's SO weak. How do you even buff this without making it OP.

Face it m8. There are no BAD specs, just less optimal ones. The players asking for buffs and changes are just bad. git gud and know ur limitations.


you're basing this on a video where a druid is killing fresh 60s or 1v1ing geared people that don't know their class at all. you can find anyone who has some decent gear and class knowledge and see it for yourself - e.g Drakova is owning ferals without losing even 10% of HP and maintaining full mana - granted, i don't think these druids shown in that video were good, but he did the same vs rank 13 ones as well and just because the druid in that video is killing green geared with barely 3k HP, does not mean druids are good.

anyway, buffing starfire for balance (not necessarily raw damage, but damage done in succession for example that stacks up to 3x, reducing mana cost), buffing defense and threat for feral so it can be used in PVE. besides, whatever druid can do in that video, a mage and rogue can do better - especially when it comes to killing fresh 60s without them having engineering or not knowing their class. there are dozens of videos proving this and with far more opponents at the same time. fights also end way more quickly, since both rogue and mage can 2-3 shot greens
19/05/2018 03:58Posted by Luminnar
18/05/2018 23:29Posted by Kagemoth
...

No.

You ARE wrong.

All specs are viable. But expect to have to find a guild that accepts YOUR choice.

Also ... specs not viable? Allow me to show you the ultimate hybrid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQwH0atQZ0Q&t

yeah, lets BUFF this ... it's SO weak. How do you even buff this without making it OP.

Face it m8. There are no BAD specs, just less optimal ones. The players asking for buffs and changes are just bad. git gud and know ur limitations.


you're basing this on a video where a druid is killing fresh 60s or 1v1ing geared people that don't know their class at all. you can find anyone who has some decent gear and class knowledge and see it for yourself - e.g Drakova is owning ferals without losing even 10% of HP and maintaining full mana - granted, i don't think these druids shown in that video were good, but he did the same vs rank 13 ones as well and just because the druid in that video is killing green geared with barely 3k HP, does not mean druids are good.

anyway, buffing starfire for balance (not necessarily raw damage, but damage done in succession for example that stacks up to 3x, reducing mana cost), buffing defense and threat for feral so it can be used in PVE. besides, whatever druid can do in that video, a mage and rogue can do better - especially when it comes to killing fresh 60s without them having engineering or not knowing their class. there are dozens of videos proving this and with far more opponents at the same time. fights also end way more quickly, since both rogue and mage can 2-3 shot greens


In the first fight (where he isn't showcasing a big crit or a fancy juke/spellreflect) the mage he fights has a Felhat and a Elemental mage staff. It is safe to assume if he has these items he has some reasonable spellpower across his gear. He is also deep frost since he has Ice barrier.

In the 2nd fight he is fighting a warrior with a Zinrock and a mage who has the chest from ZG and Bloodcaller. It is safe to assume these players are pretty well epic geared.

in the 3rd fight he is fightinga prot tank and a rogue who has a Dal'rends MH and a brutality blade offhand.

in the 4th clip he is fighting a warlock who is wearing some tier two the head and the shoulders, he also has a staff of shadowflame.

.....

are you like, totally retarded or sumthing? Freshly dinged? He is also fighting multiple opponents... Look, i get it. Some of you guys really want to push buffs and changes on the classes you wana play. In the end though, it's just to mask your utter lack of skill at the game and ulitmately you just want to be OP.

All specs are Viable. Not all specs are optimal. Not all guilds will accept all specs. To the proChangers, git gud. Whenever I see a "change my class" post all I see is a terrible bad player who wants to look good without effort.
18/05/2018 23:18Posted by Trelonicus
18/05/2018 20:29Posted by Ллаит
Totaly wrong.
Hybrids just were hybrids. They were strong being universal. For example paladin in preraid content could damage and then situationaly start healing not long but he could and it saved party many many times. In raid they had best buffs and could heal for years unlike all other healers. If you played any RPG you would know that hybrids always can't do more damage/heal/tank than any pure class but on other hand they have damage+heal+tank at the same time unlike pure class. Warrior who agroed too many mobs can't just press buble+heal to full health - he just dies. And so on.
And changers like you or topic starter just wants to destroy balance making the game like it is now - everyone can heal+tank+damage at the same time. Every class are a hybrid now and just some classes are not full hybrid and for example can heal onlt themselves and others are full. And that what I hate in actual wow and why I wait classic.

You obviously didn't read my post.
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17619242237?page=3#post-50


and obviously you have already forgotten out little talk.

there is :

- viable specs
- unviable specs
- optimal specs
- sub-optimal specs

learn the difference please, before posting bull!@#$ in forums, and call sub-optimal specs sub-optimal, not unviable, thanks.

only specs that can be even considered unviable is specs that relies heavily on DoT skills, and even these only in raid PVE environment, even DoT skills have their use in PVP and dungeons.
There are balance what those people don't get about it?
Its all how its meant to be. Tank- dps- heal- support specs. Do not like healing or support, pick another class/spec. Its not like game will be designed for your wishes and needs, you have to adopt not the game.
To understand it clearer - if you played MOBA. Support classes supporting team, wards and other nice little thinks what you as a support can provide to your team to win. Its team play. I love healing and supporting my team, no problem.
If lets say retadin,druid (jack of all trades) will get dps buff, its wont be OP? Then all will run hybrids. There will be already tons of hybryds.
19/05/2018 13:29Posted by Evilanimals
There are balance what those people don't get about it?
Its all how its meant to be. Tank- dps- heal- support specs. Do not like healing or support, pick another class/spec. Its not like game will be designed for your wishes and needs, you have to adopt not the game.
To understand it clearer - if you played MOBA. Support classes supporting team, wards and other nice little thinks what you as a support can provide to your team to win. Its team play. I love healing and supporting my team, no problem.
If lets say retadin,druid (jack of all trades) will get dps buff, its wont be OP? Then all will run hybrids. There will be already tons of hybryds.


While I dont believe specs should be adjusted, it's not correct to say there are balance. The fact of the matter is that some specs just dont have the utility they should have had in order to make the spec workable. Retpaladins and Enhancement shaman are the two best example. Neither class do good sustained damage for PvE, and neither specs bring any utility you cant just get from bringing a Holy/Resto.

This is just the unfortunate consequence of Vanilla's original developers not really having a clear direction when designing the classes to begin with.
19/05/2018 13:59Posted by Flexidia
19/05/2018 13:29Posted by Evilanimals
There are balance what those people don't get about it?
Its all how its meant to be. Tank- dps- heal- support specs. Do not like healing or support, pick another class/spec. Its not like game will be designed for your wishes and needs, you have to adopt not the game.
To understand it clearer - if you played MOBA. Support classes supporting team, wards and other nice little thinks what you as a support can provide to your team to win. Its team play. I love healing and supporting my team, no problem.
If lets say retadin,druid (jack of all trades) will get dps buff, its wont be OP? Then all will run hybrids. There will be already tons of hybryds.


While I dont believe specs should be adjusted, it's not correct to say there are balance. The fact of the matter is that some specs just dont have the utility they should have had in order to make the spec workable. Retpaladins and Enhancement shaman are the two best example. Neither class do good sustained damage for PvE, and neither specs bring any utility you cant just get from bringing a Holy/Resto.

This is just the unfortunate consequence of Vanilla's original developers not really having a clear direction when designing the classes to begin with.


But Ench and retadins are good at other game situations? Why all specs should be balanced in pve? I you planning to do pve, just do not roll ench and retadin.
I would love to roll shadow priest for pve, if will boost their mana or dps they will be OP. Cos at PVP they are face melters already and would be full server with shadow priests.
But thats the thing. You assume all specs were designed to be viable for something. Which just isnt the case. Enhancement in particular is just not a good spec for anything. Too bursty and too low sustained damage for raid. Gets eaten alive by almost every other spec in the game for 1v1 given equal gear and skill, and has no additional utility that cannot be brought by the Elemental or Resto.

Retpaladin can be a strong PvP 1v1 spec, but you have no slows or gap closers to stay on your enemy, and no ranged ability (Hammer of Wrath is only usable on low health) unless you go engineering.

By the way, I am not saying all specs should be balanced for PvE, but Im not going to blindly defend the game either. Not all specs have a place in Vanilla, that is just the reality of the game.
Blizzard just never had the time or interest to fully develop every spec into something that would work, and that becomes clear when you look at stuff like how many of the Enhancement talents are geared towards tanking f.ex, despite the class having no talent to boost their armor to the level of a platewearer/Bear druid, and almost no usable tank gear for them to wear.

Shadow Priest is I would say a good example of how they should have made Hybrids. The spec works wonders for PvP, and while their damage is on the low end in a raid setting, their unique tools (15% shadow damage for Warlocks is huge) and an AoE healing ability for the party (Vampiric Embrace) make it more than worth it to bring a Shadow Priest for any content the game has to offer.
I played a druid and a shaman to 60 back then, and i'm still #nochanges
Views are subjective.
In view of people who like and understand Vanilla, classes are already balanced.

You don't want "class balance".
You wan't more specs for raiding outside of those that were available in Vanilla.
This changes the game completely.

Blizzard is re-releasing Classic for people who like the game the way it was and not for people that don't like and therefore want to change it.

Vanilla means Vanilla.
As a paladin main in vanilla .. i had to heal heal heal which !@#$ty heals and had to be a buffbot .. i still raided at first it was fun then it got boring and i dumped my paladin after raiding upto aq40 .. rerolled a rogue atleast i can have fun in both pve and pvp with this class.

Should make Ret/prot paladin viable should make Shadow priest more viable .. Enh/ele shamans should be viable .. why cant they? .. it doesnt take anything from your experience or are you %^-*!@ fury warriors afraid of Ret paladins taking all your dps gear?.

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