End of Legion: PvP Systems Feedback

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With Legion coming to a close we thought we might try something a little different and collect some specific feedback on things. We've now covered Mythic+, and Mythic Raiding so its time to change it up!

This week's topic is going to be about PVP Systems over the course of Legion. BUT WAIT. While its easy to lump class feedback into the umbrella of PVP that's not what we're looking for here. We're looking for feedback more centered on PVP's functioning systems. This includes things like gearing, Arena and Battleground maps, rewards, rating systems, etc.

Why the clarification to exclude Class Feedback?
This is because if we didn't this feedback post would be almost impossible to read or evaluate. Those types of issues are far better as one offs that we can evaluate within those situational examples.

Where is X topic?
Don't worry as we have a list of topics that we plan on going down and its probably on the list. Every week will be a new topic so just give us a moment and we'll get there.

What Topics have you covered already?
We've now covered Mythic+, and Mythic Raiding.

Also a friendly note that just because you see it here doesn't mean it will be changed or added - and this topic is not an indication of future feature development.
Scaling doesn't belong in an RPG.
Random gearing is garbage.

Winning whatever aspect of pvp, only to be rewarded with potentially your 6th identical trinket in a row is terrible design.

Not only that but potentially for whatever piece to be useless (since ilvl+ all thesedays) as you can open the map to complete a 30 second world quest for something better, makes the whole process pointless.

The template system is good in theory, but imo it should be customisable. Maybe with a slider on each stat, so say if i want to go full offensive stats and have low hp i can.

Basically in all, pvp just doesn't feel rewarding and has started to turn into a monotonous slugfest over nothing.
13/06/2018 13:56Posted by Eggs
Random gearing is garbage.

Winning whatever aspect of pvp, only to be rewarded with potentially your 6th identical trinket in a row is terrible design.

Not only that but potentially for whatever piece to be useless (since ilvl+ all thesedays) as you can open the map to complete a 30 second world quest for something better, makes the whole process pointless.

The template system is good in theory, but imo it should be customisable. Maybe with a slider on each stat, so say if i want to go full offensive stats and have low hp i can.

Basically in all, pvp just doesn't feel rewarding and has started to turn into a monotonous slugfest over nothing.

Absolutely. It's completely demoralising to do nothing but PvP for a week and end up with nothing for it.
Although im not PVP player, in previous expansions i dabbled in some PVP. In Legion nothing attracted me to do any instanced PVP.

PVP templates were horrible idea. Taking away ability from players to optimize their own stats was insulting.

Removal of PVP gear vendors was also a very bad idea.

Making prestige non account wide added another layer of FU to people that like to play alts

PVP world quests were also ridiculous idea. You could earn prestige and PVP rewards by not touching PVP
Templates in PvP were a bad decision. I can see no single reason to separate PvE and PvP aspects so hard in terms of gearing and gear influence on character power. After all, we're playing an RPG game with gear as the only progress factor after reaching level cap. Either let us decide what stats/stat distribution we wish to have in our template or remove this abomination and bring back PvP gearing. Equality and "ONLY SKILL MATTERZ!!1!" mindset belong in games like CS:GO and Dota 2.
PvP talent must go.
All that the posters above have already said.

Removal of PvP vendors and introduction of stat templates was a terrible idea.

PvP talents being greyed out while not in PvP combat was a bad idea too, glad that's fixed in BfA. Separating PvP and PvE doesn't feel right. Nothing wrong with needing to kill that one boss for a weapon to improve your stats.

Lack of any stat customization in PvP is boring, please change it. Some locks run haste some prefer mastery - let them decide by themselves (just an example).

Bring back PvP gear and remove stat templates. Its not so much about balance as it is about fun. Who cares about balanced game that isn't fun to play? It's good to sometimes be op and sometimes be the underdog. Nothing wrong with that.

Legion PvP felt boring and monotone. Prestige was a nice idea but being character locked made it annoying to farm.

For me personally the biggest minus for PvP in legion was the gearing system. I loved the old system when you join your first couple of bg's and you were weak but the gearing up part made you really get to know your class.

We need more and better rewards for reaching higher arena ratings.
Gear progression tied to rating as it was in Wotlk made me really try to improve.
In legion I felt like reaching 2k for elite transmog was enough.
BGs give jack all in terms of rewards, would be nice to make them even just a little bit more worthwhile.

Same with arena, you want to push for at least 2k, you basically get nothing if your'e any lower than that, and even then the rewards are just a mog set, a tabard and a glowy thing to slap on your weapon, all of which are a 'one and done'-kinda deal.

Which leads to..


Better parity between PvP rewards and PvE rewards. Even 3k rated players find it more worthwhile to do PvE for gearing purposes.
Also the trinkets PvP gives are rubbish in comparison to the ones you get in PvE, they feel understatted or something like that.


Mercenary mode feels very unpolished, it would be nice to get some QoL improvements on that while also polishing out some of the egregious bugs. Some I just can think of off the top of my head:

As far as QoL goes, would be nice if my horde specific mounts would dynamically switch to the corresponding alliance ones.
Same with active racials, they keep disappearing from bars.

As far as bugs go, enhancement shaman's bloodlust with Shamanism talent is basically unusable when BGing as a mercenary, it sometimes doesn't activate, it doesn't display cooldown properly and seems very inconsistent overall.

Also my priest has 2 sets of racials, human and belf.


Matchmaking in arena also feels weird, at least when you start capping on a character for the first time in the season. There's 10 games or so where you're matched against people way, way below your MMR.
Placement games are all fine and good, but could we have it made a bit clearer when we're doing a placement match of sorts?

Could we just get a more transparent matchmaking system in general? Kinda like what SC2 now has? Have stuff like MMR, MMR decay etc. visible.

Have the pvp ladder be shown more prominently in the game client itself, you managed to cram in a microtransaction store in the game client but not PvP leaderboards or a glad cutoff tool? Come on..
Interesting... Before I start I would just like to put this out there: (AllCraft PvP Summit)
if any dev's have not yet watched this yet, it's worth it because it has a lot of valid, valuable points about PvP systems/features in general.


Gear: I don't like random gear for PvP and I believe actual PvP gear should return to distinguish the difference between PvE and PvP gear, even though sets will no longer be a thing, I'm sure something could be done... even if that involved the return of resilience. Also, I believe it was much better when we were able to stack our points/badges to afford a new piece of PvP gear and when we were high enough rating, (including lower ratings, not just 2k+) we were able to buy a certain piece of improved gear, such as a more powerful weapon.

Scaling: I can't stand scaling of stats and ilvl in PvP. The skill gap between players is meaningless now, while in the past I used to argue "Scaling will highlight whose more skilled now that their stats & ilvl will be similar" but I was wrong, because the lesser skilled players don't have to put in much thought apart from trading cooldowns in competitive matches.

Stat Templates: Now I'm not sure if stat templates are carrying on into BFA, but I have to say, I don't like stat templates whatsoever - even though I was in favour of them at the beginning but when I finally experienced them, I noticed their flaws immediately. They destroy the whole point of progressing & getting better gear FOR its intended use; PvP. If lesser geared players get destroyed in Battlegrounds and Arena again, so be it! It'll just motivate me to want to gear up more!

Honor Talents: I dislike them, they feel sloppy because most of the talents are stripped abilities and base talents from previous expansions and it doesn't help when you don't get to use them outside of PvP instances/warmode because you think it "trivialises content," because a small few in Challenge Modes got an advantage on certain bosses with PvP abilities/spells, such as tremor totems and warrior's mass spell reflect - that's what made things interesting. It's not exactly game breaking to have such abilities and spells available to classes outside of instanced PvP.

Rewards: There definitely needs to be more incentive to PvP, even if it's purely cosmetic and I'm not talking about Gladiator+ type rewards, I'm talking about transmogs, titles, mounts, even much stronger gear that can be unlocked and bought with honor marks or conquest marks! (not RNG titanforged elite BS from winning matches)

I don't even see this happening but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

It would be cool if major city leaders/bosses were made much more stronger and difficult to reach and defeat, rather than simply flying/running in on your mounts and nuking with a full raid group. Due to all of the scaling over the past few expansions, city guards and world leaders have become... rather trivial.

I just feel they need to be more important in a PvP aspect, especially reward-wise, maybe with a new set of achievements for killing them all, unlocking an updated version of the war bear(?) and maybe an average Azerite currency reward along with, most importantly, a personal loot chance (yes, RNG, which is fine) of rewarding players with 1 piece of a unique, good looking transmog set, so that they feel inclined to do more runs until they gather the full set, making world pvp/city defense & offense much more alive than ever before.
bring back the old look for Glorious Tyranny (and the other lookalikes) it was actually something unique and whenever I saw it I would go like "DAMN I wish I had this!!" now when I see it I want to puke and that's coming from someone that will NEVER even have the enchant (same goes for Demonic Tyranny because it looks bad I don't have the incentive to go and get it) elite enchants should be something special same goes for the elite sets which are simply lazy recolours of PvE gear... in previous expansions like MoP you had specific-looking PvP gear and that should be brought back, not to mention the most amazing WoD Season 1 sets which are probably some of the most unique in the game right now because of how good they looked but you're apparently too lazy to do that work anymore for such a small community

scaling in PvP is garbage as someone already said, you're just making it easy for people who don't care about PvP to queue for it and ruin the game by not knowing what to do with scaling without it when someone with bad gear queues and he brings the team down at least you know that in a few games that person will be fully honor geared and he'll be useful because everyone starts from somewhere

PvP talents again as someone already mentioned are BAD some of them should just be baseline abilities instead of being locked behind choices

bring back Honor AND Conquest it was always nice to cap your conquest and finally get a piece of gear that you've been waiting for for maybe a week or two instead now you get some stupid item that you're never even gonna use because you can get a better one doing LFR lmfao absolutely disgusting

DO NOT REMOVE ASHRAN why would you remove something that is still going strong after 2 expansions? it's like removing Antorus because "hey it's old content guys we don't want people randomly going to some other planet and doing a raid!1" that's what you're doing with Ashran basically, NOBODY is forced to queue for it so it should absolutely stay in the game

oh yes also fix tanks in PvP especially RBGs it's ridiculous druids for example are just too broken when it comes to survivability imagine being a rogue and your job is to basically try to steal bases etc. and you are forced to face a raid boss on your own to do your job basically... just come on seriously... there's absolutely no chance you can 1v1 a tank in pvp and that shouldn't be the case DH tanks have way too broken mobility... Burst of Speed was nothing in comparison to them really

I'll edit this with more things if they come to mind but those were just on top of my head now
PvP stat templates - Not a fan of this system at all, just left a severe lack of customization imo, mainly on the secondary stat side of things. People could often gather multiple gear sets and run different stat setups into different comps with certain talent choices, this pretty much removed any min-maxing like that and it's just not fun having no control over your stats. If I want to go full haste, please just let me.

Gear system - Now I know this is being changed back to a conquest style system in BfA, but I don't understand why there aren't just vendors. From what we know there will be a piece of gear attached to the end of a conquest bar each week, so will the system be smart and work out which piece of gear could be the biggest upgrade for you or will they be set/random pieces?

Lets say I have il 350 legs but all of my other slots were 330-340, would the system automatically avoid giving me conquest legs until my other slots were at least close or equal to the same il as my 350 legs? Otherwise it could just lead to another RNG problem where you could get screwed because you happened to loot some legs from a raid/dungeon and your conquest bar also rewards some similar legs whilst your other slots are still in need of an upgrade.

I also think it was just generally cool to see PVP'ers hanging around the PVP vendors, especially after a weekly reset.

PVP Trinkets - Why can't we get procs from/use our on-use PVP trinkets in Legion? I can understand disabling certain PVE trinkets from arena but I don't understand why PVP based trinkets don't work at all in PVP, maybe it's just me but I feel like it's just another little bit of flavor lost. Good players could make us of this and line up their damage better when there was trinket procs you'd have to look out for.

May edit this and add more stuff but these are the first things that came to my head.
1) Make gear available with currency at a vendor and get rid of random procs
Make random bg reward you with 1/5 of the currency and RBG and Rated Arena with 100%, so that 1 RBG victory equals 5 random bg victories
2) put Resilience back into the game to reward pvp'ers in open pvp OR put the WoD system back in where pvp gears gets boosted to maximum pvp ilvl when you enter pvp or warmode
3) disable legendaries, trinkets, etc in open world pvp
4) give us back useful pvp talents
5) don't force pvp'ers into pve for gear
best expansion ever just copy paste everything over to bfa )
13/06/2018 14:38Posted by Spegeln
best expansion ever just copy paste everything over to bfa )

herpderp hehehe.
The reward structure, as mentioned before, feels unfulfilling. The effort/reward ratio for rated arena is completely out of touch with that of M+ and organised raiding.

The weekly item you get is both a random piece and with random stats, which both means that you often get nothing useful, leaving one less reason to get into rated PvP. Being able to obliterate those items offsets some of this, but doing this to several 940+ items only to get a 930 one in return with a chance to war/titanforge doesn't feel good.

There's still a great lack of cosmetic rewards for anyone below 2k rating too and when this is combined with lacklustre gear rewards there really is no extra reason for people to partake in that end of the bracket. Doing arena for fun is nice and all, but most players want to see some kind of reward for progressing and that just isn't there before you can grab the elite set.

Personally i'm also not sold on the templates due to the lack of customization. The only change seen to it is getting a higher ilvl for a corresponding % increase in overall stats.
There's no trying a haste oriented build for faster casts or a mastery oriented one for higher burst damage/healing. While i personally didn't feel like gearing the "old way" was much of a problem (only a week or two doing bg's to get the honor gear or arena for the cap) i can see why some disliked it, but leaving out any sort of customization leaves one less way of having an impact on your own gameplay.
I'd prefer if PvP and PvE gear aren't the same so that PvP gear is actually stronger in PvP than PvE gear so I have something to work on.
1) Tabard + Cloak + Enchant at 2200-2300-2400 are not enough. Need something better for higher ratings too.

1.1) Hottest Streak, 'Flawless Victor' from 10 wins in a row after 2k was removed in WOTLK. Why don't you add more of these things in the game?

1.2) Some 2v2 titles could very well be implemented.

2) 1700-1800-1900 needs to give some sense of progression to lower rated players too. Unlocking your legs-chest-helm-shoulders made great sense before and kept everyone going even on low ratings.

3) The first 1-50 honor talent grind needs to go. It would be a lot better if each Prestige rank gave +0,05 stats for example, or something along those lines. Prestige rewards mean nothing and I have zero intention to farm BGs forever to get a mount. Takes too long and there's too many good mounts in the game that can make up for the tedious farming.
The farming would make you feel as if you're progressing if you effectively had some benefit from it.
It could also make your talents stronger. Imagine if Prestige 20 would give my Light's Grace (the shield from my Holy Lights) 5,3% instead of 5% damage reduction. so I could have 16% with three stacks instead of 15%. I'd be happier to farm BGs if that was the case.

4) Gear ended up having a huge impact even if you said it wouldn't. A new character has 880 ilvl and it will have -7% stats compared to a Mythic Antorus geared one (pay attention: I said Mythic Antorus and not 2700-2800 PvP player). This is huge. The biggest it should ever be at is 3% difference.

5) Allow players to purchase the items they need instead of having to hope for the right one, and then obliterate 4 items to get one. It's too frustrating and RNG.


6) FOR THE LOVE OF GOD: increase healing and damage by 30%. Increase health pools by 15%. Reduce CDs effectiveness by 20%.
I HAVE TO USE Wings vs a feral druid using Incarnation else it's OVER! I CANNOT outplay him. Remove this damn CD trading meta. It's HORRIBLE. Make it a mix between Wotlk and Cataclysm.

6.1) With higher damage and healing, kicking a healer will make a difference. You won't need dampening anymore and double dps in 2v2 will make its comeback giving life to the ladder.

6.2) Remove 30 sec duration stuff. Incarnation lasts too long, same for wings and others.
Random BG matchmaking or brawls.

The matchmaking system needs polishing.
It's not fun joining a bg with 10dps vs 3 healers and 7dps. Or similar crazy setups.
It makes the game unplayable, and many players ends up leaving the game.
And the team with the disadvantage nearly always looses.

I will gladly wait a little longer to get a more fair game setup on both sides.
Gear rewards from PvP should be deterministic. I should be able to get currency and when I have enough of it, spend it on an item of my choice.

Stat Templates need to go, it removed a sense of customization.

PvPers shouldn't have to do PvE for good gear.

Trinkets and the like should be disabled in World PvP.

Oh and solo queue RBG would be nice ; )

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