End of Legion: PvP Systems Feedback

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I agree that it kinda feels useless to do pvp now that you dont need to gear for it, I miss resilience... never thought I would say that... :p

Also, a suggestion, would be to give us some kind of post-game-screen like you have in Heroes of the Storm, which you can disable if you feel its tedious.
Thanks for copy pasting a version to the EU forums , unlike the Mythic+ dungeon thread.
Keep up the good work!

What kind of feedback is Blizzard hoping to get?

It's an awful System and Legion PVP has been the worst period of PVP ever. We all know it. If Blizzard don't know this then your head is just buried in the sand and feedback is pointless. But I'm a disgruntled (believe it or not) fan of the game so I shall proceed to complain in hopes of a brighter future.

Scaled stats don't work in WoW. I want to play my Warlock, get a new staff, then queue into a BG and kill some lesser geared players with my cool new item. Or seeing how much closer to the better geared players my staff has gotten me whilst I have been one of the under-geared players being 1shot.
Why do you feel the need to control random BG's?

Despite your (hopefully not) best efforts to balance with the stat template system, which was the key selling point, the balance has not even been good. Not even remotely good.

Blizzard takes far too long to balance. This is true for all of your games. OW while at the peak dwindled in players because you refused to nerf Junkrat, Dva, Reins shield, etc. etc.
Same goes for HS, and of course WoW.

Now all three of those games are almost an embarrassment to say you play after a few weeks of a big update.

PVP talents are ok.
The honor system was better as currency for gear.

Class design is becoming so dull and simple PVP will be rock paper scissors. So regardless of what your 'PVP system' is, it will fail because the PVP combat is going to be trash.

Please don't take another 2 years to realise you're trying to make a horrible system work.
*PVP Gear Reforging System
*Update the look of some battlegrounds, AB, EOTS, Warsong.
*MVP system after each BG. ie. most heals, most dps, most kills, most bases capped etc, and then reward them with extra azerite or gear.
First of all I love how the honor is going to be account bound. But I somewhat no longer feel rewarded for all my hard work into getting my druid to prestige 25. If everything going to be combined then most people going to unlock everything.

Personally, I'd like to see a title awarded to those who reached prestige 25 before the end expansion at the very least similar to the warlock green fire "Of the black harvest" just to show that they was committed to pvp in legion.

I think everyone deserves, the toys, mounts, pets and artifact skins regardless and they shouldn't be kept from players who didn't have the time to reach max prestige. But I found the prestige grind similar to the mage tower. It was a challenge, it had dedication and time to put into it. And I hope in the end of it all I have something to show off for it.

I'm happy about the return of conquest points in battle for azeroth and the new battleground system where you can que big bg's separate so hyped for that !

The bounty system also looks amasing, but I'm not sure what the whole motivating will be on making people go into the warmode, if there is transmogs I'm sure that will get them in.

I kinda want it so the talent changing is made easier too! Like the equipment manager is a long feature on wow and it so fun to be able to be one click away to swap gear into dps to healer spec.

Now my suggestion is, talents+warmode talents manager! This means saving your talents from PvE, PvP, Single target and AoE having the player being able to have these saved would take soooo much time away at the start of arena's because one little forgetful mistake and you can be struggling to win the match.

It be nice to just have a a new feature with this new system to be able to instantly swap talents to saved trees ^^

Finally, I'd like to get a answer on how the PvP artifact skins (crests) will be earned in bfa.

Thanks for reading!
13/06/2018 15:12Posted by Ixenn
Thanks for copy pasting a version to the EU forums , unlike the Mythic+ dungeon thread.


Sorry I've been out on vacation over the past couple of weeks but I'm under the impression these threads were opened in both NA and EU? If one of these threads was missed I'd be happy to rectify it so we can get your feedback. :)

Are you referring to this one:
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17620081935

Or something else?
Might be a bit of unpopular opinion among some people but still:

The Template system is good, while pretty much eliminating Gear progression for PvP is a controversial move, i fully support how the template system has been used to balance classes.

As Elemental Shaman, i just adore it how tanky i have become solely due the Template System.
30% Versatility
50% Damage reduction via Armor
6M Hp.

That's a tough bone to chew on.

I don't have the same tools like a Mage to escape melees, but i can at least tank some damage (to a certain degree), Mages are in trouble if there's Warrior or Hunter on their back, i can tank them easily.

Before the template system, i always felt like that i was far too squishy against Melees and would just die the the lack of control tools, now i have something to compensate that weakness.
It really helped to support class fantasy in PvP without touching abilities.

I'm fine if your gear impacts your template more heavily than it currently does, but the overall system should stay, so it is easier to balance classes outside of just nerfing / buffing abilities.

Mobas do the same thing, they don't always buff / nerf abilities, they sometimes nerf the raw auto attack damage / armor / HP Reg / Stat gain and so forth to balance heroes, WoW never had an equivalent tool until the template system.

And another thing: Please have an updated sticky on the PvP Forum with current template, it is right now impossible to find out what kind of templates are active in PvP due multiple balance hotfixes over the course of legion.

If you google "Legion PvP Template overview" you basically get outdated Information or threads of people asking for an updated overview.
My feedback, as someone who played from day one in Legion and reached Prestige 25.

Ramdom Gear doesn't work in PvP. Players need an incentive to keep playing. Having a PvP vendor with cool gear that has nice stats to customize your hero is a much better system that ramdom loot boxes with Versatility stat sticks.

The Prestige Rewards in Legion were really lackluster. A battle pet as the first reward? Are pets a good incentive for PvP players? A tabard/transmog/mount would have been better. And we get 3 of basically the same toy...

Stat Templates: We need to customize our heroes with stats that fit our playstyle. Edit: Like Eggs said, maybe a slider can improve the Template system.
The template/scaling systems kept me invested and kept me coming back to PvP, enjoying it more on alts and generally having more fun. My gear is far and above good enough to hold my own if such a system were removed, however, I'd much prefer the current system to stay as it equalises the playing field, which is sometime I'm all for in BG's. One problem I do have with the template is the lack of customisation, not being able to push towards certain builds with gear.

On gearing, it was atrocious. The new BfA system is barely better, give us the vendors back, let us choose what we want to buy. Stop messing us about.

On Maps. Only 1 map in 5 years? Whew lad. Now with Strand Being removed, we've had basically the same amount of BGs for upwards of half a decade, it's not good enough, more needs to be done to add more Battlegrounds in. Brawls were fun but ultimately they're minor twists.
By far worst Xpac for PvP yet (my opinion ofc) for several reasons but the biggest has to be:

PvP Templates

they don't belong in a RPG and take away all kind of choice, progression, incentive and basically everything that made PvP fun in the past.

Right now it just feels soulless and that's why I haven't PvP'ed since Legion Season 3 , that and Class design being absolute trash too but that's off topic I guess.

Any kind of scaling aka noob protection doesn't belong in a RPG. If you get oneshotted in a BG you should be even more motivated to farm gear and become the guy who is oneshotting kids yourself instead of going to the forums and complain.
1. Merge PvP and PvE talents. PvP talents are mostly about mobility and control. Control does not work on bosses, so that won’t break your beloved PvE.

2. Rewards should be wanted. Noone gives a flying f. about 50 levels of bar slider. People like weapons, gear, mounts - something affecting their everyday gameplay.

3. Allow both templated and actual stats PvP with EQUAL rewards. When I am low-geared, I do templated. When I am confident in my gear, I play with people who also think that their gear is fine.

4. No random boxes.

5. Everyone should eventually be able to gear (get all rewards) regardless of skill, though some people will do it much faster. I cannot stress it enough! We need people playing PvP, rather than avoiding it, because they feel they are not good enough (it is not for them).

6. Make random grouping and add rating for it. As it stands now, searching for a team for dd takes forever. I literally spent hours refreshing PvP LFG to find a team to play in. None of the competitors has this problem. In League of legends I press ONE button, and I am in the game with the team of my level.
(1)Templates restrict customization.
It would be nice to be able to control our stats and customize our gameplay and style around it rather than the current templates.

(2)Prestige System
I thoroughly like the concept but not the execution of it. I know there are changes come BFA but currently it seems like there is a pushback? Prestige level 25 not landing around the same level when converted to the new Honor system, meaning we're having to go back over it and earn the same rewards we already have. Not fun.
The grind for talents at the beginning was not fun at all and very exclusionary, really deterred alts and newcomers from pvp but I've seen that this has changed.

(3)Prestige Rewards
Please for all that is good, stop giving us that recoloured unicorn, some of us really don't like it and it doesn't embody the pvp theme at all. Going forward in BFA I don't want a Legion style mount that I don't like, so giving us newer colors isn't going to change anything.
As for other rewards, I enjoyed the pennant and titles, but we really need newer things. More Cosmetics armor, enchants, tabards to use and different mounts that match the increasingly high levels of Prestige, something that screams high prestige level. Not crab pet with helmet for level 400.

(4)Why is all high-end rewards restricted to just 3v3?
It would be nice to be able get the enchant and titles from 2v2 rather than getting nothing for pushing anywhere past 2.2k in 2s. I understand the difference between the two but I never understood why 2s was completely stripped from it's high end competitive rewards.

(5)Gladiator Mounts, make them account-wide please, or atleast class-wide.
Mythic Raiders get their titles and mounts made account-wide, I know titles would cause trouble but atleast give us the mounts. I've got 2 glad mounts sitting on characters I'll probably never touch again, the time has been and gone, let me show them off.

(6)Justicar/Conquerer rep and tabards.
Please consider making the tabards and the title account wide. Farming that title for each character is beyond impossible when Arathi Basin and the like take what was years of effort to reach exalted. I don't want to do it on more characters when I've already reached the achievement.

)7)PVP Gear Reward
The gear received really was lackluster, it was low item level and poorly optimized. It also restricted pvp-focused individuals from getting involved in PVE, meaning that to gear our characters for PVP we were having to rely soley on PVE to get us prepared. PVE players can easily move into PVP, whereas PVP players have trouble moving into PVE due to poor gear, stats and as a result cannot do well in PVE due to no tier, no optimized stats for PVE, poor trinkets and the like.
This might be a bit offtopic, not sure, but the horrendous constant desync for PvP might be one of the worst 'features' in Legion.

I don't remember any big desynced or laggy opponents post-Wrath to this extent until Legion, so obviously something broke with Legion, would be nice to have that looked into properly.

edit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOwAj-_KRRM

I mean this stuff, it happens so consistently and is probably the biggest source of frustration for me bar none.
1.) PvP stat templates are just terrible, yes some limitations and balances need to be and allways have been but what we have now limits the way you want to play it way to much, if we cant choose gear stats in bfa then there needs to be another way to give us more choices on how and with who we want to play, maybe tabards that modify stats or something that way.

Pvp isnt much more balanced today than it was in the past (except having same ilvl) which simply means it cant and never will be fully balanced if there is a problem with a class change ability/trait and not stats(the way it worked until legion).

Alot of people want to farm gear the way it was before and i agree you do spend much more time in pvp not only on main but also on alts with such system, i personally dont mind but the rewards need to be much bigger ilvl than they are now and we should be able to customize our character much more than now.

2.) PVP ilvl needs to return for bfa world pvp (having in pvp combat higher ilvl than in pve), pve gear should never be able "faceroll" people who have pvp gear, if you want to wpvp spend some time farming pvp gear first. HC/Mythic gear should only be able to perform as good as pvp gear and not 1-2 shot everyone.

3.) We need much better in-game information on how are some abilities and traits working different in pvp (doing less dmg, CC duration, buff duration, ability effects - like warriors battle cry/pain train for 100% group crit which was nerfed to 30% but cant be seen anywhere) some CC abilities have that in tooltip but most abilities dont.
- Make PvP talents baseline, having separate talents for this part of the game just discourages people to play PvP is obvious legion has had the lowest PvP participation, have new PvP talents affect existing spells to help PvP none should add new abilities into the game confusing new entry players.
- Remove stat templates, sounded good on paper at first, it wasn't, take it back. This is an RPG - let us customize.
- Add in an MVP system in BGs - much like other games have, give rewards to players for completing the BGs well (fighting on objectives ect/most healing/flag caps) too promote playing the BG correctly (looking at all you rush mid stay mid people on EOTS..)
- Bring back gear vendors ! - i am yet to get a trinket above 925 ilvl playing the whole of S7 ... and you cant buy them with echos of battle ... WHY
- 6v6 RBGs - 10 man teams take WAY to long to form and most just leave after the first win/loss.
- FIX LFG - SOLOQ?! : in all seriousness if not soloq please update LFG tool .... why on earth why you cant sign up for groups as well as form a group is beyond stupid.

- ESPORTS : potentially unrelated but something seriously needs to be done in the department, tourney rewards are stupidly low in relation to other games, give incentives for viewership - maybe just abandon 3v3 and push for 6v6 bgs to be the main mode ? Think how much easier it would be too telegraph an objective based tourney to people not so familiar than someone getting and inturupt, I can picture the hype when a rogue would get a ninja cap off too win the game..
Legion was probably the worst experience when it comes to PvP (and I've played alot of classes)
Gearing was absolutely horrendous with all the RNG stacked on RNG involved (+ low item level) and also stat templates that removed every bit of customization from the game. Furthermore you didn't have a feeling of progression since we're talking about roughly 15% stat difference between the start and end of Legion.
PvP felt like an unfinished mini-game at best (which is why the majority of my long time PvP friends quit the game or went full PvE).
CC was kinda unevenly distributed with all the pruning. Burst damage was too high for the most part.
BGs and Skirmish basically had no rewards whatsoever (it's like you guys simply forgot to update them) which led to incredible queue times (5 min skirmish queue anyone?).
Honor Talent grind on every character was unnecessary (as well as getting the same prestige rewards over and over again).
Prestige rewards were mostly boring (same recolored mount with stupid animations that don't resemble a horse in any way + artifact skins with clipping issues).
For the average Joe there was no incentive besides getting to 2k every two seasons for the Elite mog (which sucked because you actually had to wait to get it).
Brawls are mostly good (except for the lagfest called Southshore vs Tarren Mill).
"Gearing up" through PvP is absolutely non-existent. Gear you get from PvP is usually too low level and therefore useless, especially from random BGs.
- i like the templates, makes it easier to try balance the game. those templates made me come back to this game, since i didnt feel the need to pve to be competitive in pvp. maybe give players some options to distribute those stats, via a slider or something, that would make ppl who miss choices feel better for sure.

- the incentives are awful, mainly gearing and rewards for average players. give ppl something for 1500, 1700, 1900, some transmog, some item, just to give them an incentive to play at all, since if you are new and not successful ratingwise, there is literally nothing keeping you going. to increase participation will with incentives might give arenas more participation again.

i played arenas in bc, wotlk and cata on decent ratings (up to gladiator) before i quit wow and sold my old account. legion is not that bad and i enjoyed it overall. i am looking forward to bfa's better gearing :)
Hi,
Hate having gear in random loot boxes - Please bring back currency vendors so we can choose what items to buy.

Remove stat templates, the gearing and getting more powerful as you progressed was part of the fun, everyone accepts that we would be weak at the start of a season until we acquired our gear.

Would like to see an option to "stay as team" at the end of random BGs.

Disable legendary & trinket items

Remove flying in warmode - yes I know this is a BFA thing but just a suggestion :-)

Thanks for listening.
PvP templates were handled poorly. I suggest the devs try Guild Wars 2 to see how to implement that system well.

For those that don't know: In GW2 a character of any level has to go into a 'pvp lobby', which is a separate phase of the game. In that phase, you get boosted to max. level with all spells & traits unlocked, and you can then further customize your build via talents AND a template of your choosing.

In WoW terms, it would mean that you'd be able to choose if you want f. example 20% crit, 40% mastery, 10% haste -- or 40% crit - 20% mastery - 10% haste -- or 10% crit, 50% mastery, 20% haste.

Something like this would make template system infinitely less half-arsed, because I do like the idea of gear difference being minimal in regards to pure damage. It's just the lack of customization that makes it feel horrid.

PvP gear -- here the problem lies in game design as a whole. There's simply too many item levels in the game, and getting rewarded with items WORSE than LFR for winning non-rated / low-to-mid rated PvP content is really, really discouraging.

Pacing, class design & tanks / healers -- Beginning of Legion did an amazing job bringing in quick, plentiful hotfixes; However, it really peetered out in the end to a point where things like affliction locks & mistweavers have been overpowered since p. much 7.2.

The overall class balance hasn't been the worst it's ever been, however, with how inflated item and power levels across the board had gotten mid-late Legion the pacing of PvP kind of broke. It was pretty fun at the beginning, but starting with the second raid tier we once more entered 'Either you kill someone in a stunlock or they get fully healed in seconds'. THERE NEEDS TO BE A BETTER CARE TAKEN TO ENSURE SUSTAINED DAMAGE MATTERS AND ISN'T ENTIRELY NULLIFIED BY HEALING! -- because it's not fun to only be able to kill someone off of a long chain of crowd control.

BURST DAMAGE SHOULDN'T EXCEED SUSTAINED DAMAGE BY 50-75%. In Legion I honestly felt like most classes did upwards of 600% more damage during their burst cooldowns when compared with what they did otherwise. This along with the previous nullification of sustained damage by sustained healing really made PvP have no sense of pace. There's very few satisfying duels based on counterplay; It's all about who blows their damage cooldowns when stuns are up. Nothing else. It really makes the game feel shallow, predictable and not very fun to play -- even though, ironically, burst damage is supposed to do the opposite.

I'd also like for tanks & healers take on a more 'support' role in PvP than just 'damage sponge' or 'endlessly efficient source of HP'. Bear Druids tanking 10 people and Mistweavers able to kite entire BG groups is seriously unfun. I don't care if it's balanced in 3v3s after healing dampening reaches 80%, classes like Legion Bear, Affliction and Mistweaver simply need not exist.
If your scaling bg/ arena, please scale dueling.

or..

Allow a 1v1 arena wargame.

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