Blizzard, what's up with Teldrassil?

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I'm just looking at the whole war for Teldrassil storyline and the absolutely pitiful defense that the Night Elves put up.

This storyline does not read like it was designed for a two faction game, but like its the fanfiction of some Garrosh fanboy who wanted to have the Horde effortlessly murder*!@# the Night Elves.

A storyline which is essentially "Horde rules, Alliance drools, you're incapable of doing anything to stop the Horde! FOR THE HORDE!" isn't exactly getting my hyped up for the Faction war.

Undercity isn't half as much of a humiliating slaughter as Teldrassil is.

I guess if you want to have Faction Pride in BFA "The Horde is waiting for you." as Ion said.
Two threads on the same subject in such quick succession! My word, we are being spoiled.

Care to actually elaborate?
Well planned surprise attack vs unsuspecting enemy usually goes in favor of the surprise attack i think
01/07/2018 02:08Posted by Brigante
Two threads on the same subject in such quick succession! My word, we are being spoiled.


Don't despair, 'son of Silvermoon'. BfA may just be a Blizzard test run to find out how much they can abuse their player base's sentiments.

With any (mis)luck, it's Quel'thalas' (and Azurmyst Isles?) turn after BfA.

At any rate, it should prove to them, that fighting bosses, evil and any other scum is more advisable than trampling on people's feelings.

Imo, it would have been better to put: "Night Elves and Forsaken against the odds. All rally to safeguard Azeroth!" on the pre-purchase as this would have at least insinuated a certain ''hope'' that ''all is not lost''. An impetus to buy the product and ''relish combat''. Because one does not really care to fight (or buy a product), if one gets the impression that all is already lost before the bloody thing hits the streets ^^

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01/07/2018 05:11Posted by Ràlph
Well planned surprise attack vs unsuspecting enemy usually goes in favor of the surprise attack i think

Surprise was ended when Malf put a wisp wall. Then we see mistakes after mistakes. Also laughable how once again a hundreds of "rogues" sneaked in Ashenvale and ofc no one didn't notice. And many many other things.
Please, it's not a pitiful defense. But they are facing a properly executed assault that has been planned in ever detail by the Warchief, High Overlord Saurfang and Nathanos Blightcaller. The Night Elven forces were decieved by their intelligence reports, which was pretty clever. Sending away all their military forces and leaving only a smaller force of Sentinels left to defend each village and outpost.

So when the Horde attacked, with their army of warriors, demolishers, explosives and blighted poisons used by their rogues, they were completely caught offguard.
I actually admire the Night Elves, even though I am Horde.
And I enjoyed seeing Malfurion in action, allowing Saurfang and Sylvanas face such a powerful foe.

But you see, the Horde had the numbers and the upper hand with their suprise attack. They basicly used the !@#$ model of Blitzkrieg, which is pretty effective used in the right time.

I understand you're frustration, but it's not that the Night Elves are weak, but they faced an overwhelming enemy. They faced the first undead Warchief, who has a entirely different mindset, longer experience in tactical war after her time as Ranger-General and her rebirth into undeath has only strenghten her talents and experience. She has proved herself time and again, no matter how much you hate her, it's hard to deny this.

And when you face an enemy, with a leader that was created by the Scourge and faced their might firsthand, which almost wiped out her former people, then you get an experience of how effective you can be in war when you don't have a guilty conscience or empathy that clouds your logical judgement.
This is why the Night Elves and their whole territory were destined to lose.
Sylvanas plans and commands with the same ruthlessness that she faced with Arthas and the Scourge.

The only difference is that now she has the Horde instead of an army of undead.
But they applied the same unmerciful tactics.
Fire and Blight against a people that lives in the forest is superior in it's use.

The only mistake Blizzard pulled here was to allow Malfurion to survive.
If it was Saurfang in character, he would not have been so sensitive. He saw his Warchief against such powerful foe, his loyalty and duty demanded that he took action to assure his Warchief's survival. It was no Mak'gora, but Blizzard wants the Alliance and a big part of the Horde who sympathize with Thrall's ideals.
It's already written so that most of you will despise the Warchief's actions, even though her method's might be cruel, it's still logical and effective.
But when Saurfang defied Sylvanas orders to finish Malfurion, which was a big part of the plan, he indirectly empowered the Alliance in the long run.
It would've been alot better for the whole story, for Horde an Alliance alike if Saurfang would've ended Malfurion there and then. It would've brought so much more drama and a chocking effect. But no, instead they ruin Saurfang.

I admire Thrall, no doubt. But he was too much of a pacifist for the Horde, he did alot of good, but he did the right thing when he made Garrosh Warchief.
We need someone who takes what the Horde needs.
People blame Sylvanas for everything, they hate her and judge her no matter what. But now she has secured precious resources for the Horde and food for all the Horde's mortal races.
So don't talk to me about her selfishness, because now she has changed. She is hellbent on making sure that the Horde will endure, unlike before when she only cared for herself and her people, now she takes her responsibility as Warchief seriously.

This campaign was part of a larger plan to destroy the Alliance once and for all, by taking out the entire highest ranked leaders in two swift moves.
But as we already know, the mortal aspects in the Horde like honor and empathy get's in the way and her plan doesn't work out the way it was thought of.
01/07/2018 05:11Posted by Ràlph
Well planned surprise attack vs unsuspecting enemy usually goes in favor of the surprise attack i think

Exactly the point I was making. It's not that the Night Elves are portrayed as weak or incompetent, it's just that the Horde attack was so well planned.
This outcome was completely logical from a military strategic point of view.

So no, Blizzard isn't portraying the NE as weak, rather the opposite. They fought hard and brave with the forces they had at their disposal. Even Malfurion was impressive. Shame that he did not die though.
It would've made him a hero instead of yet another time when he needed saving.
01/07/2018 06:14Posted by Песньзимы
01/07/2018 05:11Posted by Ràlph
Well planned surprise attack vs unsuspecting enemy usually goes in favor of the surprise attack i think

Surprise was ended when Malf put a wisp wall. Then we see mistakes after mistakes. Also laughable how once again a hundreds of "rogues" sneaked in Ashenvale and ofc no one didn't notice. And many many other things.

Laughable? C'mon. Most of their military forces where on route to Silithus, they were only left with the village defenses.
And the Horde brought their most skilled rogues into the fight, it wasn't the average one's.

Even though we do it alone ingame, lorwise it's one rogue for each guard or two.
You do know that the Forsaken has the Deathstalkers, undead who doesn't breathe and were trained by Varimathras himself.
Then you have a Blood Elf, who has specialized in covert missions like this, who leads the operation.

And no, the suprise wasn't completely ended with the wisp wall. You do know that they have no phones right? Malfurion put up the wall, but it takes time to alert everyone.
The conquering of Kalimdor was a success due to the Horde's wellplanned operations, while the Night Elves expected no attacks at all.
And they live in the forest, in the nature which makes them very exposed against an enemy that comes for them with fire and blighted weapons, then a huge army that pushed hard.
01/07/2018 09:25Posted by Ernst
Laughable? C'mon. Most of their military forces where on route to Silithus, they were only left with the village defenses.

All i see in your posts it's literally Horde favor. You think only for one side, but completly ignore opposite side. That's all.
01/07/2018 02:08Posted by Brigante
Two threads on the same subject in such quick succession! My word, we are being spoiled.

Care to actually elaborate?

The Horde Basically gets a self-congratulatory wankfest over How great they are, taking the Night Elven homeland by storm, essentially crapping all over the Night Elves.

While the Alliance is up to its own neck in Blood, and cant even manage to hold Tirisfal for itself.
01/07/2018 11:10Posted by Telror
The Horde Basically gets a self-congratulatory wankfest over How great they are, taking the Night Elven homeland by storm, essentially crapping all over the Night Elves.


Don't worry. True to Blizzard form, they might fall all the harder come the end of BfA.

But the many threads of complaints should have made it clear to Blizzard that screwing the player base has its price.

Hopefully they have learnt their lessson before they turn their paws to the expansion after BfA
01/07/2018 11:25Posted by Leafie
01/07/2018 11:10Posted by Telror
The Horde Basically gets a self-congratulatory wankfest over How great they are, taking the Night Elven homeland by storm, essentially crapping all over the Night Elves.


Don't worry. True to Blizzard form, they might fall all the harder come the end of BfA.

But the many threads of complaints should have made it clear to Blizzard that screwing the player base has its price.

Hopefully they have learnt their lessson before they turn their paws to the expansion after BfA


Luckily Blizzard is known for showing Alliance victories ingame, as is seen by the retaken ashenvale after cataclysm where no more Horde forces were shown ingame...

Oh wait; we'll probably end up with Kaldorei lands being forever locked in eternal battle and Tirisfal being retaken by the Forsaken and shown ingame.
Night Elf victory shall come with the Horde being nice.

Oh geez, sorry guys, we did not think you would take it so hard, losing your homeland and all that... here you go, you can have it back and some pats on the head!
I think at this point people are just complaining because their favourite race got a slap, and not even examining what is going on.

The Night Elves have sent their forces to counter a supposed Horde action in Silithis, so what is initially there is by no means the entirety of the Kaldorei armies. The Kaldorei are caught by surprise, the Alliance is, I mean you can tell this. Where are the Kaldorei's allies?

The Horde had time to plan this attack, and have done so en masse, the Alliance ( Especially the Kaldorei) did not have time to plan their defence.

The Horde is represented by every race bar the Pandaren, and new BFA races. What people are saying when they whinge about the Kaldorei getting smacked so hard is that in their headcanon the Kaldorei alone can take on the Horde. That's actually what you are expecting us to believe. That your favourite group of Pixels can beat up the combined forces of other Pixels who have greater diversity in their skillset and in some cases physical strength.

This isn't Kaldorei vs the Orcs. This isn't Alliance vs Horde. Its Kaldorei vs the Horde. Anyone still finding it silly that they lost that fight is beyond reasoning with. No one nation on Azeroth could stand against the combined mights of the other Faction on their own. That's why they're -in- these Factions. Unity makes you strong. There have always been threats, and since the Elves taught humans magic there have always been treaties and alliances. Because no one can stand alone.

And yet thats what we see here. Night Elf fans kicking the house down about the fact that -part- of their nations armies could not defeat -part- of the ENTIRE Horde's armies.

We then have people complaining "The Horde rages through and conquers it all in a day" No. Read the quest text. Just because you can do the quests in a single day, does not mean the events in those quests happen over a single day. On two occasions Sylvanas references Night setting in, so we know it takes at least three days, at bare minimum.

WIth Surprise, Blitzkrieg tactics, a pincer manouver and superior numbers against them I'd say the Kaldorei actually gave an extremely -good- account of themselves. Its a heroic defence, which costs the Horde dearly, they manage to utterly halt the advance at one point, which with the lack of numbers they have is impressive.

I'd have loved it if that was a plot involving Quel'thalas and Silvermoon. Loved it. Tales of plucky resistance and survival against overwhelming odds always tugged at my heartstrings though, so maybe that's just me. When I saw that quest and it said 'Rescue 982 people' I just went "Awww no, you know this is going to end in heartbreak", and it does! The Character can't save everyone, and almost dies trying. Its beautiful. Its horrible as well, but it is beautiful. The whole Scenario is Gods Gift if you play a Kaldorei on an RP realm The sheer angst, the stories, the reversion to type, steely determination, picking yourself up from the dust, spitting out the blood and raising your fists to fight! (A lot of this is the reason I main a Blood Elf, its a shame the starting Belf experience wasn't the Scourge invasion and immediate fall of Silvermoon and its after effects, but eh..)

If you don't play on an RP realm then, with the best will in the world, why does it matter? That's a genuine question. I can completely see why on an RP realm, people who have Kaldorei RP characters would be massively effected by this, I mean its massively going to effect my -Sin'dorei- character as well as my Kaldorei one, but if I was just playing for Raiding or PvP I can't see why I would have the same emotional investment to care about it?
01/07/2018 12:43Posted by Moridunum
Oh wait; we'll probably end up with Kaldorei lands being forever locked in eternal battle and Tirisfal being retaken by the Forsaken and shown ingame.


Ahem, Quel 'thalas and the Draenei isles say "hi" from back in TBC land. You're whinging about something you don't even know happens yet. You've got it lucky. Imagine knowing that they are never going to update your racial zones at all!
How the heck could the Kaldorei/the Alliance be taken surprise by the Horde gathering an army in Kalimdor? The moment the Horde started gathering an army in Orgrimmar the Alliance should have been reinforcing tbe Night Elves.

But nooooooo, the Alliance can't be portrayed as intelligent. The game would explode if Sylvanas's evil master plan didn't fold out perfectly for her and the Horde, so they could beat their chests while rolling over the Night Elves.

And dont give me that "wait and see" crap. The Night Elves got jack !@#$ after what they received in Cataclysm, why would it be any different now? Its easy to say as a blood elf player things will improve, when Blizzard bends over backwards for the sake of your race. Golden eyes, finding the Nightborne, ring a bell?
01/07/2018 13:00Posted by Brigante
I think at this point people are just complaining because their favourite race got a slap, and not even examining what is going on.

Partially. It's more about failure at eveything.
I will try to explain as best as i can:
1.All outpost in Ashenvale got taken by surpise. Ok, things happen, but show in Darskhore just 10-15 appearing Sentinels, from there, who manage to get themself here, evading main Horde forces, because they know this land better. So we can realize, not all outpost got rekt without chance, someone manage to fight back and prevail. This is enough to insipre yourself, like Sentinels can do something. And also show, even if few outpost manage to win their local battles, it clearly dosen't affected Horde Blitzkrieg through whole Ashenvale, it's even wont slow them, it is not enough.
2.Zoram'Gar, i wont talk much, just we need clarification, how he is standing still with full orc personal after SoO. How it is possible?
3.When Horde and Kaldorei got stalemate on river, and Malfurion call to retreat to Lor'Danel, why civilians wont evacuated to Darnasus? Literally, We all know, They all know, that stalemate on south wont last long, because with each passing hour Horde manage to gather more and more their soldiers through the wisp wall. It's just matter of time, when they would push on north. We need sending our civilians in most protected place, which is obviosly our capital. But no, we will keep them there, and then just trying to save them, when Horde totally swarmed this place.
4.Our fleet returned, good. Call retreat for our forces on south, while Horde numbers still not so high and they wont lose their heads in blindless charge after them. Or if we want proud tragedy, order to these forces take their last stand, for buying us time, so we can set sail to Darnasus, our most fortificated position, where it would be our last stand. That place is much easily to defend, than Lor'Danel. There is no Horde fleet presence after all, Sylvanas lead only ground troops with Air support. It take time for her gather own fleet there, time what Kaldorei trying to buy.

That will show us, that NE can actually think about strategy, some kind of maneuvers. Trying to do something smart, even if it will failed in the end. But Kaldorei just put all their hopes on one Wisp Wall, which is before long was penetrated, and Malfurion know about that.

What do we done?
1.We throw all forces from fleet and Darnasus to the south.
2.We not evacuated our civilians in time.
3.We draw all our reserves from Darnasus.

What are we got?
1.These forces just got melted by foe who is finally managed to break this wall(which is was expected even by Malfurion) and became outnumbering, as expected.
I think not just forces from arrived fleet, but also moblized from Darnasus were sended to the south.
2.We throw our Lor'Danel civilians in Horde hands, and more important, by these remained there civilians we just shackle own hands in that fight, because we now must not just fight with foe who right before us, but also try to rescue our people.
3.We leave our capital, who contain huge numbers our civilians totally unprotected. And if we fall here, they are doomed.(And this is happened).
4.We provided Sylvanas ground troops our ships. Perfect.

Literally, Night Elfs here come not just without any plan, how to buy time for Alliance fleets arrival, how to act if something would be going wrong, they are literally help Sylvanas on every step, finish this blitzkrieg already.

It's like Sylvanas instead of taking first and last stand in most fortificated keep, would just gather all forces near Brill and wasted them there against outnumbering foe. Leaving capital with citizens unprotected, and ready for occupation.
01/07/2018 13:00Posted by Brigante
What people are saying when they whinge about the Kaldorei getting smacked so hard is that in their headcanon the Kaldorei alone can take on the Horde.


You have clairvoyant skills, or how do you know why people are complaing?

I, for one, find the ''amount of destruction" over the top. That's all. And, I do not regard destroying capitals (no matter whose race) as a just means to create ''hype for a product to sell". It's bad taste in my book.

Now, what that should have to do with ''headcanon'' is beyond me. Maybe it is the laziest way to criticise? Or, are you just projecting your presupposition?
Its called misdirection, or simply doing what is not expected. We've just seen this week the scenarios released for Silithis. The Alliance has started interfering with Horde mining operations in Silithis. The Horde starts mustering forces in Orgrimmar ( Same as they always do, not to mention that some of those forces -live- there). Darnassus is -not- the obvious place you would expect an attack

01/07/2018 13:35Posted by Telror
But nooooooo, the Alliance can't be portrayed as intelligent.

Mainly because certain vocal fans of the Alliance don't want them to be. It is frustrating, but they cannot comprehend the Alliance being smart and getting the first punch in, because 'that's not what good guys do' ( Which is completely ignoring the lessons of history from our world, but hey ho)

01/07/2018 13:35Posted by Telror
The game would explode if Sylvanas's evil master plan didn't fold out perfectly for her and the Horde, so they could beat their chests while rolling over the Night Elves.


I guess the game exploded then? Sylvanas 'evil master plan' most certainly did not unfold perfectly. At all. In fact whilst there were military successes, none of her aims were achieved. Malfurion still lives, and Darnassus was not occupied. Those were the two objectives. Neither succeeded. They were also delayed long enough that the Kaldorei forces sent to Silithis were on the way back. Rather than occupying Darnassus and trying to use its civilian population as leverage to argue a division of the planet between the two Factions, she has failed, and now a bitter war will follow, one that will see her own people's capital fall.

Not one aspect of this is in accordance with her plan. Not one.

01/07/2018 13:35Posted by Telror
And dont give me that "wait and see" crap. The Night Elves got jack !@#$ after what they received in Cataclysm, why would it be any different now?

I don't know, because now Blizzard seem more willing to phase zones/cities to their original versions prior to game events changing them. See Theramore, Blasted Lands, Silithis for that matter. That's just cosmetic. If you're asking about what in lore and in game depiction will the High Elves get, then who knows, but they can't have a situation where every Alliance leader ends up parked standing next to Anduin now can we? That would be silly. We see a lot of Kaldorei refugees, civilians, in Stormwind. In Screenshots. Same as we saw Forsaken refugees during WotLK. What are their soldiers up to? Something, thats for sure.

That doesn't mean that is how the expansion ends. It has not even been -released- yet for goodness sake, and already some people are talking as if it has already ended and judging it on that. The Kaldorei story doesn't end with the destruction of Teldrassil, and heck, we don't even know -who- does that yet. Certainly wasn't Sylvanas' plan..

01/07/2018 13:35Posted by Telror
Its easy to say as a blood elf player things will improve,

Blood Elf, and Human, and Night Elf, and Troll, and Orc, and Tauren, and Gnome, and Draenei, and more besides. However I am only one of those things in real life ( Not that WoW humans actually -look- human as such, but you know what I mean). Would my opinion have been more palatable if I had posted on my Human character? Or my Kaldorei? I mean it wouldn't change my opinion....
I post on this character because a) he is GM of his guild, and I use him to post a lot on the AD forum and b)I like to keep a sense of transparency as to who is posting, and so I try to stick to one character for doing so. Nothing more, nothing less.

01/07/2018 13:35Posted by Telror
when Blizzard bends over backwards for the sake of your race.


You got to be kidding me! Last of the early races to get a model upgrade along with Draenei (Worgen and Goblins are next in the queue). Our Zones, despite constantly asking for an update remain trapped in TBC, and we're shafted by plot and writing...Oh, the Blood Elves have regained in strength, and are capable of prosecuting a war on a different continent -on their own with no Horde help- and ooh, they can even do so on another -planet and time continuum- but they can't clean out their own back yard, despite us showing them doing so in TBC?

Naah, we need Ghostlands to still be spoopy.
Perfect sense.

Or how about "Hey Blizz, you know how the Draenei Isles and Silvermoon are all on the coding maps for Outlands yeah? and how everywhere else you can fly on Azeroth, and everywhere on Outlands maps you can fly, is there like, any chance we can fly in those zones, you know, the way quests shows that we can?"

Deafening silence.

"Oh, hey, Blizz, Remember Anasterian, he was a pretty gnarly dude, great beard, I mean dwarflike in its magnificence, and yet, we can't help noticing you've stuck us with these crappy little Soul Patches, that don't actually make any lore sense, so, is there any chance you could give us -actual- facial hair options? Y'know, like they would have?

Blizz: "Sure, we'll uh, give them to Void Elves, only on Alliance, that's what you've been asking for for ten years right?"
"No Blizz...that's not..."

01/07/2018 13:35Posted by Telror
Golden eyes


Who wanted that? I know of no one who wanted it. It doesn't even make complete lore sense ( files under the list of bad writing the Belves get) as the Sunwell is a -mix- of Light and Arcane as detailed in Chronicles III.

So no, I didn't want that, I don't care about that, and I don't know of anyone who asked for it.

01/07/2018 13:35Posted by Telror
finding the Nightborne, ring a bell?


There we go.
Who asked for Nightborne on Horde? How is that in any way linked to the Blood Elves? I mean that's how it happens in game, but how is that linked to Blood Elf players wanting anything? No one asked for it. What benefit does this give someone with a Blood Elf character? If anything it destroys their leverage as now the Horde has -two- races of Arcanely powerful Elves.

You list things people never asked for, or that certainly were not common requests, and in one case is irrelevent. I link things people did ask for, that Blood Elves never got. And Blizz bends over backwards?

Sure.
01/07/2018 14:32Posted by Brigante
Its called misdirection

Can you answer on my post please?

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