Leveling nerfed AGAIN in 8.0

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26/07/2018 13:08Posted by Clarencia
60 euro. 60. sixty. Too much.

Free, with each expansion.
The following was just posted by Watcher in the NA forums, copying it here for discussion:

If any of the communication thus far, or the lack of visible action, has given the impression that we don't consider the issues raised in this thread and others like it to be a problem, I'd like to emphatically state that nothing could be farther from the truth.

At this point, the feel and pacing of the level-up experience is a top priority for the team. We made deliberate changes to the feel of combat six months ago in 7.3.5, moving away from a world where low-level players (especially with heirlooms) could often kill outdoor enemies in 3-4 seconds, and where dungeon mobs died so quickly that a caster with a long windup might not even get a single spell off. Those changes were controversial at the time, but we stand by them as an improvement to the overall pacing of the game. But we also think that those changes went quite far enough, and have absolutely no desire or intent to continue moving in that direction. Nothing about the pre-patch was deliberately intended to make combat take longer than it did previously.

So why haven't we fixed it yet? Honestly, because we genuinely don't know where exactly the problem lies, and we don't want to make a blind blanket change that actually misses the real source of the problem. That's why much of Ythisens' and others' messages thus far have been asking the community for detailed examples to guide our search.

We "squished" stats and item levels, but this was done with the aim of being neutral with respect to the duration and lethality of combat. When we heard complaints about things taking too long to kill, we immediately assumed we'd gotten those calculations wrong. But a look at the raw data didn't suggest any clear anomalies. So we started testing empirically: We can run internal 7.3.5 builds, so we set up test characters (e.g. a level 70 wearing appropriate quest gear awarded by quests around that level - Item Level 115 in 7.3.5, Item Level 79 in 8.0.1) and fight outdoor enemies in 7.3.5, and then take the same character in 8.0.1 and fight the same enemies, and compare.

We are seeing the same sort of discrepancies that folks in this thread and others have pointed out, but still have yet to pinpoint the exact aspect of scaling that we failed to account for. We want to understand WHY the numbers are off and fix the underlying cause: Were stats on gear reduced too much? Some aspect of creature armor or other combat calculations? Are our baseline values accurate, but the shape of the scaling curve wrong such that it’s particularly far off the mark in the 60-80 range? We would prefer a targeted solution versus just applying a bandaid fix that could mask deeper issues that could cause problems down the line, but at some point it’s not fair to give you a degraded experience for the sake of that investigation, so we’ll likely go ahead with a blanket health reduction in the near future while we continue to investigate.

Either way, the current state is not the game experience we intended, and it’s something we will fix.

There is another issue tangentially related to this discussion that I also would like to address: Many feel that it takes too long to level in the 60-80 range in particular, and that the combat pacing issues discussed here are just a piece of that larger problem. We agree – currently players are taking about 15% longer per level, on average, in that range as compared to before 60 or after 80. We’re in the process of assembling a set of changes that will smooth out the experience curve at level 60 and beyond, reducing the experience requirements for those levels.

We’ll have further updates as specific changes roll out, but we’re prioritizing our work on this problem and hoping to get these improvements out to everyone in the coming days.
cap post raised.
Thank for the response and for finally addressing the problem,i hope u find a fix as fast as possible.
Ty for the response. Thats what we wanted to hear.
Just a clear answer and good luck for the team :)
I just read it on MMO Champ. Thanks for posting this, it's very reassuring. Glad you guys are aware of the 60-80 range being the worst part too. Really hope you guys can fix it before BfA hits.
After reading this last blue post i will try to explain as best as possible what problem is. I do not mind mobs not being 1-2 shotted but biggest problem is for example as i am leveling frost mage mobs taking 10-15 frostbolts each to kill and pray to rng i get any kind of procs to make it go faster, but in most cases mob hp compared to damage done is way too high. Specialy on elite mobs, big quest mobs and dungeon mobs and bosses. They take way too long to kill. For example any dungeon boss i fought in lvl range of 20-55 took 3-4 minutes to kill to point it feels like raid boss. Heck in antorus some bosses die faster than that. And having to spam same spell for so long with almost no danger you will ever die is just silly. In outdoor places i understand rare mobs and maybe elites should be harder to kill and could kill you in return, but having normal mobs of same level as you 1vs1 bring you to 30% hp even if i used frost nova and barrier to slow them and soak damage is way too much. In my opinion there is 1 thing you have to do to make leveling alot smoother and more fun. Cut all mobs hp to point where legion ones are now. Atm lower than legion level mobs are massive damage sponges. On quests where you have to kill 10-20 of same mob and each takes 20+ seconds to kill is not fun.
26/07/2018 21:24Posted by Lore
We agree – currently players are taking about 15% longer per level, on average, in that range as compared to before 60 or after 80. We’re in the process of assembling a set of changes that will smooth out the experience curve at level 60 and beyond, reducing the experience requirements for those levels.


15%? really?
Just a simple example from my leveling experience (just in Zangarmarsh at lvl 63).

Instead of getting aroung 16k xp per completed quest (in Stranglethorn Vale at lvl 57), i get 11k (i'd say that's around 66% or 33% less). But you still increased the xp needed for a level up. Oh, and needing like 1h30 mins. level instead of around 30 mins. doesn't sound like 15% either.

So it's not about combat time, damage done or damage taken. It's about xp needed, and xp rewarded (for quests or dungeons).
Thanks for your response, although you are correct regarding 60-80 bracket what we would like to see here is a choice, where we decide how we level. Vanilla like without heirlooms and content like it is currently perhaps? And quick leveling with heirlooms as a second choice which wont provide a significant boost in stats, but in experience gained. Maybe 200%
26/07/2018 21:24Posted by Lore
The following was just posted by Watcher in the NA forums, copying it here for discussion:

If any of the communication thus far, or the lack of visible action, has given the impression that we don't consider the issues raised in this thread and others like it to be a problem, I'd like to emphatically state that nothing could be farther from the truth.

At this point, the feel and pacing of the level-up experience is a top priority for the team. We made deliberate changes to the feel of combat six months ago in 7.3.5, moving away from a world where low-level players (especially with heirlooms) could often kill outdoor enemies in 3-4 seconds, and where dungeon mobs died so quickly that a caster with a long windup might not even get a single spell off. Those changes were controversial at the time, but we stand by them as an improvement to the overall pacing of the game. But we also think that those changes went quite far enough, and have absolutely no desire or intent to continue moving in that direction. Nothing about the pre-patch was deliberately intended to make combat take longer than it did previously.

So why haven't we fixed it yet? Honestly, because we genuinely don't know where exactly the problem lies, and we don't want to make a blind blanket change that actually misses the real source of the problem. That's why much of Ythisens' and others' messages thus far have been asking the community for detailed examples to guide our search.

We "squished" stats and item levels, but this was done with the aim of being neutral with respect to the duration and lethality of combat. When we heard complaints about things taking too long to kill, we immediately assumed we'd gotten those calculations wrong. But a look at the raw data didn't suggest any clear anomalies. So we started testing empirically: We can run internal 7.3.5 builds, so we set up test characters (e.g. a level 70 wearing appropriate quest gear awarded by quests around that level - Item Level 115 in 7.3.5, Item Level 79 in 8.0.1) and fight outdoor enemies in 7.3.5, and then take the same character in 8.0.1 and fight the same enemies, and compare.

We are seeing the same sort of discrepancies that folks in this thread and others have pointed out, but still have yet to pinpoint the exact aspect of scaling that we failed to account for. We want to understand WHY the numbers are off and fix the underlying cause: Were stats on gear reduced too much? Some aspect of creature armor or other combat calculations? Are our baseline values accurate, but the shape of the scaling curve wrong such that it’s particularly far off the mark in the 60-80 range? We would prefer a targeted solution versus just applying a bandaid fix that could mask deeper issues that could cause problems down the line, but at some point it’s not fair to give you a degraded experience for the sake of that investigation, so we’ll likely go ahead with a blanket health reduction in the near future while we continue to investigate.

Either way, the current state is not the game experience we intended, and it’s something we will fix.

There is another issue tangentially related to this discussion that I also would like to address: Many feel that it takes too long to level in the 60-80 range in particular, and that the combat pacing issues discussed here are just a piece of that larger problem. We agree – currently players are taking about 15% longer per level, on average, in that range as compared to before 60 or after 80. We’re in the process of assembling a set of changes that will smooth out the experience curve at level 60 and beyond, reducing the experience requirements for those levels.

We’ll have further updates as specific changes roll out, but we’re prioritizing our work on this problem and hoping to get these improvements out to everyone in the coming days.

Truth is majority just don't like the slow levelling, even with scaling issues resolved, people are using this hate train as an attempt to make levelling faster overall, or giving players a choice for faster levelling, and those hardcore players who want slow levelling, they still have that choice.

Truth be told, once scaling issues are resolved it will be the same as before pre-patch, however people see an opportunity to make it even faster and they will jump on that hate train.
It's all good, but what about veteran players that just want to get theirs alts to max level asap without going through those low level questing/dungeons boredom for 10th (or more) time? When this will be addressed? Current heirloom bonus is clearly not enough. And you, Blizzard, removed all other ways that we used to make leveling faster.
I feel that this is exactly the type of explanation we wanted to hear.

I have leveled a warrior pre- and past-7.3.5 (and currently leveling a warlock which is at the moment at lvl 65) and indeed the problem seems to be concentrated in the 60-80 range. Aside from the XP numbers related slowness mentioned, what I noticed on my warrior is that mob health and damage numbers felt inconsistent with pre-60 and past-80 levels. I got to 60 with a full heirloom geared character, traveled to Howling Fjord, and suddenly it felt like I was doing a lot less damage and taking a lot more damage. I wasn't expecting an experience like pulling half the map and slaughtering them without breaking a sweat after the nerfs to the heirlooms, but I was a lot more underpowered than I expected. On my warrior, once I got past 80 and made my way to Pandaria, things got a lot better. I have not looked at the numbers, but it feels more like an item scaling issue more than anything else. I did some questing at Winterspring to help a friend while I was past 60 (so the zone and quest rewards were scaled to 60) and some quest rewards (blues especially) were doing better according to Pawn than the ones I got from quests scaled to lvl 62-63 in Howling Fjord. If I understand correctly, that should not happen.

I did not really think about it (I have a patient girlfriend with a 110 druid who is always happy to help, thankfully) so I can't give you anything more concrete, but hope you can find a fix quickly. BC/WotLK questing is already tedious enough without having to suffer through it like an undergeared alt in a new expansion.
26/07/2018 21:46Posted by Шокохрюшка
It's all good, but what about veteran players that just want to get theirs alts to max level asap without going through those low level questing/dungeons boredom for 10th (or more) time? When this will be addressed? Current heirloom bonus is clearly not enough. And you, Blizzard, removed all other ways that we used to make leveling faster.

See I think that is the problem, they are completely avoiding the fact of slow levelling overall, just looking at level 60-80 part, and some mobs having too much health, meanwhile all I see is people complain about how long levelling takes overall, however they keep dodging that question
as one of those people that doesn't normally post on the forums, and as a player that's played since vanilla on and off, thought I would add my opinion.

I agree with people that levelling at the moment feels too slow, the gap between lvl 1 and max level is getting bigger (obviously) and grinding through the old expansions is feeling more and more like a chore rather than something that I would do for fun. I see levelling now more as "I would earn more money working during this time rather levelling, so I might as well buy a level boost". For something that is suppose to be enjoyable I don't think this is something that I should feel when levelling an alt. Granted I've levelled a lot of characters over the years, but it should not feel like a chore to level a character.

I didn't particuarly like how heirlooms are no longer as powerful as they used to be - being able to kill things quickly is part of the fun (although I understand the arguement for casters in dungeons), and the XP boost feels negligible, so I dread to see what it feels like for someone with no heirlooms.

I like the changes with levelling zones now scaling with character levels, meaning you don't have to leave a zone immediately after entering it, but I also feel like XP gains should be boosted more when a new expansion comes out. I think with the scaling you keep the feeling that you're getting stuck into the zone and getting a bit of story etc, but also with a bit more xp I think it would feel more that you're not wasting your time when you would gain more xp per hour with dungeon grinding.

One thing I would like to see in the store is the ability to buy blocks of levels, rather than immediately going straight to max or 10 levels below. like 10 levels for £5 or something like that. then it would offer an alternative for people who don't want to feel like they cheated their way to max level, but also give an opportunity to skip the expansions that they loathe or have played to death.
26/07/2018 21:24Posted by Lore
The following was just posted by Watcher in the NA forums, copying it here for discussion:

If any of the communication thus far, or the lack of visible action, has given the impression that we don't consider the issues raised in this thread and others like it to be a problem, I'd like to emphatically state that nothing could be farther from the truth.

At this point, the feel and pacing of the level-up experience is a top priority for the team. We made deliberate changes to the feel of combat six months ago in 7.3.5, moving away from a world where low-level players (especially with heirlooms) could often kill outdoor enemies in 3-4 seconds, and where dungeon mobs died so quickly that a caster with a long windup might not even get a single spell off. Those changes were controversial at the time, but we stand by them as an improvement to the overall pacing of the game. But we also think that those changes went quite far enough, and have absolutely no desire or intent to continue moving in that direction. Nothing about the pre-patch was deliberately intended to make combat take longer than it did previously.

So why haven't we fixed it yet? Honestly, because we genuinely don't know where exactly the problem lies, and we don't want to make a blind blanket change that actually misses the real source of the problem. That's why much of Ythisens' and others' messages thus far have been asking the community for detailed examples to guide our search.

We "squished" stats and item levels, but this was done with the aim of being neutral with respect to the duration and lethality of combat. When we heard complaints about things taking too long to kill, we immediately assumed we'd gotten those calculations wrong. But a look at the raw data didn't suggest any clear anomalies. So we started testing empirically: We can run internal 7.3.5 builds, so we set up test characters (e.g. a level 70 wearing appropriate quest gear awarded by quests around that level - Item Level 115 in 7.3.5, Item Level 79 in 8.0.1) and fight outdoor enemies in 7.3.5, and then take the same character in 8.0.1 and fight the same enemies, and compare.

We are seeing the same sort of discrepancies that folks in this thread and others have pointed out, but still have yet to pinpoint the exact aspect of scaling that we failed to account for. We want to understand WHY the numbers are off and fix the underlying cause: Were stats on gear reduced too much? Some aspect of creature armor or other combat calculations? Are our baseline values accurate, but the shape of the scaling curve wrong such that it’s particularly far off the mark in the 60-80 range? We would prefer a targeted solution versus just applying a bandaid fix that could mask deeper issues that could cause problems down the line, but at some point it’s not fair to give you a degraded experience for the sake of that investigation, so we’ll likely go ahead with a blanket health reduction in the near future while we continue to investigate.

Either way, the current state is not the game experience we intended, and it’s something we will fix.

There is another issue tangentially related to this discussion that I also would like to address: Many feel that it takes too long to level in the 60-80 range in particular, and that the combat pacing issues discussed here are just a piece of that larger problem. We agree – currently players are taking about 15% longer per level, on average, in that range as compared to before 60 or after 80. We’re in the process of assembling a set of changes that will smooth out the experience curve at level 60 and beyond, reducing the experience requirements for those levels.

We’ll have further updates as specific changes roll out, but we’re prioritizing our work on this problem and hoping to get these improvements out to everyone in the coming days.


After reading this response, the question rises why the hell didn't they test stuff properly PRIOR releasing their software?

I can justify me, for example, not testing something i develop at home for home use, but a company of this scale making a product this big and not testing it properly,doing such a horrific release, then hotfixing stuff each week, sure does rise eybrows.

Makes me feel one of the following:
1. There is something very wrong in the wow dev team (the rumored so called B team, that seem to currently be working on wow, is all interns)
2. Team is so small and so pressured, they dont have time to test what they develop.
3. They just do not care any longer.
4. Everything is intentional with the notion, that "players won't notice" (remember this was once the case with world scaling), and now devs are backing off and try to revert intended changes covering all of this as bugs.

Either way, the promised "nothing will change post squish" is nowhere around. Not only low level toons are having it rough, but my 110s which had their way around world solo easily in 7.3.5, now are having their !@# handed to them by, for example, Kosumoth.
That response was highly needed because the state the levelling is in was enough for me to call it the last drop if nothing would happen before BFA.

Still, I'm fine with 7.3.5 that it brings joy to many. An option for others to just have more XP gain would be greatly appreciated. Overpowered heirlooms is not the way, I know. Pace of 7.3.5 would have been fine if the rewards were better (XP gain).
Blizzard can leave the difficulty. They should just raise the exp per mob and make dungeon runs profitable again.
I really am laughing at this. The community complain and moan they want vanilla servers. Now the levelling has slowed down a tiny bit (and still way faster than vanilla), all the whinging and moaning complains its too slow.
I'm pretty sure it's spec related, go to Westfall with a frost mage, try to pull 4-5 mobs and try to survive, you probably won't, now try it by switching to Fire, you'll have a much easier time.

Now I don't know if the numbers on the spells are off or something but I personally noticed it's spec related.

I also three-shot most enemies on my Arms warrior.
Lol but we already made a new thread.

Anyway I am really happy to hear you are altering 60-80 because that is what was killing levelling for me. I am a happy clam!
26/07/2018 21:57Posted by Tanthalas
I really am laughing at this. The community complain and moan they want vanilla servers. Now the levelling has slowed down a tiny bit (and still way faster than vanilla), all the whinging and moaning complains its too slow.

Vanilla and Retail are so fundamentally different that it doesn't make sense to compare them right now.

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