To do well in PvP I now need to grind PvE gear?

General
Yes, pretty much what the above poster said.

Templates removed all the fun of battlegrounds, i had set stats, i could not mix up my gear, do anything fancy. the game gave PvP trinkets that i couldn't even use in PvP? i mean what?

how can anyone miss that?
i sure loved having 2.5M hp less than everyone else as a frost mage, but at least i could kite meeles oh no... monks, demons hunters and warriors exist
Templates are !@#$ and they should be removed, but with this removal there should be a way for the PvPers to get gear that is better for PvP than PvE gear... This was not the case.
Im not a pvper, and will not claim to be one. But i have read allot of posts during my years playing and its impossible to please everyone. Adding res back on gear means that for players starting with pvp they couldnt win anything until they had lost 50+ games so they could start getting the required gear. Having pve gear simply be better isnt good because it promotes raiding as a methid of pvp progression. Having templates makes every single character the same, and removes the progression from pvp and the rewards now have to be 100% cosmetic. Having scaling pvp gear that is low in pve scenarios and high in pvp brings the same issue as with res.

There is no easy solution, its a system that blizzard is working hard on and are making better and better as they go.

They Always have the problem of balance, but what people dont understand is that there is no solution that fixes all the problems. The only way to do that is to make every síngle player the same in pvp, same racials, same class and spec for everyone. Then there would be perfect balance, but thats not fun. So if you want Blizzard to fix this issue, come up with a solution that solves all the issues that i have stated above, and brings none of the drawbacks of those systems. Then i PROMISE blizzard will implement it, because it would fix 50% of the end game content.
Why did people hate templates? Everybody was on equal ground and gear did not matter.


No, ilvl still gave you more stats, and even 5% is a whole lot with how PvP works atm. You also still had to do PvE if you wanted max ilvl. I don't get how so many people say gear didn't matter, I could feel and see the difference of having bad gear and having OK gear easily.

And seriously, you can still win against much better geared people if they suck (and have no rogue :D), and I have no problem losing against people who have MUCH better gear, this is not counter strike. If I want balanced PvP without gear as a factor I can play any other game with the added benefit of not having unbalanced classes as another factor.

Also there's a reason WotLK (and MoP probably) were considered great for PvP, and that without scaling, templates or other hidden crap. Templates and scaling is just a lazy bandaid fix so you don't have to fix the game itself.

Edit: Why can't I mythic raid and kill all bosses if I just play 30min a day and don't want to farm gear?
20/07/2018 09:45Posted by Berlinskia
I don't understand the logic behind this.

Its the Classic-WoW-experience. People love Classic, dont they?
27/07/2018 08:18Posted by Uvi
20/07/2018 09:45Posted by Berlinskia
I don't understand the logic behind this.

Its the Classic-WoW-experience. People love Classic, dont they?


i Think they are just nostalgic onec they play it again they will realise how slow and tedious was just to ding 60 XD so they will go back to BFA :P.
20/07/2018 09:45Posted by Berlinskia
Why did people hate templates? Everybody was on equal ground and gear did not matter.

Now, if I want to do PvP, I have to grind out m+ and heroic raids or be stomped?

I don't understand the logic behind this.


Back in Vanilla pvp gear gave a lot more stamina, and was therefore a lot more viable, in BC came resi gear that was necessary to be able to PvP.

So a lot of good gear for PvPing actually came from PvPing back in the day.

Templates are terrible, and shouldn't be in the game, this is an mmorpg. Some characters should be stronger than others. There should be a way to progress in PvP, getting constantly better gear.

Blizzard just need to start making PvP a viable way to gain PvP gear again. It's that simple.

One easy way to do this, would be remove all the RnG crap from PvPing and make it possible to grind for good PvP gear once again. Whether it be through Arena, BGs or whatever, doesn't matter.
Bring back resilience PvP gear.
I had no issue with that before.

Templates were awful and to be honest most of the PvP community I played with enjoyed the gearing up during the beginning of a season.
The only ones who I noticed complain about it was PvEers who claimed it as a barrier to entry yet it was just the same grind that we all had to do plus you could get the full set within a few weeks.
Back in Cata & MoP I was a raid leader and also an avid PvPer, I had no issues with either system at the time.

Bring back Honour and conquest vendors I say.
27/07/2018 11:29Posted by Krillsey
Bring back resilience PvP gear.
I had no issue with that before.


Yeah seriously. I've watched them try armor that swaps item level depending on content, randomly reward pieces, templates... And none of them worked as good as the simple system we had back in TBC/Wrath.
Blizz should do like Gw2 (or like they do for arena tournamentS) and just place everyone in the same gear, no difference what so ever, that's the only time the game is competitively viable anyway.

"we play a mmo and we dont play it to be equal we play it to build our characters to be stronger."

Maybe you do, I play to compete and the only time the game is competitively viable is when all parties are equal, no one having more or less than others.

Casual balance = gated content, some people having more or less than others which causes statistical disadvantage towards those with less unlocked stuff, like League of lamers, heroes of the supercasual and games like that.

Competitive balance = Equality, no one having more or less than others, all that matters is SKILL, not amount of unlocked stuff, like CS, Dota, Quake, Starcraft and so on.

Blizzard understands this, which is why they made tournament servers for arena tournament, where EVERYONE IS EQUAL, but people "want to build themselves strong", completely ignoring the fact that it makes the game casual, rather than competitive.
27/07/2018 11:40Posted by Puro
Blizz should do like Gw2 (or like they do for arena tournamentS) and just place everyone in the same gear, no difference what so ever, that's the only time the game is competitively viable anyway.

"we play a mmo and we dont play it to be equal we play it to build our characters to be stronger."

Maybe you do, I play to compete and the only time the game is competitively viable is when all parties are equal, no one having more or less than others.

Casual balance = gated content, some people having more or less than others which causes statistical disadvantage towards those with less unlocked stuff, like League of lamers, heroes of the supercasual and games like that.

Competitive balance = Equality, no one having more or less than others, all that matters is SKILL, not amount of unlocked stuff, like CS, Dota, Quake, Starcraft and so on.

Blizzard understands this, which is why they made tournament servers for arena tournament, where EVERYONE IS EQUAL, but people "want to build themselves strong", completely ignoring the fact that it makes the game casual, rather than competitive.


You're comparing apples & oranges.

League of Legends is built, from the ground up, to be a 100% player versus player driven experience. Same with Counter-Strike. The game HAS to be balanced around PvP because the game IS PvP.

WoW is many things before it's a PvP game - It's an RPG & an MMO for a start, and both of these things should take precedent wherever possible. Gimping character progression for slightly more balanced casual PvP content isn't something I'm a fan of.

Tournament realms are again a bit different. They exist solely for PvP.
20/07/2018 09:45Posted by Berlinskia
Why did people hate templates? Everybody was on equal ground and gear did not matter.

Now, if I want to do PvP, I have to grind out m+ and heroic raids or be stomped?

I don't understand the logic behind this.
¨

Everybody Shouldn't be on Equal ground, gear SHOULD matter. A beginner player should never ever be on the same playing field as a player who has 10x more experience and has put in a lot of time into pvping.

It's an MMORPG, you're supposed to put work into your character instead of instantly being as powerful as anyone else right off the bat.
27/07/2018 11:40Posted by Puro
Blizz should do like Gw2 (or like they do for arena tournamentS) and just place everyone in the same gear, no difference what so ever, that's the only time the game is competitively viable anyway.

"we play a mmo and we dont play it to be equal we play it to build our characters to be stronger."

Maybe you do, I play to compete and the only time the game is competitively viable is when all parties are equal, no one having more or less than others.

Casual balance = gated content, some people having more or less than others which causes statistical disadvantage towards those with less unlocked stuff, like League of lamers, heroes of the supercasual and games like that.

Competitive balance = Equality, no one having more or less than others, all that matters is SKILL, not amount of unlocked stuff, like CS, Dota, Quake, Starcraft and so on.

Blizzard understands this, which is why they made tournament servers for arena tournament, where EVERYONE IS EQUAL, but people "want to build themselves strong", completely ignoring the fact that it makes the game casual, rather than competitive.


Competitive balance in WoW will NEVER happen. This is why the entire template thing is so laughable in the first place. It doesn't even balance the game. Instead it screws over any sort of character progression, whilst having the game be unbalanced.

If you want to play a competitive and balanced game play Dota or CS. Wow has always been inherently unbalanced and always will be. Playing wow for competitiveness is like playing competitive roulette.
I was one of the people defending stat templates (in my mind 100% balanced pvp would be great) but it just doesn't work in an MMO. It removed all the point to get specific/better gear. Also very sad that you cannot play your class like you want it. For instance there is no way I could play a crit build or a haste build since the stats were always the same. Boring.

I really appreciate Blizzard for trying (this was asked by us), but it doesn't work and it's great they removed it fast.
27/07/2018 11:29Posted by Krillsey
Bring back resilience PvP gear.
I had no issue with that before.


u never PVP in your life and u comin here saying bring back resilience lul which was one of the worst choice they did for PVP
27/07/2018 12:20Posted by Raiden
27/07/2018 11:29Posted by Krillsey
Bring back resilience PvP gear.
I had no issue with that before.


u never PVP in your life and u comin here saying bring back resilience lul which was one of the worst choice they did for PVP


He probably played on private servers back in the day at least what i assume he means.And even thou some i heared are Blizzlike kind of servers it is still illegal to use them cause they are stealing Blizzard IP
by doing it,i know that stuff cause my best friends back in the day were poor so they had to play on private servers so i know some stuff.So on to the topic he played pvp on wotlk private servers there are 100 or more of them out there.
The main problem was not just the templates with PvP, but the removal of PvP wendors and fully randomized ilvl AND stats on gear... blizzard thought it would be good to switch from a completely stable zero RNG system to a full RNG bullsh*t with lower ilvl and less items alltogether reward system compared to PvE AND spice it with the fact, the stats on PvP gear doesnt even matter, just ilvl, which comes from PvE better... so it ended up becoming a no-PvP expansion.
I'm actually waiting in queue for normal battlegrounds as an alliance player... back in cataclysm, I've just joined a random BG and I got called in in around 5-10 sec.
Now I can complete multipple quests between BGs if I'm not joined to like 5 different stuff and enter them one after the other.
27/07/2018 12:20Posted by Raiden
27/07/2018 11:29Posted by Krillsey
Bring back resilience PvP gear.
I had no issue with that before.


u never PVP in your life and u comin here saying bring back resilience lul which was one of the worst choice they did for PVP


Those times were the only ones, where PvP players were able to kill PvE players, any other exnapsion that came after resilience gone were the golden age of PvE, where PvP players hide in cities and join arena / RBG and know nothing about the world out there, because if they stepp out, they die.
20/07/2018 09:45Posted by Berlinskia
Why did people hate templates? Everybody was on equal ground and gear did not matter.
That is literally the reason, we play an MMORPG where progression is supposed to matter, but templates killed that.

I'm all for the removal of templates it made PvP feel empty and hollow.

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