PL Only has ruined raiding for me tbh

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29/07/2018 23:22Posted by Amalei
As a side note: we also had to replace fairly often since sometimes those that got lucky were only there for the loot and just stopped pitching once they had what they needed.
This is where I'm afraid aswell, "Oh, I'm geared on my main! I either show up on my alt now for progerss runs or never again!"
29/07/2018 23:31Posted by Destruct
29/07/2018 23:22Posted by Amalei
As a side note: we also had to replace fairly often since sometimes those that got lucky were only there for the loot and just stopped pitching once they had what they needed.
This is where I'm afraid of aswell, "Oh I'm geared on my main! I either show up on my alt now for progerss runs or never again!"


Pretty much what happened... That and the halt in progress because of it, meant some just left and used that loot that they got to move to guilds where they weren't stuck. Just made it a vicious cycle of gearing up new ppl only to have another leave and have to do it all over, no time for progress.

Super "fair" on those of us who stuck around right?
Was browsing the US forums and found the perfect solution for all those who defend ML

Your very own contract!!!

ahahahahaha!!!

https://imgur.com/FYvYsWv
30/07/2018 01:10Posted by Bullshock
Was browsing the US forums and found the perfect solution for all those who defend ML

Your very own contract!!!

ahahahahaha!!!

https://imgur.com/FYvYsWv


How sweet another LFR player with no idea what they are on about.
Let's assume that everyone who kills a boss is equally deserving of loot, regardless of performance. The priest who pulled the tank to safety and got a rank 1 log and the warrior who didn't buff and was combat ressed twice. Both put in the same effort, for the sake of argument. Perhaps the warrior did a really good job licking his keyboard or something.

Why then, is it not ok for the guild to tell someone to hand over their loot or face the bench or a kick? Aren't guilds allowed to use any criteria for inclusion or exclusion? Why must blizz force people into not even having to choice of giving away loot if they so choose? I can stomach mandatory PL but why is blizzard telling me who i can give my own loot to?

Suppose I dont hand over my loot and am kicked. The guild is within their rights to do that. Well I still have my "rightly deserved" loot, and no one was wronged here.

Of course, that scenario is going to happen anyway, just with items that aren't higher than the currently equipped ones.
30/07/2018 03:23Posted by Dankdestiny
Of course, that scenario is going to happen anyway, just with items that aren't higher than the currently equipped ones.


You wouldn't be able to, what I imagine Blizzard was thinking with the whole "if the item is of higher ilvl you can't trade it." To stop guilds holding places at ransom for loot, you can't trade if you have no ability to.

Hardly ideal, agreed. ilvl higher doesn't necessarily equate to an upgrade, especially in the case for trinkets, that are not bound to yet another stat stick. It's something that should be revaluated on an individual item basis.
30/07/2018 03:23Posted by Dankdestiny
Why then, is it not ok for the guild to tell someone to hand over their loot or face the bench or a kick?


Because that would defeat the point of this change, which is to give every participant an equal chance and stop guilds from manipulating people to give up a reward they worked for. If you are asking in a moral sense why it's not ok to try to take someone's reward from them, I can't help you understand because a sense of fairness is innate.

I do think that a higher item level should mean it's an upgrade though, if that's the metric being used for items. Blizz needs to work on how stats and trinket bonuses work for different specs so that people don't have to discard loot they don't need and can't trade.
well considering there is no set items in bfa I can not se a reason for masterloot to exist anymore.

only thing I se people whine about is, that progress gets slower due to it, but is that realy a bad thing at all, personaly I do not think so, if nothing else game should last little bit longer due to this, and just maby you will not se full clears in first week or so.

I also do not think anyone should have privildge over gear for what ever reasons there is, not even tanks or healers, becuse the person who maby is a little bit lower on dps due to gear, might become way better if he actualy get some gear, heck whit master loot, many guilds neglected people from getting gear due to some pure stopid reasons, like omg you died on boss no loot for you, omg your dps is not in par whit the rest doesnt matter you are 10 ilvls lower geard no loot for you.
and then not to forget the notorius split raids, where guilds managed to still get master loot in pugs due to having enough guild members on that raid, and those poor puggers never got any loot what so ever.

personaly I think Pl is better, all have an equal chance for loot, even if it can feel litte bit unfair at times, when you se 2 persons get lots of items and you only get gold lol, but next raid it can be the opposite again.

Master loot is fine to have, if you have raid leader and guild that use it fair, but unfortunately that is rare for so many reasons.
PL will show what guilds to avoid faster, when you notice people starting to demand you give your items away, that is if you can do it, I think wow might be in a better place whit no master loot, and toxic guilds will dispand over time or change their attitude, or they will be avoided like a plaque buy new recruits or puggers if they so need.
30/07/2018 06:29Posted by Reinha
Blizz needs to work on how stats and trinket bonuses work for different specs so that people don't have to discard loot


Pretty much. An example would be that for Outlaw Rogue, a Nighthold trinket was BiS throughout all of Legion. It added damage to your auto attacks, which if you were running Slice and Dice, is a boost to roughly half your overall damage. This trinket was in a shared loot table with Feral druid, for example.

Not only would the Feral see no real benefit from it (at least no way near comparable to an SnD Outlaw Rogue), it would also mean that in this new PL system, ANY trinket that said Outlaw Rogue might get from Antorus wouldn't be able to be traded. The latter being the biggest issue.

Now that doesn't really matter with BfA being so close, but applying the PL system retroactively would've caused quite an issue in this specific example.

This is something I imagine would only be isolated to trinkets, because everything else is a glorified stat stick now, but you're absolutely right that this is something Blizzard needs to keep a close eye on. Unless of course their plan is to homogenise trinkets in line with everything else and make them stat only.
@Darklight if you do not raid in mythic progress(going for cutting edge each raid tier and getting it regularly or at least 75% of the instance cleared) you have absolutly 0 saying power in the matter.And the reason has been explained so thoroughly you are not AFFECTED is it that hard to comprehend? Clearly it's easier than lfr mehanics that you can sit in.

PL IS Crap.Regardless how you want to put it. While people discuss here the Low probability of being screwed over by PL(which is actually pretty big) that 1% probability is 100 times more likely to happen then someone being ninjad in legion!!!.

There have been no legit ninja threads because legion fixed ML issue. 85% needed for ML means all pugs never got to use ML and they were using PL.
You know what type of threads were swarming the forums? Elitist pug threads where people were complaining about problems in the pug world.Guess what systems they use in the pugworld.. MEh PL which is a waste of people's time.

The problems PL bring are huge and can be circumvented by just allowing Upgrades to be traded. That's all. You can even add this option only in GUILDS. Cause you won't pug Cutting edge. The fact you can't trade gear is the biggest offender straight and period.

Last night we went to clear Argus again on mythic and brought 4 trials with us.Needless to say we killed him in like 2 hours because thoese trials were !@#$ing up 24/7 and 3 of them were dead by phase 2 always and were %^-*ing up the last phase with modules.
Guess who got the mount that we had seen only 5 times drop?You guess it a trial,was it fair? Hell no. But ofc we aren't monsters and the trial keeps his mount with no issues.But to tell me that he deserved it? He did not deserve the mount in any way shape or form.

But that's what this change is meant to do,give loot and in this case mounts to people failing and doing nothing,only being there to die .
@Darklight

Trinkets being the only thing PL is problematic for?

God stop speaking nub. Weapons ring a bell? Azerite armor which can't be traded?

Get a clue.
Biggest negative this change has is it makes it a negative to trial people while progressing.

Say you're in a 10/11M guild. You have your team pretty much locked for Argus - Everyone is prepped and ready to go. You get a trial in the guild, nice guy, you wanna bring him along.

... But doing so means dropping someone on each boss who has a chance with PL to get an upgrade for themselves, or someone else in the raid.

I like my Acrid Catalyst Injector example. You have 4 casters - 2 have mythic level ACI's, 2 have heroic level ACI's. With Master Loot, you can just bench the ones with 960+ trinkets, knowing that any trinket drops will go to the guys with lower trinkets anyway. With Personal Loot, you take all 4 casters because they're in your Argus team, and your new trial can't even get it - Even if he could, he couldn't trade it.

Which is why, again, I'll say I'm alright with Master Loot being used in Mythic-only. I've seen some good cases from heroic guilds why they should still have the option too, but for Mythic, it's just going to be tedious.

Add-ons are already been updated to show who hasn't looted the boss, and who has looted trade-worthy loot. All that loot is still going to be dished out using a Loot Council type system anyway - And any well run guild that doesn't do this is putting themselves at a disadvantage over the guilds who are doing this.

*Shrug*
Personal loot change is !@#$
29/07/2018 20:45Posted by Darklight
29/07/2018 20:39Posted by Noshecant
so u expect that u will get loot after first time showing on boss where guild was wiping 100 times and u think that u expect loot after 10 minutes


Team effort is team effort. If you were wiping 100 times, then those trial players you brought in clearly made a difference, if you killed it in the next attempt.

Dark Souls might be more up your alley. All the fun of raid-like encounters, with nobody to share the gear with.

they didnt and they will not be even take to raid they will be tested on lower difficulty to see if they deserve main raid and if they are doing well for their item level than they will get chance and i was talking about 100 wipes to make that boss on farm and u expect that will be on top of chart when you ("princes ) show in the raid
Sure sucks to solo old Mythic raids and get 0 loot for most bosses too.
30/07/2018 01:10Posted by Bullshock
Was browsing the US forums and found the perfect solution for all those who defend ML

Your very own contract!!!

ahahahahaha!!!

https://imgur.com/FYvYsWv

how big of a freaking idiot arent you?
I dunno. I agreed with most decisions Blizzard made lately, but this one is just puzzling. If they only wanted to stop split runs, they could restrict it to heroic, since split runs are done in heroic. There is no reason to remove ML from Mythic and its only used there.


You base that on what? got any proof?
30/07/2018 06:59Posted by Seffi
well considering there is no set items in bfa I can not se a reason for masterloot to exist anymore.

only thing I se people whine about is, that progress gets slower due to it, but is that realy a bad thing at all, personaly I do not think so, if nothing else game should last little bit longer due to this, and just maby you will not se full clears in first week or so.

I also do not think anyone should have privildge over gear for what ever reasons there is, not even tanks or healers, becuse the person who maby is a little bit lower on dps due to gear, might become way better if he actualy get some gear, heck whit master loot, many guilds neglected people from getting gear due to some pure stopid reasons, like omg you died on boss no loot for you, omg your dps is not in par whit the rest doesnt matter you are 10 ilvls lower geard no loot for you.
and then not to forget the notorius split raids, where guilds managed to still get master loot in pugs due to having enough guild members on that raid, and those poor puggers never got any loot what so ever.

personaly I think Pl is better, all have an equal chance for loot, even if it can feel litte bit unfair at times, when you se 2 persons get lots of items and you only get gold lol, but next raid it can be the opposite again.

Master loot is fine to have, if you have raid leader and guild that use it fair, but unfortunately that is rare for so many reasons.
PL will show what guilds to avoid faster, when you notice people starting to demand you give your items away, that is if you can do it, I think wow might be in a better place whit no master loot, and toxic guilds will dispand over time or change their attitude, or they will be avoided like a plaque buy new recruits or puggers if they so need.


Progress doesn't get slower, it stops. I've seen it happen, too many people like those in this thread who only care about their own loot and don't look at the bigger picture of it being a team effort. If those people end up being lucky, they leave and the team as a whole has to now gear up someone new because they cannot progress with 19. This is not easy with PL unless u limit recruits to an armor class that u have a lot of. Inevitably people get bored of doing this and leave too, thus creating a vicious cycle.

You're right that it's going to kill guilds, but it's not going to be those "toxic" ones. For those, nothing changes, they're still getting their loot, they don't care if people leave, people often leave guilds like that, it's not about the team or the progress it's about the loot and they're still getting it. It's going to kill those guilds that don't run with a roster of over 20, those that aren't sitting at the cutting edge, those that won't demand u share "your" loot or get kicked. The ones that might actually accept a new mythic raider and give them a chance (people like those in this thread who think personal loot is a fantastic idea and now they will suddenly be accepted everywhere and get all the loot). They're going to get tired of having people join, use them for gear and leave, tired of being stuck at the same boss forever and they're going to give up.
Why are you lying? I mean its downright impossible "not to get any gear" from bosses. Although I'm very against the enforced personal loot claiming that you dont get any gear from it is ridiculous. The only way this can happen if you're not a fully sized raid and you have pugged people which have gotten the gear which seems more likely.
31/07/2018 04:09Posted by Shinz
Why are you lying? I mean its downright impossible "not to get any gear" from bosses. Although I'm very against the enforced personal loot claiming that you dont get any gear from it is ridiculous. The only way this can happen if you're not a fully sized raid and you have pugged people which have gotten the gear which seems more likely.


It was clarfied above that this used to be the case after mists,and then it got changes into Wod. It's been cleared pl gives a minimum number of loot.

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