Vengeance tanking issues

Demon Hunter
Hello, I just tanked 3 horde dungeons on normal : Temple of Sethraliss, Atal´Dazar and The Underrot.

I am using the survivability/DPS build recommended by icy veins and I am wondering a couple of things:

- When using fracture: isn't it a waste to use 3 fracture procs for a 5 soul fragment spirit bomb since u just don't use the 6th soul fragment or is there a way to time it so that there is a 5 soul fragment spirit bomb but have 1 soul fragment stored away.

- While tanking, metamorhpis feels completely useless aswell as demon spikes. I had the most trouble in the underrot on the thrashpacks where the enemies use a boneshield around them, while you can indeed silence the cast, I was just not able to poperly tank through them when all of them had a bone shield active.

- I am currently using 2 traits of immolation aura (which gives me around 450 armour when it is active) but apart from this and demon spikes )and the obvious fiery brand which is mainly usefell on bosses) I feel that the tanking spec is severly lacking a decent amount of survivability.

- The selfsustain and healing from rend and spirit bomb feels very underwhelming.

I feel like it has become a sponge tank, you just try to heal back the damage you take because we are lacking mitigation on prolonged thrash packs which makes me wonder how vengeance tanks are one of the best tanks for mythic+.

If anyone has any tips or feedback, it is very much appreciated.
- using spirit bomb at 4 souls is fine and you shouldn't aim to use it at 5 souls. If it happens great, if not no biggie.

- Meta is a little underwhelming, demon spikes however is strong. I try to optimize uptime, while keeping 1 charge for when I know increased dmg is incoming.
Make sure you're using purge to dispel enemy shields!

- I've tanked every dungeon on heroic from 300 ilvl and had no issues. Remember to weave in soul cleaves, with your spirit bomb. Survivability is fine, we are one of the strongest tanks right now for dungeon content

- Remember our healing now works similar to how death strike works for dk. Meaning it's % based on the dmg taken over the previous x seconds. So spamming cleave / spirit bombs like we did during legion is a big no no!
Most of your tanking is now in fact taken care of by the healer, get used to it and get friends with a good one.

Pretty much all your abilities are ridiculously unrewarding to use, even DS which is fairly powerful when its up but due to its uptime, or lack thereof, all you really do is give the healer a second to breathe.
Ive never really enjoyed spirit bomb so im running with soul cleave and soulabsorb traits for shields and the breath of fire spell which I keep forgetting the name of. 1 minute CD with big burst heal and dps. Sometimes I still specc into spiritbomb but I just use it for the debuff then I go back to spamming soulcleave for the healing. I still outheal healers on some pulls just like in Legion. Not saying its better but works for me, try it and see :)
So the best idea is to do soul cleave after a big hit?

Also, how do you optimize the demon spike uptime?
Havent had any issues so far, tanked all dungeons on mythic. Most of the time I'm doing more healing and very good dps on trash. I do agree metamorph feels kind of useless, most of the time I dont even use it. For me its just a panic button if !@#$ hits the fan.
17/08/2018 21:58Posted by Iltrhandur
So the best idea is to do soul cleave after a big hit?

Also, how do you optimize the demon spike uptime?

Well, or spirit bomb.
Demon spikes has become more of a reactive ability rather than one you should pop whenever. Start of fight is usually a good idea and then again when you dropped a good chunk of hp or when CCs and interrupts and whatnot are on CD. I wouldn't suggest just cycling it.
I've been playing the same way that I did back in Legion and everything is working fine for me. Of course just paying attention to the pulls and hoping your group isn't too slow minded.
One thing about Demon Spikes i have noticed is that when running with Feed the Demon,you can basically spam your shear and when souls stack to 5,with each new soul that spawns you automatically consume one of the others cause souls cannot go above 5 at any given when spamming shear you can have a permanent 0.5 CDR on your demon spikes and a hefty 1 or 2 secs if you soul cleave and then go back to stacking it up.of course there are many other variables to factor into this whole idea,but im putting it out there for you all to contemplate on.Cheers
Tank in havoc till you get 120, honestly havoc at between 110-119 is ridiculously overpowered with its selfheals
I have tanked all dungeon mythic's so far without any issues. One guy mentioned how important the healer is and i fully agree, some classes perform better here than others (Disc).

Soul Barrier is excellent combined with Soul Cleave spam and Spirit bomb use during its cd.

Demon spikes should be on cd and use brand appropriately.
A lot of talk here about Demon Spikes being a reactive ability - which to me reads as if you're using it when a boss has already triggered an ability?

To me, Demon Spikes is very much a proactive ability, popping a cooldown during a boss big ability / hard hitting cast-time, so you know it's up before, and during a powerful ability.

I mean sure, pop it as well reactively if one too many trash mobs have been mis-pulled, but for me it's value to you and your healer is knowing when to have demon spikes up-time before (hence proactive) and during a big boss ability!
25/08/2018 19:19Posted by Boxer
A lot of talk here about Demon Spikes being a reactive ability - which to me reads as if you're using it when a boss has already triggered an ability?

I was thinking in terms of trash mobs since they're currently the heavy hitters, not the bosses. Obviously you keep your DS for when Yazma skewers you etc., but that pretty much goes without saying.
Can't you purge the bone armor? Can't remember the name of the ability
yeh, i use consume magic and arcane torrent to purge the armor
Just get agro with your sick aoe and jump away, the adds with boneshield is a joke and they do almost nothing when kited
I can't see your gear, but stack Versatility. It will reduce damage taken and increase your self-healing. Heroic should not be a problem with any gear as long as you stack Versatility. For Mythic. Stay away from Mastery gear since you'll be wasting a lot of stats if you do. Though you might want to save Mastery gear in your bank, if Blizzard suddenly decide to make Mastery the main stat. You never know.

So tanking low level content is fine. Talents and abilities add up and you can always just kite a little. Soul Barrier is very strong in HC Dungeons. Remember to use Consume Magic against those skeletons you couldn't interrupt. Watch that cooldown and purge them when able to. I interrupt 1 skeleton and purge the other(s) we couldn't interrupt.

Demon Spikes might feel useless, but it really helps against Physical Damage. Especially against crush abilities on bosses. Use it before they launch their big attacks, not after. Use an addon that can announce when you should use defensive abilities. That will be your best investment. Combining Demon Spikes with Soul Bomb can be really good in AoE pulls. I find that without Demon Spikes, the heal I get from Soul Bomb is very much wasted.
Sometimes it might be worth to sacrifice dps to save up on souls if you know big damage is just around the corner. For example crush abilities from bosses.

Some mobs are very nice to kite around instead of tanking, since you can always keep aggro with taunt and Throw Glaives (DHs threat builder) while you jump around like a monkey with Infernal Strike. Very true if you have a Frost Mage on board. When timed right against melee mobs, kiting (mobility) will be your best defense.
That is indeed not tanking, but it is what DH have. Even the best tanks will kite mobs on higher keystone mythics if they don't choose to crowd control dangerous mobs. It might not feel like tanking, but you still have to manage aggro so that mobs don't start scattering around everywhere.
Smart play can be hard to coordinate and execute in pugs, but the better you are at leading your group, the easier they'll understand your movements and what to do when you for example jump out.
Jumping out can also be used to help the healer stop healing you, and instead focus on your group if your group take a lot of damage. Not possible against all AoE mobs, but for the most part.

Vengeance is not one of the best myhtic tanks, but they are good mob kiters, nothing more. In a straight up face-to-face situation, DH is bottom last when tanking. What saves us in mythic dungeons is kiting and kiting alone. And this is the reason why Vengeance is shun in raids. You don't want Mr. Glass to be tanking face-to-face.
17/08/2018 01:00Posted by Iltrhandur

I am using the survivability/DPS build recommended by icy veins and I am wondering a couple of things:

I do wonder a couple of things as well about this guide.

Why the priority on haste over critical strike? Crit seems a decent defensive stat via the increase of parry.

What am I missing?
(And yes, Versatility > Parry from Crit)
10/09/2018 14:15Posted by Uzochi
Why the priority on haste over critical strike?

faster fracture charges, faster demon spikes charges, faster selfheals from faster rotation.

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