Saurfang is doing more harm than good for the horde...

General
10/08/2018 13:12Posted by Nimrhys
I think Sylvanas made a very good point, although it was entirely hypocritical, in that he seems to be fine with his people dying so long as it is done with honour.

Yes, that is orc culture. They don't mind the dying as much as they mind dishonor. Saurfang himself is angry that he's denied his "warrior death".

10/08/2018 13:15Posted by Veladre
10/08/2018 13:12Posted by Saphiramoon

War is one thing, genocide is another. Even old army dogs like Saurfang draw the line somewhere. What Sylvanas did broke him.


Yes, of course. But the "forced and fabricated war" argument doesn't stand, he had no problem with the war in itself. Quite the contrary in fact.

Curious to read the Good war novel too, as the Elegy one gave a lot more detail and fluency to the whole story than what happens in game, but it's from alliance side exclusively, but I tend to believe he was idd ok with the war itself.
10/08/2018 12:58Posted by Xianel
Daughter of the sea singlehandedly rekt your "trap" so.... cry? Haha enjoy your lost lordareon, Alliance won and ou haven o major city just as we dont. thats a fact.

No matter how many "traps" or "strategy" you are trying to justify your loss, its still loss. Cya


The way God tier Super Sayan Jaina/Elsa swoops in out of nowhere on a flying boat to somehow remove blight with an uber godlike frostnova is stupid and lazy writing. Shes entirely a safety plot device/plot armor. She always is when she teleports people out of what would be sure death. Shea literally been doing that since WC3.

Obviously Anduin and the rest of the Alliance brass has to survive, but could they really not have come up with something more interesting than that?
10/08/2018 11:08Posted by Gorecopter

He didn't chicken out, he just didn't agree that gassing everyone, including your own races, was a good idea...


Mid-battle is not the place or time for it though. Going AFK in middle of the battleground is just selfish and "edgy/emo". It was for his own "honor", not for the horde. Re-watch the conversation between Baine and Sylvanas at the end.

Baine didn't just /afk out because he understood it would only cause more horde to suffer/die.
10/08/2018 13:17Posted by Saphiramoon
Curious to read the Good war novel too, as the Elegy one gave a lot more detail and fluency to the whole story than what happens in game, but it's from alliance side exclusively, but I tend to believe he was idd ok with the war itself.


A Good War mainly focuses on Saurfang's involvement with the campaign, it's a very good read.
Basically (mild spoilers ahead) he is hesitant at first, but Sylvanas' arguments convince him and she tasks him with basically the entire planning and leading. To the point where he has plans written and in case something goes amiss he needs them delivered to Sylvanas, so she'll know how to pick the strategy up where he left it. Saurfang wants this war, plans it and executes it. But then he spares Malfurion, which was a key point in the strategy, and to compensate for that Sylvanas burns Teldrassil. When he asks why and she explains it to him, he even acknowledges her reason.
We could say this is Saurfang's war, but not Saurfang's burning, even though his negligence partly led to it.
Saurfang didn't abandon Horde - he abandoned Sylvanas. He didn't want to be part of her faul plays anymore but he chose to challenge Alliance in order to hold them down so others could run away.

None of his action harmed Horde at all. Malfurion's death shouldn't change original plans of capturing Teldrassil. It was Saurfang that was up for fighting for regular soldiers instead of wasting them on blight which Sylvanas planned to use anyway later.
10/08/2018 13:31Posted by Veladre
10/08/2018 13:17Posted by Saphiramoon
Curious to read the Good war novel too, as the Elegy one gave a lot more detail and fluency to the whole story than what happens in game, but it's from alliance side exclusively, but I tend to believe he was idd ok with the war itself.


A Good War mainly focuses on Saurfang's involvement with the campaign, it's a very good read.
Basically (mild spoilers ahead) he is hesitant at first, but Sylvanas' arguments convince him and she tasks him with basically the entire planning and leading. To the point where he has plans written and in case something goes amiss he needs them delivered to Sylvanas, so she'll know how to pick the strategy up where he left it. Saurfang wants this war, plans it and executes it. But then he spares Malfurion, which was a key point in the strategy, and to compensate for that Sylvanas burns Teldrassil. When he asks why and she explains it to him, he even acknowledges her reason.
We could say this is Saurfang's war, but not Saurfang's burning, even though his negligence partly led to it.


Sounds very much like his character. I still think that given the torch to put it at the base of Teldrassil, he wouldn't have done it. I also think he is broken by the events and does not believe in being capable to take the right decisions anymore. Getting captured kinda goes that way. Burning Teldrassil lost Sylvanas one of her best generals, and what she did at Undercity only deepens the cracks between her and the rest of the horde leaders. Meanwhile, alliance has more reasons for being united than ever. Taking deus ex machinas like the blight or jaina out, which army would you believe more capable of winning, a motivated one or one full of doubt that wonders when their leader will sacrifice them on her board. Sylvanas is applying her own morality to the war, but the other races don't share it.
10/08/2018 13:23Posted by Burden
10/08/2018 12:58Posted by Xianel
Daughter of the sea singlehandedly rekt your "trap" so.... cry? Haha enjoy your lost lordareon, Alliance won and ou haven o major city just as we dont. thats a fact.

No matter how many "traps" or "strategy" you are trying to justify your loss, its still loss. Cya


The way God tier Super Sayan Jaina/Elsa swoops in out of nowhere on a flying boat to somehow remove blight with an uber godlike frostnova is stupid and lazy writing. Shes entirely a safety plot device/plot armor. She always is when she teleports people out of what would be sure death. Shea literally been doing that since WC3.

Obviously Anduin and the rest of the Alliance brass has to survive, but could they really not have come up with something more interesting than that?


Back into the ground, useless corpse.

If there is something unoriginal, it's a zerg.. I mean zombies and Kerriga.. I mean Sylvanus.
10/08/2018 13:49Posted by Daha
<span class="truncated">...</span>

The way God tier Super Sayan Jaina/Elsa swoops in out of nowhere on a flying boat to somehow remove blight with an uber godlike frostnova is stupid and lazy writing. Shes entirely a safety plot device/plot armor. She always is when she teleports people out of what would be sure death. Shea literally been doing that since WC3.

Obviously Anduin and the rest of the Alliance brass has to survive, but could they really not have come up with something more interesting than that?


Back into the ground, useless corpse.

If there is something unoriginal, it's a zerg.. I mean zombies and Kerriga.. I mean Sylvanus.


No one is talking about anything being unoriginal, we are talking about lazy deus ex machina story telling which it seems like you have no idea what is. Back to the RP forums with you.
10/08/2018 12:53Posted by Xianel

try to have adult adn meotionally stable warchief and get back to me


That's funny coming from a member of the faction led by the boy king.
I am almost tempted to play my horde characters more, I love how they have added the divisions between the factions in the horde between those that respect honor and those that don't
10/08/2018 11:08Posted by Gorecopter
He struck down Anduin during the Battle for Lordaeron though. I don't see why he chickens out...

He didn't chicken out, he just didn't agree that gassing everyone, including your own races, was a good idea...

He is in that sense more "For the Horde" than Sylvanas who is willing to kill her own army and destroy the Undercity to prove nothing...


He diden't strike him Anduin wrynn down. The orc was beaten stop telling lies.
10/08/2018 11:32Posted by Martaan
Saurfang is a whiny !@#$%^.
This is WAR!


No this is hatred. You've made life your enemy. And that is a war you'll never win.
10/08/2018 14:15Posted by Türiel
10/08/2018 11:08Posted by Gorecopter
He struck down Anduin during the Battle for Lordaeron though. I don't see why he chickens out...

He didn't chicken out, he just didn't agree that gassing everyone, including your own races, was a good idea...

He is in that sense more "For the Horde" than Sylvanas who is willing to kill her own army and destroy the Undercity to prove nothing...


He diden't strike him Anduin wrynn down. The orc was beaten stop telling lies.
https://youtu.be/jSJr3dXZfcg?t=157

He smacked him good.
I found it odd that during the battle all I seemed to hear was for the forsaken. Which they tend to yell alot more then for the horde. Maybe a prelude to a choice to follow her or not the I'd love that option would make me return to the horde.
10/08/2018 14:18Posted by Shíroyasha
10/08/2018 14:15Posted by Türiel
...

He diden't strike him Anduin wrynn down. The orc was beaten stop telling lies.
https://youtu.be/jSJr3dXZfcg?t=157

He smacked him good.


The Light Protected him so he took zero damage it was just a knockback attack to him simmilar to the druids there do the things in the eye of the storm or the shamans. You'd know that if you were A Loyal Alliance member.
10/08/2018 14:27Posted by Türiel
10/08/2018 14:18Posted by Shíroyasha
...https://youtu.be/jSJr3dXZfcg?t=157

He smacked him good.


The Light Protected him so he took zero damage it was just a knockback attack to him simmilar to the druids there do the things in the eye of the storm or the shamans. You'd know that if you were A Loyal Alliance member.
Right .. right .. forgot talking to you is the same as talking to a wall.
10/08/2018 13:24Posted by Vilu
Baine didn't just /afk out because he understood it would only cause more horde to suffer/die.


No, Baine isn't tired of living. Saurfang obviously is and don't care what his warchief asks of him. He wants his warrior's death and even that is denied by Anduin as most of you already know.

If anyone does harm to the horde it's Sylvanas for making dictator like decision of purging or rather genocide of entire races. And she doesn't care who she takes down on the path to her death even if it's her own Horde army. Remember Wrath Gate? Why was it bad then to use the plague, Bad when Gilneas got plagued but Ok now???

This is exactly why Garrosh is held as one of the best warchiefs out there. He drew a line between Honorable combat and genocidal gas attacks.

Also, poison is a ladies weapon...
If the Forsaken are immune to this version of the plague/blight as well as all the others, then gassing UC was a perfect strategy, as after the war they can go back and reclaim it.
10/08/2018 14:29Posted by Shíroyasha
10/08/2018 14:27Posted by Türiel
...

The Light Protected him so he took zero damage it was just a knockback attack to him simmilar to the druids there do the things in the eye of the storm or the shamans. You'd know that if you were A Loyal Alliance member.
Right .. right .. forgot talking to you is the same as talking to a wall.


A wall of Righteousness.
10/08/2018 14:38Posted by Gorecopter
If anyone does harm to the horde it's Sylvanas


I feel like I'm pointing out the obvious, but technically, if it wasn't for the unpredictable intervention of Jaina, the Battle for Azeroth would be over before the expansion even came out.
Sylvanas' strategy led to the defeat of the night elves, and brought Malfurion, Anduin, Alleria and Greymane so close to death that they needed to be saved by unforeseeable bs.
Sylvanas brought the Horde closer to victory than any other warchief before her, in a matter of weeks.
How is this harming the Horde? The only one who actively and knowingly harmed the Horde until now is Saurfang, by sparing Malfurion.
"Malfurion would recover, and when he returned to battle, he would make the Horde pay in blood. Saurfang was certain of it."

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