Has the Horde been actually harmed by Sylvanas so far?

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Let’s assume Saurfang represents an average Horde citizen. His opinions are the ones the whole faction shares.

In the War of Thorns, the premise was one almost all the Horde races agreed on. Even guys like Saurfang.

And carried it out on his own terms. He was the one that planned it all.

Then, the burning of the tree.
Sure, Sylvanas killed a whole lot of elves. Did she directly harm the faction? She is the one that ended up taking the bulk of its consequences. The city the Alliance attacked is UC, and they were after her head.
About the trees destruction, even Saurfang admits he is marginally to blame for the necessity of that act.

Fast forward to Lordaeron. The Horde defends one of their cities.
Here Sylvanas does cross some line when she kills as some collateral damage some Horde soldiers and animates their bones to fight.

But still, this seems kind of minor or at least not enough to galvanise an outright revolution. I mean, Malfurion used the night elf spirits as a buffer that got ultimately destroyed under siege fire.

So, why would the Horde turn against Sylvanas as of now?
Because she violated some Orc code of conduct? The War of Thorns was Saurfangs making.

Because she is being mean to the Alliance?
Is it again about some obligation about caring more for their enemies, than they care for the Horde?

But here there are some big differences with the previous time something like this happened.
The most important one being that this time the Horde agreed on the premise that kickstarted the war.
As a faction no, the burning of tree killed elves not Horde. However, such an act would cause Horde lose it's reputation and thereby receive a heavy retaliation from Alliance and possible enemies from neutral organization. This could also demoralize Horde soldiers as they were meant to live up to certain values. And killing civilians isn't meant to be one of them.

As for Lordaeron the blighting own soldiers and raising them as undead indeed doesn't impact that much Horde as a whole however I believe it should definitely demoralize soldiers and lower their morale.

Horde took pride in taking out worthy foes, there is no pride in killing people that were not fit for fighting, slaying them in cowardly way or sacrificing soldiers in such manner. Because it's different falling in combat and being attacked by your own with biological weapon and then when your remains are desecrated and used to create undead monstrosity where Kalimdor Horde has very defined funeral customs.

Morale of the army is important part of warfare so I'm also interested if this would be addressed.

Recent cinematic shown that It was Saurfang that invokes admiration and loyalty, the soldiers are looking up to him and that he represents the values they cherish. It was Saurfang that made assault on Teldrassil possible. So now I wonder how Sylvanas will do without him, considering that she is commonly disliked.

But I think the biggest flaw of this story is that Alliance didn't give any solid reason to fight them. It would be all looking much better if narrative was that Alliance started first, or shown that Alliance is preparing assault.

So far it looks that Horde is doing heinous stuff because Screeching Queen is paranoid.

Also :

10/08/2018 18:02Posted by Eysion
The city the Alliance attacked is UC, and they were after her head.


Hmm I wonder why.
Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.
Why?
Because all Horde characters knows that they are characters of bad-written story where evil guys always loose, that's why.
10/08/2018 18:22Posted by Эйзенхорнус
Why?
Because all Horde characters knows that they are characters of bad-written story where evil guys always loose, that's why.


but according to the alliance we're winning ;) not only did their tree house burn down but they was denied the ruin of sludge too
10/08/2018 18:17Posted by Zakkaru
Hmm I wonder why.


I pointed it out because of this argument you also noted:

10/08/2018 18:17Posted by Zakkaru
However, such an act would cause Horde lose it's reputation and thereby receive a heavy retaliation from Alliance and possible enemies from neutral organization.


The one that 'suffered' the consequences was Sylvanas herself. Not the Horde as a whole. Even she, knew things would happen that way.

And the fact the Alliance doesn't blame the Horde is proven afterwards, when Anduin pardoned Saurfang.
He only blames Sylvanas.

10/08/2018 18:17Posted by Zakkaru
This could also demoralize Horde soldiers as they were meant to live up to certain values. And killing civilians isn't meant to be one of them.


So, the 'worst' we can argue here is that the Horde (to put it very blunt) had their feelings hurt?

Also, are we sure this is the case?
By writing spiteful characters like Lorash into the story, or soldiers like Mokra that hate the Alliance guts, Blizzard seems to be implying that the average Horde citizen does indeed hate the Alliance that much. Maybe what people assumed the Horde average folk thought, isn't the same as what they canonically think.
No, not harmed the Horde in any way.
if anything she's granted them a grand victory, and severely weakened the Alliance armies, almost claimed victory for the whole war.
and she would had gotten away with it too!

Were it not for Jaina and her meddling Arcane ship.

Anduin unlike his father severely underestimated Sylvanas.
There is a good reason why Varian never tried to claim lordaeron, it would just simply be suicidal.
10/08/2018 18:24Posted by Sepheris

but according to the alliance we're winning ;) not only did their tree house burn down but they was denied the ruin of sludge too


Like in all bad-written stories. Evil guys win until Mary Sue good hero saves Good guys. Desirable in deus ex machina style. Actually, in SoL we see the both - Mary Sue and Deus ex machina. This is a teaser of all BfA storyline. Stay online.
you might want to look up mary sue it dont mean what you think it does :)
Honour is extremely important to many races of the Horde, the orcs and tauren in particular. Many orcs believe that if they do not die with honour, they will not get to join their ancestors in the afterlife. For them, their honour is tainted by association with the Warchief's actions, seeing themselves as accomplices to her destruction of Teldrassil. To others, it has nothing to do with the afterlife, but instead on what legacy they leave behind when they are dead.

They wish to be remembered in song as brave warriors who bathed in the blood of the enemy's finest. To become a legend to inspire their descendants to acts of greatness for generations. Not to be remembered as weaklings who feared to fight the enemy on equal terms, but instead went for softer targets that cannot fight back and wouldn't pose a threat to their life even if they got lucky.

And while one could argue that it's stupid to be so obsessed with honour in a war that you let it get in the way of your chances of victory, honour has rarely had anything to do with intelligence. In the skirmishes leading to the Battle of Agincourt, there are records of French knights being taken captive by the English and then let go (because they couldn't feed them) on the condition that they turned themselves over on a later occasion to be held for ransom.

And many of them did. They could easily have just stayed at home after returning, safe in their castle on the other side of France where the english would never be able to reach them. But their martial pride and honour demanded that they keep their word, so they did.

To people like the orcs and the tauren (though there are always exceptions), their honour is more important than their lives, because their deaths have no meaning without honour. Fighting a war that has a negative impact on their honour hurts them more deeply than any physical wound ever could.
10/08/2018 18:39Posted by Эйзенхорнус
Like in all bad-written stories. Evil guys win until Mary Sue good hero saves Good guys. Desirable in deus ex machina style. Actually, in SoL we see the both - Mary Sue and Deus ex machina. This is a teaser of all BfA storyline. Stay online.


Horde Players probaly should delete all our characters since there won't be any actual win this time. Don' expect any twists or surprises from Blizzard here.
10/08/2018 18:42Posted by Nokhan
Fighting a war that has a negative impact on their honour hurts them more deeply than any physical wound ever could.


As i said, there are punctual acts that tarnish said honour.

But Saurfang agreed on starting it. Isn't that indicative of the fact that to some extent, they agree on its premise?

And even if we agree on the importance honour has for some Horde races, we then just circle again into this:

10/08/2018 18:27Posted by Eysion
So, the 'worst' we can argue here is that the Horde (to put it very blunt) had their feelings hurt?


And lets be clear, most Horde races aren't as honor-bound as orcs or tauren. And even they saw the logic in starting this.
@Nokhan
Honour...honour...honour...honour...honour...honour...honour...honour


Ally, can you explain me? During history of Warcraft orcs:
- drink demon's blood
- genocide drenei
- genocide humans during First War
- enslave Alextraza and her dragons
- make a deal with Black Dragons
- nukes Teramor
- destroy their own world

After all this stuff what's wrong with Sylvanas from the orc point of view? What specific kind of honour should be for race that followed Blackhand, Guldan, Ner'Zhul or Garrosh and not followed Sylvanas?
10/08/2018 18:59Posted by Эйзенхорнус
After all this stuff what's wrong with Sylvanas from the orc point of view? What specific kind of honour should be for race that followed Blackhand, Guldan, Ner'Zhul or Garrosh and not followed Sylvanas?


So much this. Preaching honour when all the past tells murder. Atleast Sylvanas is honest:
Honour means nothing to a corpse.
Dunno' why people are asking this. Losing Lordaeron is still massive, regardless if it came at a heavy price or not. She has been forced to flee to Kali' and given full control (besides like 2 zones) of Eastern Kingdoms to the Alliance.
@Eysion



As i said, there are punctual acts that tarnish said honour.

But Saurfang agreed on starting it. Isn't that indicative of the fact that to some extent, they agree on its premise?


Saurfang started it because Sylvanas knew that the Horde wouldn't trust her to lead them to a battlefield where their honour would not be compromised. The problem is not the war or the battles waged against the night elves. The problem is the Warchief's change of plans at the end to torch a city and cause the deaths of thousands of non-combatants. Especially when the city was already theirs because there was nobody left to oppose them.

Saurfang agreed to the war, because Sylvanas convinced him that peace would not last more than a few years and that there was still enough tension when war would break out that Azurite would without a doubt be used in some manner and lead to a war more destructive than any previous war. Therefor it would be in the Horde's best interest to start and finish the war before either side have time to develop such weapons.

But Saurfang never planned for Teldrassil to burn. Nobody did. Sylvanas just changed her mind after (for some contrived reason) forgetting everything she knew about Saurfang and expecting him to kill Malfurion while the druid was unable to fight back and when she learned Malfurion had escaped, she decided to torch the tree instead. To the warriors of the Horde who care about honour, Sylvanas made them accomplices to a form of warfare they never agreed to fight for her. They came to fight soldiers of the Alliance who could fight back. Instead they helped Sylvanas get to a point that enabled her to torch a city.

There is also the fact that she not only killed her own soldiers, but then proceeded to raise them as mindless undead, their corpses enslaved to her will. Even to the races who don't value honour as much as the orcs and tauren, this is an aberration. Especially when they see this done to people they know as friends and family.
10/08/2018 19:11Posted by Frozengrip
Dunno' why people are asking this. Losing Lordaeron is still massive, regardless if it came at a heavy price or not. She has been forced to flee to Kali' and given full control (besides like 2 zones) of Eastern Kingdoms to the Alliance.

But Azerite is mainly in Silithus, so on Kalimdor. Horde has now full control over Kalimdor and so easy access to azerithe... i believe this was planned by Sylv all along. Wipe out the Nightelfs, let them come to you, destroy the city just to insult them more and farm the azerite in kalimdor. I will just miss the sppoky tirisfal glade, here in Kalimdor we dont have Van Helsing Style castles, ruins or graveyards sadly
10/08/2018 19:15Posted by Nokhan
To the warriors of the Horde who care about honour, Sylvanas made them accomplices to a form of warfare they never agreed to fight for her. They came to fight soldiers of the Alliance who could fight back. Instead they helped Sylvanas get to a point that enabled her to torch a city.


Her expression didn’t waver. “This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back. When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now.”

He wanted to kill her. He wanted to declare mak’gora and spill her blood in front of Horde and Alliance alike.

But she was right.

A wound that can never heal. That had always been the plan. And Saurfang had failed to inflict it. The story of Malfurion’s miraculous survival would have spread among the armies of the Alliance as proof that they were blessed in their cause.


Saurfang himself acknowledges that it wasn't Sylvanas the one that pushed the Horde to do something dishonourable. It was something that became necessary.

Thats indicative.

Indicative of the fact this war wasn't instigated or created by Sylvanas. Not as something dishonourable.

She did in fact had the gall to take it to the bitter end if necessary.
But it was the Horde itself, not only her, the ones that agreed to go down the warpath.

By salvaging the situation and doing the things nobody else seemed able to, it seems that far from harming the Horde, Sylvanas is the only one willing to go all the way and actually try to win. Whatever it takes.

Honour dictates Teldrassil should've been spared. And that same kind of honour meant that all the Horde could or should just die after failing doing so.

10/08/2018 19:11Posted by Frozengrip
Dunno' why people are asking this. Losing Lordaeron is still massive, regardless if it came at a heavy price or not. She has been forced to flee to Kali' and given full control (besides like 2 zones) of Eastern Kingdoms to the Alliance.


Thats not harming the Horde. Thats mainly harming the Forsaken.

She isn't harming the faction, she is taking full bear of the consequences of her acts. Thats the opposite of dumping all the harm on her faction.
10/08/2018 18:17Posted by Zakkaru
Horde took pride in taking out worthy foes


Ok, my question is, what dictates what's honourable and what's not?
Because I can see how killing civilians isn't honourable, and I could pretend to get why Saurfang disliked hitting Malfurion in the bum.
But what's honourable in killing with war machines then? The guy who pulls the lever does really go all "woah, I killed 10 people who could do nothing against that flaming boulder, I can't wait to tell the story"? What's honourable in deploying rogues and assassins to take out settlements from the shadows before the main army even arrives?
War isn't honourable, that's just plain hypocrisy. Even when you don't straight out kill civilians, they're bound to suffer and die, at least some of them, when you take their lands, their homes and their means to survive.
"Ye but I didn't kill 'em".
Oh, and that makes you feel good about yourself?
Now don't get me wrong, I know burning civilians alive is quite shocking and can't be overlooked, all I'm saying is that this whole concept of honour in war is quite often completely hypocritical and self-righteous.
Not necessarily, you can act more honourably, or less, but a duel can be absolutely honourable, a war cannot. And this is a war of aggression.
I guess we can conquer and enslave the world if we fight honourably?
10/08/2018 19:15Posted by Nokhan
But Saurfang never planned for Teldrassil to burn. Nobody did. Sylvanas just changed her mind after (for some contrived reason) forgetting everything she knew about Saurfang and expecting him to kill Malfurion while the druid was unable to fight back and when she learned Malfurion had escaped, she decided to torch the tree instead.


To be completely honest, yes, she was kinda planning it. She just didn't want to do it this soon.
From A Good War:
"The kaldorei knew they were outnumbered. They knew their homeland was lost. Maybe a few of them knew in their hearts - just as she knew - that Darnassus would one day burn to ashes."

She probably planned to do it anyway at some later time, probably once the citizen where evacuated, as she explicitly expected they were already doing.

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