Has the Horde been actually harmed by Sylvanas so far?

Story
Prev 1 2 3 5 Next
She is ruining entire Horde story single-handedly and making majority of horde players feel like alienated in their own home.

How can she harm horde more then that? It makes zero sense that horde leaders are not done a Coup d'état yet and took her head.Slyvanas needs horde more then Horde needs Slyvanas at this point.If it wasn't for some terrible writer up there who got a hard-on for Slyvanas, we wouldn't even have her as the Warchief, because she as the Warchief is the most forced thing ever that is happened to the Horde.
10/08/2018 18:42Posted by Nokhan
Honour is extremely important to many races of the Horde, the orcs and tauren in particular.


No it isn't. If it was, they would live up to it.
10/08/2018 19:37Posted by Eysion
Thats not harming the Horde. Thats mainly harming the Forsaken.


Which are her main people. She has already kicked up dirt with the Tauren and Orcs, now she flees over to their main continent while the a lot of her forces in Eastern Kingdoms are being invaded from all sides. Not exactly a good position to be in.

10/08/2018 19:37Posted by Eysion
She isn't harming the faction, she is taking full bear of the consequences of her acts. Thats the opposite of dumping all the harm on her faction.


Her faction are already questioning her, the position she is in is awful. Even if she wins the war and wipes out the Alliance I could 100% guarantee you that her members would instantly turn on her. The best outcome for he in this war is to make sure no one wins it, it goes on for a long time without either side making peace nor give any of her member factions a chance for rebellion.

10/08/2018 19:29Posted by Laochan
But Azerite is mainly in Silithus, so on Kalimdor. Horde has now full control over Kalimdor and so easy access to azerithe... i believe this was planned by Sylv all along. Wipe out the Nightelfs, let them come to you, destroy the city just to insult them more and farm the azerite in kalimdor. I will just miss the sppoky tirisfal glade, here in Kalimdor we dont have Van Helsing Style castles, ruins or graveyards sadly


It is for now but we see it spreading throughout the world. They might have the bulk of it but it is useless if you can't use it on anyone. Not only that but the Night Elf guerrilla is growing and the Horde has lost Darkshore and Ashenvale. The Night Elves (to my knowledge) still has Feathermoon which would require another bloody assault to take and the Exodar. While the lack of the Vindicator is annoying it can still be brought back.

Not only that but she had to worry about not pissing off all the neutral factions in the process (Argent Crusade, Cernarion Circle, Earth Ring, hell even Khadgar will come back if she dangers the world enough where he has to intervene). She is treading on egg shells and one major wrong move and it'll be over.
10/08/2018 19:47Posted by Incu
It makes zero sense that horde leaders are not done a Coup d'état yet and took her head


Ok.

Why? Why would the Horde leaders feel the need, storywise speaking, to overthrow her?

10/08/2018 19:47Posted by Incu
She is ruining entire Horde story single-handedly and making majority of horde players feel like alienated in their own home.


How?
Which are her main people. She has already kicked up dirt with the Tauren and Orcs, now she flees over to their main continent while the a lot of her forces in Eastern Kingdoms are being invaded from all sides. Not exactly a good position to be in.


She is dealing with the consequences of her actions. And her Forsaken still support her for it.

Even Saurfang ended up conceding that the burning was a necessary evil.

How is that harming the faction?

Her faction are already questioning her


No, they are not.
Saurfang started the War of Thorns. Lordaeron was the consequence of Sylvanas being the only one willing to take it to the bitter end instead of simply bailing out of the nasty stuff that came with it (Like Saurfang did with Malfurion).

The Horde isn't questioning her, because as far as we now, they supported the idea of starting this war.

Even if she wins the war and wipes out the Alliance I could 100% guarantee you that her members would instantly turn on her.


Why? In which way did she harm the Tauren, blood elves, goblins, Pandaren, Trolls, orcs, Nightborne, or Highmountain?

Because she hurt someones feelings by doing what had to be done? (Those are Saurfangs words by the way).

That makes her worse than the Alliance that quite literally rather kill those races?
10/08/2018 19:54Posted by Frozengrip
Not only that but she had to worry about not pissing off all the neutral factions in the process (Argent Crusade, Cernarion Circle, Earth Ring, hell even Khadgar will come back if she dangers the world enough where he has to intervene). She is treading on egg shells and one major wrong move and it'll be over.


Neutrals won't interfere. If they would, the Argents would've purged those corpses from the face of Azeroth ages ago.

Also, if Teldrassil isn't a wrong move, what is?
10/08/2018 20:02Posted by Cyndane
Also, if Teldrassil isn't a wrong move, what is?


From the Horde's point of view it wasn't a wrong move.

Saurfang agreed to attack it. And then conceded that maybe burning it was the prize to pay for not carrying through and doing what needed to be done.
10/08/2018 20:06Posted by Eysion
From the Horde's point of view it wasn't a wrong move.


Yep, even the actual burning in the novella is presented as "our only chance of winning" or something.
10/08/2018 19:51Posted by Cyndane
10/08/2018 18:42Posted by Nokhan
Honour is extremely important to many races of the Horde, the orcs and tauren in particular.


No it isn't. If it was, they would live up to it.


The only reactions we got so far are from Baine + Saurfang and both of them detest what is happening.

So it seems they are living up to it while looking a way out.Just because blizzard didn't give you some instant revenge story doesn't mean all horde is suddenly evil or honorless.

Getting pretty tired to explain that, now./sigh.
Yes, her reckless leadership has lead to the Deaths of countless Horde citizens and soldiers.

Abandoning the Alliance on the Broken Shore and not establishing diplomatic relations to explain and improve the situation lead the Alliance to consider her an enemy, prompting the attack in Stormheim.

Refusing to explain her intentions with Azerite and not monitoring Gallywix's activities in Silithus in a careful manner lead to the deaths of muh "innocent golbin miners".

Starting a war with the Alliance without even trying diplomacy, plus attacking Teldrassil from the mainland rather than by sea lead to even more Deaths.

Burning Teldrassil left the Horde without hostages to word off the Alliance, and all but forcing them to retaliate by attacking the Undercity.

Not preemtively using the blight on the shore to prevent the Alliance Access to Tirisfal.

Not surrendering to the Alliance to stop the war.

Blighting her own soldiers.

To name a few.
10/08/2018 20:18Posted by Osirenne
Abandoning the Alliance on the Broken Shore and not establishing diplomatic relations to explain and improve the situation lead the Alliance to consider her an enemy, prompting the attack in Stormheim.


This logic is... well, it's not even logic.
The Alliance could have established diplomatic communications just as well as the Horde, especially if they wanted to attack.
And the attack in Stormheim was because Genn had an itch.

10/08/2018 20:18Posted by Osirenne
Not surrendering


LOL ok you're just trolling at this point
Abandoning the Alliance on the Broken Shore...


This words greatly explain why Sylvanas was right. If you are not serving the Alliance, if you are not dying for the Alliance needs, if you are not taking Alliance needs higher than lives of your soldiers you are declared as traitor. Horde has no chance establish a peace with Alliance.
Okay, one chance is - all hordies should commit mass suicide.
10/08/2018 20:18Posted by Osirenne
her reckless leadership has lead to the Deaths of countless Horde citizens and soldiers.


It was Saurfang the one that planned and actually LEAD the Horde in the starting events for this war.

10/08/2018 20:18Posted by Osirenne
Abandoning the Alliance on the Broken Shore and not establishing diplomatic relations to explain and improve the situation lead the Alliance to consider her an enemy, prompting the attack in Stormheim.


Before the Storm:

"If the Horde had stayed, not only would've they failed to hold the flank, but also by not retreating on time, their whole army would've been decimated by the demons. Abandoning Varian would always haunt Sylvanas, but she knew that if they had stayed, they would've perished to the last soldier".

Abandoning the Alliance didn't harm the Horde. It actually saved most their army.

Genn attacked Sylvanas because of Gilneas, not because of the Broken Shore. And that happened before she became actual Horde Warchief.

10/08/2018 20:18Posted by Osirenne
Refusing to explain her intentions with Azerite and not monitoring Gallywix's activities in Silithus in a careful manner lead to the deaths of muh "innocent golbin miners".


The Horde faction isn't obliged to explain anything to the Alliance.

10/08/2018 20:18Posted by Osirenne
Starting a war with the Alliance without even trying diplomacy, plus attacking Teldrassil from the mainland rather than by sea lead to even more Deaths.


Saurfang and the rest of the Horde leaders agreed to start the war. They all understood the reasons for it.

10/08/2018 20:18Posted by Osirenne
Burning Teldrassil left the Horde without hostages to word off the Alliance, and all but forcing them to retaliate by attacking the Undercity.


Saurfang conceded that burning the tree became something necessary after he failed to do his duty and kill Malfurion.
And attacking UC became a consequence for Sylvanas alone, not for the Horde faction.

10/08/2018 20:18Posted by Osirenne
Not surrendering to the Alliance to stop the war.


Hahaha.....

Sylvanas is harming the Horde because she didn't surrender to the Alliance in a war that the most honour-bound leader of the Horde faction agreed to start.
Right.

10/08/2018 20:18Posted by Osirenne
To name a few.


You just named a few reasons that suspiciously sound like stuff that Horde people should revolt against because they harm the Alliance. Not because it harms them.
10/08/2018 20:25Posted by Эйзенхорнус
Abandoning the Alliance on the Broken Shore...


This words greatly explain why Sylvanas was right. If you are not serving the Alliance, if you are not dying for the Alliance needs, if you are not taking Alliance needs higher than lives of your soldiers you are declared as traitor. Horde has no chance establish a peace with Alliance.
Okay, one chance is - all hordies should commit mass suicide.


You know, it all kind of boils down to this.

It currently seems that the reasons the Horde should be turning against Sylvanas, is because she is making the Alliance uncomfortable.

Or.

Because her notions about taking the conflict to its bitter and sometimes nasty end, hurts certain 'feelings' (to put it bluntly) for some Horde factions.
If losing it's soul counts.
And a capital
And a faction leader
and who know how many soldiers

Honour dictates Teldrassil should've been spared. And that same kind of honour meant that all the Horde could or should just die after failing doing so.


I'm sorry, I thought your point was that you didn't understand how the Horde felt Sylvanas' actions had a negative impact on them, yet here you state exactly why. Because their honour dictates that Teldrassil should have been spared, and thus their honour has now been compromised. Unless I've completely missed the mark on what your thread is about, you just answered your own question.
the horde is an alliance based on survival and not honor. first we win and assure the survival of future generations, then we reclaim our honor
Ok.

Why? Why would the Horde leaders feel the need, storywise speaking, to overthrow her?


- She just dragged all of them into a war they didn't planned for.
- She used horde troops to kill civillians and children, something even the Orcs detest doing and got PTSD because of it from ages ago.
- She is still using horde for her means of whatever she is planning.(which is probably for her and forsaken's own future).
- Hell, she actually hates the living and she views it as a mere tool, as an undead.What the hell more reasoning you want still :p

How naive can you be to trust a character like Slyvanas in any story setting, it's screaming as ''bad idea'' loudly.
10/08/2018 20:37Posted by Huopoh
If losing it's soul counts.
And a capital
And a faction leader
and who know how many soldiers


Is all these at Sylvanas feet?

Horde soul? What is that?
Is it defined by orcs? Tauren? Trolls? Forsaken?

A capital? It was her capital. And one she lost due to apparently having the commander that agreed to start this war, having last minute cold feet.

A faction leader? It was him the one that decided to just leave. He left, because somehow he realized to late that the war he had helped start, MAY have a little bit of nastiness to it if they were to actually win.

Soldiers? Every Horde general was fine with losing soldiers when they marched into Ashenvale. How is that solely Sylvanas fault if they agreed to do that too?
The one that 'suffered' the consequences was Sylvanas herself. Not the Horde as a whole. Even she, knew things would happen that way.


Then why would Horde lose countless of soldiers just to protect one maniac?

But to be honest that is what Anduin thinks. You don't have any guarantee that other leaders wouldn't demand full retaliation for Teldrassil.

10/08/2018 18:27Posted by Eysion
So, the 'worst' we can argue here is that the Horde (to put it very blunt) had their feelings hurt?

Also, are we sure this is the case?


Not really. Let's make a list of facts.

- The main objective was to capture Teldrassil.
- it was meant to hold possible Alliance aggesion and give Horde upper hand in Azerite control.

What Sylvanas did was to burn the Teldrassil killing civilians. The major bunk of soldiers was in Silithus.

So now besides culling number of civilian reputation what Sylvanas achieved was:
- losing Undercity
- putting Orgrimmar on constant pressure attack, because the military of night elves returned
- demoralizing soldiers

When it comes to Lordaeron battle. You're forgetting that Horde had over loses than Alliance. She managed to mitigate the loses, and set some traps, but in the end it was all in vain.

She lost her Stronghold and no longer she will be able to use the tactics she used before. Horde won't allow to use blight on their territories.

She lost chunk of her forces to blight needlessly, as she planned to launch blight explosives anyway. She wasted more troops than Alliance lost.

She lost Azerite war machine because she sent it in the middle of the field instead of shooting from a far to destroy siege towers.

She also lost her most prominent general because of Teldrassil and the incident with blight.
It was thanks to Saurfang that she managed to reach Teldrassil. So I really wonder how will she keep hold over Hordie armies from now on.

So she lost 2 cities, vast number of army for questionable gains, demoralized army, antagonized entire faction and is in drastic need of getting powerhouse.

Because Horde always had numeric disadvantages.

10/08/2018 18:59Posted by Эйзенхорнус
Ally, can you explain me? During history of Warcraft orcs:
- drink demon's blood
- genocide drenei
- genocide humans during First War
- enslave Alextraza and her dragons
- make a deal with Black Dragons
- nukes Teramor
- destroy their own world


Really? Orcs were tricked to drink the demon blood and most of artrocities were comitted because of said enslavement. But once the blood haze was lifted, orcs were deeply affected by their own actions.

Saurfang is living example of it as pictures of Draenei genocide are haunting him for his entire life. Plenty of orcs had severe mental problems because of that.
Thrall's Horde was meant to cut any connection to stuff like that. now they don't have excuse of being enslaved, their own Warchief ordered onslaught and changed very plans they all signed for.

But it comes to Theramore Horde soldiers were only displeased with usage of nuke, but I still consider that as valid military target. Jaina had whole expansion to quit Theramore offence and she had what she asked for.

10/08/2018 20:06Posted by Eysion
Saurfang agreed to attack it. And then conceded that maybe burning it was the prize to pay for not carrying through and doing what needed to be done.


That was stupid idea to begin with. Malfurion's death shouldn't change original plan.
His death would make occupation of Teldrassil even worse. Sylvanas was extremely naive that his death would break the spirit of nelves. Only fool that doesn't know them could believe it would work.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum