Why can we STILL not scale raids properly?

Dungeons & Raids
For the last THREE expansions now, you have released raids where it's almost impossible to complete the raids in a 10 man (give or take) group. Last night I witnessed a whole load of my friends list tell me the exact same thing - That we must be doing something wrong because for them in their 25 man group, killing Zek'voz or Vectis was a breeze, whereas a 340 geared 10 man group that attempts it can't even make it past 60%. No we weren't doing something wrong, apparently, it's just yet again the (raid)Dev team failing at their jobs.

This is getting to be beyond a joke now. First you disallow Mythic 10 man so you can intoduce this garbage flex system that doesn't work, which basically crippled my small guild on its low population server and forced people to raid elsewhere. Yes you literally are killing guilds over this. And then you continue to release raids that are so badly overtuned for small groups that they are borderline impossible. Do you even test this stuff with small groups? At all? I find it hard to believe you did judging by my experiences last night.

Just call it what it is, It's not flex if you are forced to take 20+ people. It wasn't 'flexible' when you made us do 3 runes on Odyn with 10 people, and 3 runes with 25 people either.

I'm sorry if I sound angry but I really am, I'm honestly so frustrated by this problem still being present 5 years after the introduction of flex, I could cry. Dev team you need to get your act together on this, because you're wasting peoples time and you're ruining friendships over what should be very basic calculations and if statements.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveWoW/comments/9d3f7y/10_man_uldir_scaling_issues/
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17613471621#post-1

My post from two years ago, every new raid, the same issue just repeats itself.
Exactly...

Our group (10) went in, one shotted the first 3 bosses without much trouble. But then came Vectis. It instantly became clear that having 2 healers wasn't gonna cut it. So we raised the group to 13 people. Adding 2 dps and 1 healer. It went better but still far from great.

It's weird that the scaling is so off per boss. Where Mother and Taloc were quite fun to do with 10 man. Vectis was a clear tell that it's not possible.

Shocking part is that this is tested on Alpha and Beta and these concerns were made but no one seemed to care and just pushed it live
Seriously, if the Omega vectors/infections and amounts of stuff to dodge in the movement phase scaled with group size, it would be fine.
Scaling has been a problem far longer than Flex has been around. Ever since they introduced 10man and 25man versions of the same raid in WotLK, Blizzard have been trying desperately to balance it, without success.

That said, I can understand how hard it is to balance scaling in the raids, and it's far from just "basic calculations and if statements".
06/09/2018 19:36Posted by Midnightfist
That said, I can understand how hard it is to balance scaling in the raids, and it's far from just "basic calculations and if statements".


So difficult it takes them 5 years and they still can't get it right? I watched my guild basically evaporate over the years because we're on a low pop server - I could consistently get enough for a 10 man, reliable people, but not much more. You recruit a couple people, only one of them shows to the raids, then someone goes on holiday and you don't have a bench because hey low pop you're barely holding together 10-15, when people don't show for raids you don't have replacements because people don't want to sit each week to be backup - then someone leaves about once a month "hey guys im gonna go raid with my friends guild" etc etc. Talk to people about transfering so I don't have to spend entire days semiAFK spamming trade chat for recruits - "I've got 10x characters, I can't afford 10 server transfers" ... and Blizzards answer to all this, hey just recruit more people...

Was a problem all through Legion. Heroic KJ was one of the worst designed fights they've done in a really long time. "Don't have a bunch of classes that can immune through a huge damage spike? Well, don't raid then." However now with Uldir this issue has changed to even having problems completing NORMAL?!

Since the change we haven't been able to do challenging content b/c when we can fill 20 spots, its the core 10 plus 2-3 other good players and 7-8 people getting carried.

Our guild fell apart this last expansion right after antorus dropped. We had been raiding together since BC. If 10 man mythic was still around im sure we would still be together as our main problem each new raid was fielding enough good players on low pop.

06/09/2018 19:36Posted by Midnightfist
Ever since they introduced 10man and 25man versions of the same raid in WotLK, Blizzard have been trying desperately to balance it, without success.


WotLK was amazing. Used to nail heroic 10m weekly, the loot wasn't as good as 25m heroic but we had so much fun doing difficult content together it didn't matter much and the loot was atleast better than 25m normal. Take me back to those days and let me hear those nerd screams when we finally killed Sindragosa HC.
40 man too much, 25 man too much, 20 man too much, what makes you think 10 will not be too much for your guild after a little while?

Flex (bugs aside) will never ever be balanced to be equally difficult with different raid sizes. It is literally impossible.
06/09/2018 12:10Posted by Gorecopter
But then came Vectis. It instantly became clear that having 2 healers wasn't gonna cut it. So we raised the group to 13 people. Adding 2 dps and 1 healer. It went better but still far from great.

We had 16 people. 2/4/10 and best we managed was 30% but by that time is was near to impossible to continue with so many people having 10-14 stacks.
Add to this that you get 3 Omega dots in a 10m, 16m, 30m group and in a group of 16 we had double and even triple dots on a single player so many times.

Double dots could be healed using def's and cd's and focus healing, but triple.... nah was insta death pretty much.
Also we had players pretty much getting double dots back to back (had them, jumped off, then got double again, jumped off, then again got double).

It honestly felt bad.

BTW on fetid, the eggs you need to kill, what was that bit like for you guys ?

06/09/2018 17:53Posted by Kethera
Seriously, if the Omega vectors/infections and amounts of stuff to dodge in the movement phase scaled with group size, it would be fine.


This then however would create the perfect group size cut off :/

07/09/2018 13:04Posted by Trmon
Flex (bugs aside) will never ever be balanced to be equally difficult with different raid sizes. It is literally impossible.


Then either contrary to what I said above, tuning it at certain cut offs may actually be better or alternatively go back to having a couple of fixed group sizes.

I like the idea you can inv a friend for a boss they need or to help, hangout etc. But if this is going to be at the cost of always having to pug large numbers simply to overcome tuning oversights, I can easily live without it.
Did all of Normal on wednesday with my guild. 30 people in the raid, was honestly a complete breeze until mythrax and then ghuun. Vectis in particular was a joke.

You really get 3 debuffs regardless of raid size? wot
More like Rektis on 10-15 size
If its hardcoded to have 3 debuffs always, why not base its damage depending number of players in raid? More players, more damage dealt. Ignore numbers here, but example:

Let's say, 1 stacks makes player 5k damage per second in raid-size of 30 players. For 15-man, it would be more like 3k.

They'll balance out each others; smaller raid would still be dealing with more debuffs with each player, but it would be easier to heal.

Bigger raids would have more spread-out debuffs, but due having more healers, they'll have easier time managing HP-balance.

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