Future of Night elves & the Night Warriors

General
26/09/2018 13:03Posted by Kelibor
and demon hunters playing a role tooo.


Demon Hunters are solely affiliated with the Illidari. Any lore progression will involve both Kaldorei and Sin'dorei.

The only Night Elf Demon Hunters who might not associate themselves with the Illidari act independent (neutral) and hold no affiliations for the Alliance.

26/09/2018 13:03Posted by Kelibor
And I hope we will see more Kaldorei arcane stuff


The Highborne receive tid-bits and they might get something more for Queen Azshara, but I can't see them getting anything meaningful once Azshara is dealt with.
She is relative to their story and their core. Once she's done, what else is there? Unless Blizzard creates another timey-wimey expansion where we get back to Kalimdor under the Kaldorei Empire, but I highly doubt that will happen, since WoD was a failure.
Demon Hunters are solely affiliated with the Illidari. Any lore progression will involve both Kaldorei and Sin'dorei.

The only Night Elf Demon Hunters who might not associate themselves with the Illidari act independent (neutral) and hold no affiliations for the Allianc

That is 100% and that is part of the problem. The illidari can still have blood elves, in fact will always do now, but the main progression of the demon hunters should actually feature with the night elves a lot more, would be cool to see blood elven illidari helpign them too, but it's a night elf thing in a night elf world.

The Illidari however are their own thing, just like the ebon blade, however it would be nice to see a lot more involvement of them in night elven affairs. I think they can and should show up in night elf stuff alot more than they show up in blood elf stuff.

But they are the perfect example of a night elf stuff exported and playing a major role in anything but night elf stuff so that it doesn't even seem connected to them anymore.

It's fine for them to play important roles also, but when they keep taking all the special things of night elves or the alliance and making them only play neutral stuff, it's like they are stripping away their lore, leaving only the same narrow unattractive stuff, while very interstingly enough the best of the night elf stuff in-game, like Suramar and the nightborne is fine with going horde who don't need an elven city they already got or powerful elven casters they already got, while night elves are desperately in need with being more attractive, and have the lore for it, just they're kept at arms length over it.

26/09/2018 13:41Posted by Minairia
The Highborne receive tid-bits and they might get something more for Queen Azshara, but I can't see them getting anything meaningful once Azshara is dealt with.
She is relative to their story and their core. Once she's done, what else is there? Unless Blizzard creates another timey-wimey expansion where we get back to Kalimdor under the Kaldorei Empire, but I highly doubt that will happen, since WoD was a failure.

Yeh, right, remember Suramar is NIGHT ELVEN..not was, is, the nightborne are a night elven group of casters, and the best they've done for the race since wow was released, and though they didn't have to, they took all of that over to the horde. The only night elf visit in 14 years, i don't think they will do another specatacular night elven city - they already have done, or write so focused a story on night elven lore as they have already done so in 7.0 , the only recourse is to write this properly into the night elf faction despite the horde having nightborne only.

This is not difficult, nor impossible here is one way my favourite hunter described it.

18/09/2018 18:39Posted by Variyel
I don't think you appreciate how neat the solution is.

It is not nightborne on both sides because the ones who join the alliance become night elves. This allows the alliance to have had a role in the city and people they just saved and the night elves to have their kin and heritage play a role as one of them. Only the horde effectively get nightborne as only the alliance get void elves.

Or let me rephrase: Only the horde effectively get night elves in the form of nightborne as only the alliance get blood elves in the form of void elves

Alliance get a remnant of blood elves and horde get a remnant of night elves
Both the alliance and horde who both helped the night elves of Suramar get a part in their future. The horde get this with a small group of the nightborne as they are thenalliance get this with a larger group of nightborne that get restored to kaldorei.
The night elves gain their city from the lore back and have 1 elven city, the horde keep Silvermoon also having one elven city.
The forsaken get Icecrown Citadel, and some surrounding areas as well as Theramore.
Void elves get to bunk with another alliance race, nightborne get to bunk with a horde race.

When void elf fortunes improve, nightborne fortunes will improve.

An Example of How It Could Go Down
Rough Overview
The nighborne who sided with the horde got kicked out when things came to a head (if blizzard doesnt want some sort of co-existence) The alliance defecting nightborne elves in Suramar are all night elves now, the arcand'or fruit reversed the effect of the nightwell changes, a combination of druids and mages in an attempt to accelerate the balancing effect and eradicate any addiction ended up accelerating the effect in many shal'dorei who were born kaldorei and eaten the fruit first, as it was most (not all) of those who had been in the nightfallen rebellion that joined the kaldorei in disgust over the War of Thorns, and they are the ones that had been with the fruit the longest, it was they who changed.

However many of the city elite who had never faced starvation and only joined the revolt when it was clear the rebels would win, these and a few power orientated former rebels favoured the Horde, liking their different appearance, some of these who had started changing were able to counter and stop the acceleration, however, many of the younger shal'dorei born naturally nightborne had no such visible effect from the Arcan'dor, besides the majority of them preferred the blood elven vision, having never experienced the grandeur of the kaldorei empire at it's height, and only seeing the kaldorei in their war torn state, adopted the contemptable view of the sin'dorei for their siring race and rejected any interaction with them, instead adopting the view that they were a stain on the elven legacy and an ugly reminder of their fallibility. As such when the news of the genocide of elf kind in Kalimdor came, news that shocked and appalled many of the older original generation of nightborne born kaldorei, most of the younger nightborne applauded and felt inspired by the strength of their new allies much to the horror of their new leaders who had hoped the victory over Elisande and the legion had inspired all their kin to their nobler ancestral disposition. Whiles some of the powerful elite vying for leadership and hoping for horde help to do so, also took the side of the horde, much to the disgust of the others. And thus an irreversible divide occurred.

Horde side Story: Sylvanas sensing Thalyssra and her inner circles wavering resolve for the vision of the horde after the War of Thorns, set in motion a plan to inspire loyalty to the horde amongst a wavering nightborne populace. Killing Thalyssra would make her a martyr and the death of any of her council members might drive her further into the clutches of the kaldorei and cost her the entire race, a powerful new ally. Perceiving she could not sway her because of her insufferable values, Sylvanas and some concerned blood elves who reported on sentiments hatched a plan to discredit Thalyssra, and portray her and the ruling former rebels who were the cities new leaders, as weak and unfit for leading their people. They would say Thalyssra and her group were good for the legion conflict, but not to lead the people forward to the greatness that was their birthright, Thalyssra was weak, and much like the weak Kaldorei, she unwisely drained the nightwell that was a powerful tool that no longer crippled their race and made the shal'dorei dependent on non-elves and savages, needing the support of uncivilized allies. Elisande after all, was the one who truly saved the city, paying for her life to use the nightwell to destroy Gul'dan while Thalyssra hid behind outsiders (like Malfurion did) , not trusting in the strength of the shal'dorei.

Sylvanas was pleased to find a strong and vocal support amongst some of the cities elite, vying for position and power, but the most fervent came from some of the young. Unbeknown to her, however it also caused the opposite effect on many of the lower class, most of the original generation and most of the the nightfallen rebellion supporting elite.

Now young nightborne go forth to show their allies the strength and resolution of their race and are eager to lend their extraordinary intellect and skill to bringing conquest and victory for the horde.

Alliance side: The actions of the horde were indeed causing Thalyssra to waver and her heart was not in any of her warchiefs new schemes and orders, however the catalyst for change came from her closest friend Ly'leth Lunastre who was appalled at the behaviour of their new allies . They had joined a people they felt shared the same value for life but with a bold out take, not murderers of innocents and elves who had done no wrong but valued peace. When news of some of the horrors came, filtered in from refugees and kaldorei in the surrounding area, many a nightborne had offered helping hands, opening their homes, doing relief efforts, however when their horde sin'dorei allies heard kaldorei were been given sanctuary and aid, an edict was issued from the Warchief forbidding such and over ruling the authority and autonomy of the city's ruling council many of which were older nightborne originally born kaldorei and many of which had led the rebellion alongside Thalyssra, this made matters worse.

Many remembered their days as kaldorei in a flourishing civilisation and world they stewarded, a time when things were better, their people full of kindness and nobility, times when the Queen had waged war on butchers for such acts (this was before the fall to addiction), many also remembered the very recent help their kaldorei kin had given them even after the disgraceful Moonguard stronghold attack by Elisande, help in finding a cure for their withering state and awful dependence on the nightwell, gaining valuable artifacts without which victory over the legion would have failed, not to mention the battle strategies from great generals like Lord Raven Crest that had proven effective and life saving in their efforts even the harsh words of the formerly much venerated High Priestess, which had then come as a shock and sparked their hasty course of action, did not seem so bad in this light, as many began to see that despite those words, she had also put herself on the line for her former people, her sentinels and priestesses had died to help them, and perhaps she was owed a little more benefit of the doubt (but such is the relationship between family member huh, we get over-sensitive with each other) .

That was it! They were resolved, they would help their kin no matter what this Warchief said, and they hoped that the nobility of their kind that came through in the fight against the Legion would once more shine and certainly inspire their new quite splendidly looking blood elven allies to do the same as they had done against the Legion. It did not. When it became clear that their new elven allies would not assist, in fact discouraged it, with many fighting against it and when the kaldorei shared how delighted sin'dorei attackers were at cutting down their elven kin, only one course of action would be clear. They and their city would help their kin.

Sadly they did not realise that the Warchief had won enough hearts firmly over to her philosophy, things eventually came to a head, with one group siding with the kaldorei and the other with the sin'dorei, many of those who had been working with the kaldorei found themselves changing back too, much to their delight, however a few amongst them who secretly despised their former selves were dismayed. the druids had been working with the mages as a repayment for their kindness to ensure the healing work of the fruit would accelerate, no one predicted the extraordinary effect it would have. It was soon observed that this happened quickest on those born kaldorei, those born nightborne showed no sign of change though their health was even further improved. It was also during this period that they heard the first hand accounts of life after the sundering, and remembered how much they both had in common, of a time before sorrows. Many a nightborne heard of the struggle with addiction, the painful decision to ban the use of arcane in a world where using it meant bringing back the legion. Many nightborne were born kaldorei and so instantly understood what surrendering the arcane was for a night elf at that time. Disdain at weakness turned to admiration for a strength of resolve to do something like that to protect the world, especially knowing the dedication to Long Vigil would mean no rebuilding of civilization, would mean no use of arcane magic - a life the nightborne could not imagine.

And so they won the hearts of many of their kin. The time in the forests were no longer viewed as some sort of regression into savagery, but a dignified people that had kept theri integrity and suffered living in the simplest of conditions while dedicating their life to an endless state of alert - and though many a kaldorei did share that a life in nature wasn't so bad as it sounded, it still amazed many of their kin. They were delighted to have see such nobility andfierce resolve very much alive in their kin, and the outlook of the sin'dorei was flipped on its head. Many of these embraced returning to their kaldorei form, a form that signified nobility and courage with a legacy of both the arcane and nature. Defenders and protectors of the world.

When things came to a head, many of the islands kaldorei, including the high priestess herself, who had been working closely with them, combined efforts to oppose those from the horde side seeking to drive them out this time they won, and it was the loyal nightborne that had to flee the city, Suramar became kaldorei once more, the rest of the nightborne, retrerated to Silvermoon, where contingencies to retake Suramar and find alternative homes in Kalimdor took place.

Conclusion: This is just an example of how it could go. end result is a continuation of the story of the elves, that paints a more nuanced light and a better end result of how competing view points and philosophies come to head, one group get inspired by their former selves to great effect after a horrible tragedy, the other takes a position of strength from their new sin'dorei allies, viewing themselves as survivors of an event that almost ends them, but doesn't break them instead making them stronger, much like the sin'dorei resolved to be powerful and great so that no one would ever destroy, them so to those who came to side with them, would never be humiliated by a legion and would never look or be weak to the unworthy. And so you have a group of people that like the quests that had both factions involved in, the people are split with some going to the kaldorei, and some to the sin'dorei, those who go to the kaldorei cease to be nightborne and return to being night elves, shal'dorei night elves, but night elves, and they are proud for it, those who remain nightborne, are proud of their current disposition and allies. Win win win win win win for everybody, you get a beautiful story, good result at the end, both factions and groups of players get something out of this.. I'm gonna play now. Talk more tomorrow

Then take the story further, nightborne whether out of banishment or fear of becoming kaldorei or out of convenience (varies per individual) maneouvre themselves to be linked with the sunwell, and this gains them an exiciting new feature (probably a racial change might occur, but possibly not, some physical changes, like an extra 3 skin tones, as some nightborne have a skin colour change, while others do not - i'm thinking similar range to the lightforged)

Void elves mirror nightborne in treatment on the alliance and horde respectively and are instead a taste of the main race rather than stealing vital attractive parts.

Nazjatar we will likely visit in 8.2, i'll be frank, while i doubt we will ever have that city, it is the better choice to be allied to the blood elves because the blood elves are Zin'Azshari elves, and the naga Vashj' teamed up with them too, Suramar is to the core night elven alliance, Tyrande, Malfurion, Illidan, Jarod, Maiev, Shandris all come from them, most of the night elves that marched to eventual victory over Azshara and survived come from both the city and the region, the nightborne are their colleagues who stayed in the city, it is a city tied through and through with the alliance night elves, it's a key part of the that particular faction of night elves' lore. They are closer to the night elves than the shen'dralar or the high elves.
Well, since the new ptr test realm: Some details:
https://www.wowhead.com/news=287529/patch-8-1-ptr-broadcast-text-tyrande-night-warrior-and-nathanos-spoilers

Only Tyrande is the night warrior, it would seem that only their heroes do anything. I don't mind Tyrande becoming powerful, but I sure want to see empowered night elven <insert specialization> Looks like night warrior is a one off.

We shall see if she is at least badass. And actually use moon and star spells this time instead of a fists.

Now the question is where would it lead to? Tyrande killing some hordies no doubt, but an ultimately meaninglfess darkshore campaign, i'd like to see the night elve sactually win something or gain something pretty damn amazing instead of lose all their amazing qualities and stuff. Look good a it too, rather than look like they can barely survive or stand up to any horde race.
30/09/2018 00:26Posted by Elandril
Well, since the new ptr test realm: Some details:
https://www.wowhead.com/news=287529/patch-8-1-ptr-broadcast-text-tyrande-night-warrior-and-nathanos-spoilers

Only Tyrande is the night warrior,

Oh thank goodness.

Still, that dialogue is SO full of "omg my people are so dead the forsaken are so much stronger than us" it just makes me want to vomit.

It's pretty damn sad that the NIGHT ELVES are, ONCE AGAIN, not actually doing anything.

From what it sounds like EVERYTHING depends on Tyrande.

At the end it will be a Tyrande 'victory', NOT a night elf victory. Night elves are dead and being raised.

God what a trash race.
26/09/2018 13:41Posted by Minairia
The Highborne receive tid-bits and they might get something more for Queen Azshara, but I can't see them getting anything meaningful once Azshara is dealt with.
She is relative to their story and their core. Once she's done, what else is there? Unless Blizzard creates another timey-wimey expansion where we get back to Kalimdor under the Kaldorei Empire, but I highly doubt that will happen, since WoD was a failure.
Oh god no, it will either be an expansion where we kill endless trolls only or endless amounts of demons (and some highborne)... World of Warcraft: Legion V 2.0 or World of Warcraft: Zul'mon
30/09/2018 00:58Posted by Naeya
From what it sounds like EVERYTHING depends on Tyrande.


And this is why people hate Tyrande and Malfurion, because blizzard can't seem to write the race acttually doing amazing stuff, only Malfurion, and now Tyrande.

On the plus side, we are actually seeing Tyrande DO something, yes, we've wanted that for a long long time, but what we have wanted more is the night elves themselves to do things. The whole race was amazing, in WC3 and WotA, not just key people like Azshara, Ravencrest, Malfurion, Ilildan and Tyrande - Moonguard of WotA, Highborne, Moon Priestesses of WC3, Sentinels, Demon Hunters - they were all badass, not just their leaders

Let me be plain, I don't mind lots of night elves dying if it would mean the few who remain become amazing and empowered (use the Well of Eternity or a new well, the last remaining night elf world tre, Elune - the fel - for their respective classes., use everything in their lore but let them kick !@#.

i don't ind if night elves lose kalimdor, as long as they gain some amazing night elf lands, for me the only option is the broken isles (because that is what is designed) i would hate night elves with a 15 zone span (10 in Kalimdor, 4 in the borken isles and 1 in northrend) to actually have to go crash in 1 worgen zone or 1 human zone, if the horde must have kalimdro there are 5 other night elf themed zones outside that continent. I don't mind losing Darnassus if they gain Suramar, don't mind losing Teldrassil and AShenvale if Shaladrassil and Val'sharah is gained, don't mind losing Darkshore if Azsuna is gained.. and while the broken hore doesn't make up for the ther 6 zones, it is better than nothing.

I don't mind Malfurion and Tyrande being amazing as long as othe rnight elves are written to be so.

To be honest, i would really like to see,Farondis, Lothrius, Vandal, Altruis and Thalyssra fight on the night elves' side. And i really reallly want to see Moon Priestesses in battle like in WC3, Tyrande using Moon and Star spells like she did in the AU End Times insteance and in WC3

I would love thier magi cand onder back.. this means Well of Eternity or New Star Well (call it an Elune blessed Powerful arcane well to replace the neutral well of eternity and from which their mages can do cool arcnae stuff like rebuild their cities and their druids and create more Moonwells to continuie enhcaning nature.

I would so loike it if we got a large bunch of nightborne becoming kaldorie.

Yes, wishful thinking i know, but night elves are due a string of awesome stuff comign their way, it's been 14 years of $%^- since WoW
30/09/2018 21:39Posted by Elandril
and Thalyssra


She's Horde with no regrets.

She prefers Blood Elves > Night Elves. Horde > Alliance.
30/09/2018 21:49Posted by Minairia
She's Horde with no regrets.

She prefers Blood Elves > Night Elves. Horde > Alliance


I'd still prefer it if she was.

It is not that i don't mind Thalyssra on the horde, i don't mind the horde nightborne having a good and prominent leader, a great one, I just don't think by the way they were written that Thalyssra and the majority of the remianing nightborne from the nightfallen rebellion belong or fit on the horde.

THalyssra strikes me like Tyrande's little sister or a relation, she displays the same kaldorei nobility exhibited in teh war of the ancients, she has the same values, she is the mage version of the Tyrande's female, people who care more about defending than conquering, worked well with night elves in 7.0, cared for saving both her people and those of her kin they had been seaprated for 10 k years.

The rebel nightfallen seem modelled after all the values we associate with the alliance. They also were the ones that had the humbling Farodin talks about, by being starved a lot, some to the point of becoming nightfallen, imprisoned by demons, while loyalists and many elite had an uneding flow of arcwine.

IT was an alliance story, and a night elf one, that they went horde in the end stillfeels wrong and it feels like it broke her character. Now the former loyalsts and those that survive until Elisande turns to help us, now they are the conquering type, arrogant too, pragmatism over mercy, would look down at oustiders. Thalyssra behaves so much like Malfurion who sought the help of outsiders during the burning legion.

Thslyssra, Farondis and Lothrius are perfect examples that show you how well arcane kaldorei can fit in with the character and attitude of Tyarandes group of kaldorei - they aren't the arrogant, reckless grade. The same is also seen in Estualn the shen'dralar.

Although it probably won't ever happen, i am still convinced that it would be better if blizzard take a bunch of nightborne over to the alliance, and they choose most of the group from the nightfallen rebellion who were working with night elves thorughout 7.0 anyway and behave like them.

I also feel if they do that, blizzard should raise a prominent nightborne character to lead teh horde, I was convinced in an mmo-champion post that this should be Elisande. Because elisande turns to our side after her defeat, she is very powerful, and if you read her story, she chose survival, didn't love the legion, and when she was convinced we could win she switched sides.She reminds me of the Darth'remar Sunstrider group and the blood elves in TBC who turn from kael'thas' legion affirming path. And it is easy to see that many of the elite who were on the fence, on seeing Elisande turn to aid us, also jumped in, eager to be on the winning side and secure prominent positions in teh post legion order.

This makes sense. It allows the night elves to partake in the nightborne destiny they helped create in 7.0 as well as the alliance, and those nightborne becoming Kaldorei ensures that the horde alone retians the nightborne race. Elisande is a more powerful leader. I can see Tyrande getting along with Thalyssra, but not Elisande after the legion, as long as blizzard doesn't write Thalyssra as doing anything grevious against the alliance in BFA, it could work especially if it is written well.

Here is how my favourite hunter wrote a scenario of this. It starts with Thalyssra's faith in the horde completely shaken after she hears the new of the war of thorns, it is the antithesis of what she stood for. But it is a heavy decision, not made lightly, how would she even approach the kaldorei? Is she locked down this path with no way out? Her people won't survive if she left the horde now, and would the kaldorei accept her, in her mind Thalyssra thinks perhaps she can wait it out, however Ly'leth Lunastre, her strong companion, is the one that approaches her, she cannot abide her people allied with murderours who do such things in the name of survival. Ly'leth has been talking and interacting with kaldorei on the island anyway, the first hand reports are sikening, especially when a kaldorei boat fleeing Teldrassil ends up near Suramr,

Things progress from there in a way like what was quoted above, which i will just copy paste for convenience.

18/09/2018 18:39Posted by Variyel
I don't think you appreciate how neat the solution is.

It is not nightborne on both sides because the ones who join the alliance become night elves. This allows the alliance to have had a role in the city and people they just saved and the night elves to have their kin and heritage play a role as one of them. Only the horde effectively get nightborne as only the alliance get void elves.

Or let me rephrase: Only the horde effectively get night elves in the form of nightborne as only the alliance get blood elves in the form of void elves

Alliance get a remnant of blood elves and horde get a remnant of night elves
Both the alliance and horde who both helped the night elves of Suramar get a part in their future. The horde get this with a small group of the nightborne as they are thenalliance get this with a larger group of nightborne that get restored to kaldorei.
The night elves gain their city from the lore back and have 1 elven city, the horde keep Silvermoon also having one elven city.
The forsaken get Icecrown Citadel, and some surrounding areas as well as Theramore.
Void elves get to bunk with another alliance race, nightborne get to bunk with a horde race.

When void elf fortunes improve, nightborne fortunes will improve.

An Example of How It Could Go Down
Rough Overview
The nighborne who sided with the horde got kicked out when things came to a head (if blizzard doesnt want some sort of co-existence) The alliance defecting nightborne elves in Suramar are all night elves now, the arcand'or fruit reversed the effect of the nightwell changes, a combination of druids and mages in an attempt to accelerate the balancing effect and eradicate any addiction ended up accelerating the effect in many shal'dorei who were born kaldorei and eaten the fruit first, as it was most (not all) of those who had been in the nightfallen rebellion that joined the kaldorei in disgust over the War of Thorns, and they are the ones that had been with the fruit the longest, it was they who changed.

However many of the city elite who had never faced starvation and only joined the revolt when it was clear the rebels would win, these and a few power orientated former rebels favoured the Horde, liking their different appearance, some of these who had started changing were able to counter and stop the acceleration, however, many of the younger shal'dorei born naturally nightborne had no such visible effect from the Arcan'dor, besides the majority of them preferred the blood elven vision, having never experienced the grandeur of the kaldorei empire at it's height, and only seeing the kaldorei in their war torn state, adopted the contemptable view of the sin'dorei for their siring race and rejected any interaction with them, instead adopting the view that they were a stain on the elven legacy and an ugly reminder of their fallibility. As such when the news of the genocide of elf kind in Kalimdor came, news that shocked and appalled many of the older original generation of nightborne born kaldorei, most of the younger nightborne applauded and felt inspired by the strength of their new allies much to the horror of their new leaders who had hoped the victory over Elisande and the legion had inspired all their kin to their nobler ancestral disposition. Whiles some of the powerful elite vying for leadership and hoping for horde help to do so, also took the side of the horde, much to the disgust of the others. And thus an irreversible divide occurred.

Horde side Story: Sylvanas sensing Thalyssra and her inner circles wavering resolve for the vision of the horde after the War of Thorns, set in motion a plan to inspire loyalty to the horde amongst a wavering nightborne populace. Killing Thalyssra would make her a martyr and the death of any of her council members might drive her further into the clutches of the kaldorei and cost her the entire race, a powerful new ally. Perceiving she could not sway her because of her insufferable values, Sylvanas and some concerned blood elves who reported on sentiments hatched a plan to discredit Thalyssra, and portray her and the ruling former rebels who were the cities new leaders, as weak and unfit for leading their people. They would say Thalyssra and her group were good for the legion conflict, but not to lead the people forward to the greatness that was their birthright, Thalyssra was weak, and much like the weak Kaldorei, she unwisely drained the nightwell that was a powerful tool that no longer crippled their race and made the shal'dorei dependent on non-elves and savages, needing the support of uncivilized allies. Elisande after all, was the one who truly saved the city, paying for her life to use the nightwell to destroy Gul'dan while Thalyssra hid behind outsiders (like Malfurion did) , not trusting in the strength of the shal'dorei.

Sylvanas was pleased to find a strong and vocal support amongst some of the cities elite, vying for position and power, but the most fervent came from some of the young. Unbeknown to her, however it also caused the opposite effect on many of the lower class, most of the original generation and most of the the nightfallen rebellion supporting elite.

Now young nightborne go forth to show their allies the strength and resolution of their race and are eager to lend their extraordinary intellect and skill to bringing conquest and victory for the horde.

Alliance side: The actions of the horde were indeed causing Thalyssra to waver and her heart was not in any of her warchiefs new schemes and orders, however the catalyst for change came from her closest friend Ly'leth Lunastre who was appalled at the behaviour of their new allies . They had joined a people they felt shared the same value for life but with a bold out take, not murderers of innocents and elves who had done no wrong but valued peace. When news of some of the horrors came, filtered in from refugees and kaldorei in the surrounding area, many a nightborne had offered helping hands, opening their homes, doing relief efforts, however when their horde sin'dorei allies heard kaldorei were been given sanctuary and aid, an edict was issued from the Warchief forbidding such and over ruling the authority and autonomy of the city's ruling council many of which were older nightborne originally born kaldorei and many of which had led the rebellion alongside Thalyssra, this made matters worse.

Many remembered their days as kaldorei in a flourishing civilisation and world they stewarded, a time when things were better, their people full of kindness and nobility, times when the Queen had waged war on butchers for such acts (this was before the fall to addiction), many also remembered the very recent help their kaldorei kin had given them even after the disgraceful Moonguard stronghold attack by Elisande, help in finding a cure for their withering state and awful dependence on the nightwell, gaining valuable artifacts without which victory over the legion would have failed, not to mention the battle strategies from great generals like Lord Raven Crest that had proven effective and life saving in their efforts even the harsh words of the formerly much venerated High Priestess, which had then come as a shock and sparked their hasty course of action, did not seem so bad in this light, as many began to see that despite those words, she had also put herself on the line for her former people, her sentinels and priestesses had died to help them, and perhaps she was owed a little more benefit of the doubt (but such is the relationship between family member huh, we get over-sensitive with each other) .

That was it! They were resolved, they would help their kin no matter what this Warchief said, and they hoped that the nobility of their kind that came through in the fight against the Legion would once more shine and certainly inspire their new quite splendidly looking blood elven allies to do the same as they had done against the Legion. It did not. When it became clear that their new elven allies would not assist, in fact discouraged it, with many fighting against it and when the kaldorei shared how delighted sin'dorei attackers were at cutting down their elven kin, only one course of action would be clear. They and their city would help their kin.

Sadly they did not realise that the Warchief had won enough hearts firmly over to her philosophy, things eventually came to a head, with one group siding with the kaldorei and the other with the sin'dorei, many of those who had been working with the kaldorei found themselves changing back too, much to their delight, however a few amongst them who secretly despised their former selves were dismayed. the druids had been working with the mages as a repayment for their kindness to ensure the healing work of the fruit would accelerate, no one predicted the extraordinary effect it would have. It was soon observed that this happened quickest on those born kaldorei, those born nightborne showed no sign of change though their health was even further improved. It was also during this period that they heard the first hand accounts of life after the sundering, and remembered how much they both had in common, of a time before sorrows. Many a nightborne heard of the struggle with addiction, the painful decision to ban the use of arcane in a world where using it meant bringing back the legion. Many nightborne were born kaldorei and so instantly understood what surrendering the arcane was for a night elf at that time. Disdain at weakness turned to admiration for a strength of resolve to do something like that to protect the world, especially knowing the dedication to Long Vigil would mean no rebuilding of civilization, would mean no use of arcane magic - a life the nightborne could not imagine.

And so they won the hearts of many of their kin. The time in the forests were no longer viewed as some sort of regression into savagery, but a dignified people that had kept theri integrity and suffered living in the simplest of conditions while dedicating their life to an endless state of alert - and though many a kaldorei did share that a life in nature wasn't so bad as it sounded, it still amazed many of their kin. They were delighted to have see such nobility andfierce resolve very much alive in their kin, and the outlook of the sin'dorei was flipped on its head. Many of these embraced returning to their kaldorei form, a form that signified nobility and courage with a legacy of both the arcane and nature. Defenders and protectors of the world.

When things came to a head, many of the islands kaldorei, including the high priestess herself, who had been working closely with them, combined efforts to oppose those from the horde side seeking to drive them out this time they won, and it was the loyal nightborne that had to flee the city, Suramar became kaldorei once more, the rest of the nightborne, retrerated to Silvermoon, where contingencies to retake Suramar and find alternative homes in Kalimdor took place.

Conclusion: This is just an example of how it could go. end result is a continuation of the story of the elves, that paints a more nuanced light and a better end result of how competing view points and philosophies come to head, one group get inspired by their former selves to great effect after a horrible tragedy, the other takes a position of strength from their new sin'dorei allies, viewing themselves as survivors of an event that almost ends them, but doesn't break them instead making them stronger, much like the sin'dorei resolved to be powerful and great so that no one would ever destroy, them so to those who came to side with them, would never be humiliated by a legion and would never look or be weak to the unworthy. And so you have a group of people that like the quests that had both factions involved in, the people are split with some going to the kaldorei, and some to the sin'dorei, those who go to the kaldorei cease to be nightborne and return to being night elves, shal'dorei night elves, but night elves, and they are proud for it, those who remain nightborne, are proud of their current disposition and allies. Win win win win win win for everybody, you get a beautiful story, good result at the end, both factions and groups of players get something out of this.. I'm gonna play now. Talk more tomorrow

Then take the story further, nightborne whether out of banishment or fear of becoming kaldorei or out of convenience (varies per individual) maneouvre themselves to be linked with the sunwell, and this gains them an exiciting new feature (probably a racial change might occur, but possibly not, some physical changes, like an extra 3 skin tones, as some nightborne have a skin colour change, while others do not - i'm thinking similar range to the lightforged)

Void elves mirror nightborne in treatment on the alliance and horde respectively and are instead a taste of the main race rather than stealing vital attractive parts.
But before you get yourself in a fit, it is just how i feel thinks should go down, i'm not demanding they go down this way.

I just want quality returning that won't ruin the great story told in legion, and the way they bunched all the nightborne and suramar into the horde really does that, and it isn't even necessary.

The motivation is to get something good out of something celarly originally intended for the Night elves and in a way that is actually interesting and engaging, that allows both horde and alliance to benefit somewhat from the nightborne event hough horde get the race.

I have no power to make any of this happen, i can only explain why i would like it to happen, how it could happen in an engaging story, and actually leave both factions gaining something from it.
How do I feel about the current Night Elven lore?
Disgusted.

My friends have already quit wow because of all the shafted "development" for Kaldorei that has been happening for expansions. I might follow the same steps if within a year nothing happens.

Being a nightelf now feels like im some refugee, a pathetic tall stickman thats supposedly long lived, magical with a powerful ancestry that cant even 1v1 against a corpse.
30/09/2018 00:58Posted by Naeya

God what a trash race.


Nightelves are a great race.
Blizz writing is trash...
01/10/2018 11:15Posted by Wenail
Nightelves are a great race.
Blizz writing is trash...

Actually blizzard has shown they are quite capable of writing very well. It is more like blizzard is writing them trash or at the very least not with the same love . It is the same blizzard that wrote such a great race in the first place, and other blizzard people that are leaving them down so.

Legion started so well for night elves in 7.0 and the nighthold, but as soon as they changed 7.1, and 7.2, and 7.3 - night elves lost out. Then they gave the arcane night elf section to the horde for 8.0, so basically it was intended to be great and it just went downhill again. After 14 years of waiting for decent night elf writing.

Suramar and nightborne caster group are the perfect fit for night elves as a sub race. Even if they decided horde should have nightborne, they could still have changed stuff round so that Suramar and most of the nightborne come over to the night elves as another type of kaldorei (say the fruit heals them to kaldorei, and they have a distinctive skin tone and tattoos on night elf models to signify they are the nightborne kaldorei while the horde get the actual nightborne.

Anyone who sees night elves with that special arcane tatoos and arcane armor distinctly know they are the elite arcane night elf group, while the horde still get the nightborne model. It could work so well, but their effort just died.

The Changes From 7.1
7.1 initially had Vereesa doing the alliance quests, and Tyrande had a different role, there was a dialogue with Elisande that spoke about "their mutual friend in trouble, referring to Malfurion, which indicated that Elisande and Tyrande and Malfurion knew each other, i distinctly remember when i saw that speculating that maybe Elisande was Malfurion's first lover or was chasing him, and she might have been the reason why he stepped up his efforts to warn night elves about the excessive and decadent behaviour with magical misuse. But that changed, and blood elves were all of a sudden not just there as the horde representative, but had added significance on the scene that wasn't in the first 7.1 version at all, and felt like a wind of change coming from the very night elven 7.0 direction, furthermore Tyrande was now a lot more stern with Thalyssra, which was always possible, but where you would have expected her to warm up if that was the plan, she never did, making me think something was fishy, but i didn't want to believe it.

The Original Intention for 7.2 Broken Shore
7.2 was supposed to be about Tyrande and the Preisthood of Elune starring in the Broken shore, their story in this very night elf lore steeped area with the biggest original temple to Elune. Oh how it was changed. It was changed to firstly have a lot more Legion stuff in it than night elf stuff, then the Tyrande & Priesthood role was re-written to be done by Class Order Halls instead. This was fine, but why couldn't they also have told that story too, 7.2 was one of the most lacklustre end game questing zones, and would have been great with the addition. Secondly, night elves could have starred and played a leading role in all the order halls but shaman, with nightborne taking a leading role in the warlock class on the broken shore. There are night elf heroes for rogues, priests, mages, warriors, hunters, death knights, paladins, demon hunters and druids .. we could have had Moon priests helping all those order halls, all removed.

How 7.3 Was Also Changed From the Night elves
7.3 was also supposed to be about Thal'dranath, an additional night elf zone, sort of like how 2.4 went back to the blood elves and actually because of it the blood elves got an amazing send off. This was also cancelled in favour of Argus and the burning throne, which everyone thought would be an expansion. Now again, this was not a bad idea, Argus was good and well done, could have been more if an expansion, but it was great idea for a patch. The downside was that more night elf lore was lost.

Short lived Night Elf Focus and Lore in their first Expansion Focus Ever
You actually ended up with only 7.0 and the Nighthold being the original story - which is why it so positively night elven, 7.1 started stealing focus and stuff from the night elves. But lets look at 7.0

Demon hunters were very well done, they came across badass, aggressive, no-nonsense and you really get the feel they are elite warrior casters at the pinnacle of magic and melee. This is the level you kinda fel all night elvs should be a step from.

Wardens: Finally, like demon hunters, or rather even a little bit more so than demon hunters for the first time in wow since WC3, again great showing, Wardens were tough, aggressive, female (even though there seems to be an aversion on adding males to the sentinel/Warden lot, but no such aversion adding females to the druid/DH which were a male thing in WC3 - but i don't mind so much at least some of the old tradition is reserved which i felt they could have done better via the npcs, if males could be priests, and females could be druids/DHs, at least the npcs should have been 99% in their gender roles even if that wasn't emphasized and there were the very occassional exceptions - they do this well with sentinel, a male senitnel is real, only one male Warden too, however tons of female druids especially in 3.2 ToC which i thought was bad, and a lot of female night elven DHs, I think just kor'vas would have done, the rest of the female ones should have been Blood elven ones, TBC got it right - they were all male amongst the npcs - this way the culture distinction is much more apparent amongst the npcs even though the players don't have such restrictions - preserving the uniquenes of the lore.) But it was good to see Wardens, and they were well done, notice again how nearly all their appearance is in 7.0 and the WQs related to them. After 7.0, it goes back to a 1 man show, Maeive is all you see, even though Jarod has become the Warden leader, Sira Moonblade is there. Don't get me wrong, it was nice to have Maiev showing up with Illidan, no problems with that, but i'm just highlighting how once agin, night elves have faded into the background after 7.0

Significance of the Night Elven Arcane Civilization and Suramar, the last standing Night elf City
Finally the night elven arcane civilization in Suramar and the nightborne, again was very well done. Suramar fits the billing of the wonder of night elven cities in pristine condition, we had seen amazing ruins teasing us for so long, highborne in cataclysm were just a tease, they were still in ruins and really almost nothing seen. While we hadn't seen the wardens or demon hunters feature in any capcity since WC3 on the player side (TBC we were not involved with either - Maiev's cameo at the end, and ofc, Illidans demon hunters were a shadowmoon valley Karabor section only - with the one showing of Altruis). However the great arcane aspect of the night elves spoken about in the lore, and a huge section of them waiting to be shown, was finally introduced. Suramar was a masterpiece of both visual art AND storytelling. The story was very good, very night elven. You saw the nightborne quite well inked to their night elven roots (if you paid attention to the quests), that these were night elves in a night elven cityi was apparent with the vast majority of the statues being of night elven highborne and priests, with only a few nightborne statues, lost of moon symbols, shrines to Elune, and if you knew the lore the massive cathedral was part of the city too. The nightborne revered the night elve in 7.0, Ly'leth Lunastre speaks of their ancient nobility which she is referring to the kaldorei courage and nobility that resisted the legion in the WotA when she asks you to remind her people. Thaedris Feathermoon in Tel'anor speaks of his night elven wife and the sorrow tha tthe city now a ghost town in memomorial to those who died protecting the city in WotA. Valtrois goes on about thier noble, and elevated kaldorei lineage - these aren't blood elves hating night elves or kaldorei like Elisande is shown to do mockingly in 7.1 at all. These are people proud to be night elven, just like the night elves are written in WotA.

Anyone who read WotA would not associate suramar or the nightborne with blood elves at all, it is pure kaldorei pre-sundering civilization - even one of the mission hall quests states quite plainly they preserved the culture pristinely over the millennia, what culture? blood elven? It did not exist, it is talking about the highborne led culture of the night elves the shen'dralar follow - another side of the night elves those of us who read had only known of in the books and were delighted to see. Occuleth remembers longingly in the nightfallen training session about the prayers of Elune that use to light up the temple of Falanaar back in the day.

These weren't made for blood elves or the horde, the nightfallen you follow behave so much like the kaldorei in character in responsibility, their decision to accept living in balance when Farodin comes to their aid, the work with the helping the moonguard and joining their cause, the Suramar refugees that they help and also join thalyssra's cause. The talk of being defenders of the world not conquerors which is a very night elven thing, as opposed to the Azshara mindset and more horde mindset of Elisande's lot of conquering and expansion which is not the kaldorei heart, but fits the horde as this is exactly what the orcs do. Blood and honour, victory and conquest. Then pragmmatic Elisande, she is shown to join the legion to save her people, not because she desires power even though some nightborne do reminding you of Kael'thas and the blood elves in TBC (both the ones who went to the legion and the normal ones that didn't)

The Compelling Reason for Kaldorei Nightborne & Kaldorei Controlled Suramar
They are perfect as an allied group to the night elves given how distinct and prominent their in game presentation was, it was certainly something that adds a very facny but very night elven majesty to the group that had so far being only ruins and forest. And what makes them work as an allied group waws their size and different model that llowed people to correctly distinguish them from the non-arcane wielding night elves.

But they showed the entire playerbase, what those who knew the lore had known but most players had never really known and the highborne dispaly in cataclysm had failed to show, that the night elf race were the original casters and the most advanced at it. This was in the lore, but most people who never read such things, and only went by what they saw in game would ahve been totally surprised but pleased. instead what happened is we had blood elf fans coveting night elven stuff.. why? Because it was fancy, they wanted it so badly, and blizzard i am convinced has made grave mistake by giving them all of it. They already have a great elven civilziaiton and casters, it is the nighte lves that need that identiy and that part added to them as a separate group. These show how very elven night elves are, that night elves are certainly not just your wood elf or forest elf type, but they are also very magical dark elves. NIght elves are a fusion of wood elf and dark elf and something entirely unique, making them very original, but in game for wow you would think they were children of the leaf or woods rather than children of the stars.

It is night elves that needed everythin in 7.0 to be associated with them. The female wardens and huntresses, the highborne, nightborne and moonguard, the demon hunters, the great city, the great world tree, to be attractive again. Which is why when none of it is stuck to them in 8.0 , and then teldrassil and kalimdor night elf control is shattered, with even more ruins, more defeat and more crappiness - people like me are "hey blizz, you really need to fix this" show off night elves again, restore them, bring back their fancy bits, take Suramar and most of the nightborne over to them, convert them to kaldorei if the horde must have the nightborne as race, so change the nightfallen rebel lot to kaldorei and let Suramar and the shal'dorei night elves (or kaldorei nightborne) be firmly night elven again - with night elven models but visually distinctive through arcane tattoos and their unique npc gear modified for the night elf skin. You can give the horde nightborne something special (my suggestion was that they link to the sunwell as they eneded up being the ones that still ahdn't takent he fruit yet as most of them were proud elites and youngesters who had not suffered starvation with the masses that joined the rebellion - and this adds a new power and some extra skins and armor in addition to the traditional nightborne one.

This way night elves have their Suramar arcane highborne casters that night elven but visually distinct in their unique regalia and arcane tattoos from priest night elves (With their face tattoos) and druid night elves.

The Horde Won't Ever Lose The Nightborne Race - They don't need to
It works, and it works well, it fixes the night elves, it deosn't deprive the horde of the nightborne race either. Sure they lose Suramar, but they never needed 2 elven cities both the great Thalassian city AND the great Night elven city too, that was just unfair.

#All this stuff we were waiting for, given then just dropped. this is what was infuriating, Do great stuff, write great stuff, then ruin it by butchering it further. Victims here? Night elves.. do they care? Well i know some do, but then if most of them love forsaken, humans, blood elves, orcs, trolls - well, it's no surprise the other alliance races even when they try to do something for them, end up being kicked to the curb, and they go back on it, or abandon it. 7.0 was good for night elves, the rest of it kinda was just a down hill run from there.

FIX IT PLEASE!
I noticed the redone Arathi Highlands was so much cooler than the original one...

Makes me look forward to a redone Darkshore. I wonder if they would upgrade the ruins of the 5 night elf cities there, Bashal'aran, Lornesta, Ameth'aran, Mathystra, Nazj'vel.

But I am quite willing to bet, that being night elf alliance, they won't. Night elves only get good stuff when they are the focus, - but i could hope i'm wrong. So much for night warrior being an imba thing.
In all honesty this is just the problem with the Alliance and why I find myself unable to truly commit and bond with either faction.

The Alliance is always ''humans and friends'' everyone else barely features. Yes, some more than others but still. Legion was supposed to be THE Draenei expansion and yet we learn that an elite force of Draenei is apparantly lead by a human and an elf.

That was bad already, but then we go into BfA and it just gets laughable. Darnassus is apparently so stick dry it burns up easily. Not even using the Azerite argument people came up with initially(which would've been a way better reason for the attack in the first place.)

Fast forward to now and apparently the Alliance cannot be arsed to help the Kaldorei retake their home(who cares right humans have their old city back.. sort of.) and apparantly the Draenei are too busy recovering from the ''campaign on Argus'' which is a load of bull, like, what does the Vindicaar run on, magic or fossil fuels? And I am very certain the Lightforged are practically war incarnate at this stage.

I get they want to make a little more conflict in the Alliances sphere of peace and I applaud that idea. But at-least make it valid and don't make the Alliance look even more silly. We, for a faction with a very elite army are apparently so incompetent we cannot help but lose, even the siege of Zuldazar from what was datamined seems to be a failure. Give us a win already, Blizzard.

But to get to my point. I really do feel bad for Nelf fans. It seems Blizzard is fully intend on forcing us to ''abandon'' you and then just kick you into an even deeper ditch to put their beloved Sylvanas on a bigger pedestal. I wish they could just write a balanced war where you win some and you lose some, its not really a war anymore at this stage. At this rate I'd rather they just forego the entire faction war.
I'm happy to see dark tyrande. Night elves need some forward looking lore for once. With all the changes wow has brought them, they were becoming horribly stale & irrelevant.

What I like most is the continued depiction of Elune as a chaotic deity. The last time a nelf begged her for help she sent the scythe of Elune, and look at all the harm and craziness that resulted.

I'm hopeful that Elune will enable the night elves' vengeance, but at some terrible price / side effect that can push the nelfs even further into new lore territory. Forget wells of eternity and world trees and the legion and the dragonflights. All that is over. Show us how they can play a role in light vs void vs undead.
You know, the thing that pisses me off is how and why they even bothered attacking through Darkshore? Why not just send ships straight to Teldrassil?

Also how do the catapults even reach it from the coast of Darkshore? And how does it catch fire so easily when theres several lakes in the tree. It's not like kindling which goes up instantly, it's literally just fire. Fire can't burn trees like that, even if it did it would take days for it to reach the state that it did when Saurfang says "they'll come for us now".

During a forest fire, the wood is at it's driest and the fire is larger than each tree by several hundred times. In this case you've got a healthy tree with lots of moisture in, it's got lakes on the top, and it's hundreds of thousands times bigger than anything that was used to set it on fire. It makes no sense at all for multiple reasons.

And that's ignoring what they're doing with Sylvanas. Maybe there'll be something at the end or later on in the expansion that explains these inconsistencies, but the problem is we spend all this time during the expansion hating the plot and the characters.

It's got to the point where if the Alliance was nailing up Horde children, no-one has any right to complain at all.

Then there's spoilers for the 8.1 Warfront and surrounding scenarios and questlines (which I won't spoil) but there's literally more stuff that makes no sense for the characters to do in so many different ways. Why have they gone in this direction? Are they just expecting us to distract us with something else and forget this stupid !@#$ even happened?
08/10/2018 00:49Posted by Snagrim
You know, the thing that pisses me off is how and why they even bothered attacking through Darkshore? Why not just send ships straight to Teldrassil?

Also how do the catapults even reach it from the coast of Darkshore? And how does it catch fire so easily when theres several lakes in the tree. It's not like kindling which goes up instantly, it's literally just fire. Fire can't burn trees like that, even if it did it would take days for it to reach the state that it did when Saurfang says "they'll come for us now".

During a forest fire, the wood is at it's driest and the fire is larger than each tree by several hundred times. In this case you've got a healthy tree with lots of moisture in, it's got lakes on the top, and it's hundreds of thousands times bigger than anything that was used to set it on fire. It makes no sense at all for multiple reasons.

And that's ignoring what they're doing with Sylvanas. Maybe there'll be something at the end or later on in the expansion that explains these inconsistencies, but the problem is we spend all this time during the expansion hating the plot and the characters.

It's got to the point where if the Alliance was nailing up Horde children, no-one has any right to complain at all.

Then there's spoilers for the 8.1 Warfront and surrounding scenarios and questlines (which I won't spoil) but there's literally more stuff that makes no sense for the characters to do in so many different ways. Why have they gone in this direction? Are they just expecting us to distract us with something else and forget this stupid !@#$ even happened?
Yes, the degree of inconsistency is troubling to see, and not a good sign, unless it only appears this way because only part of the story has been told.

Thalyssra and the nightborne rebels that lead Suramar joining the horde isn’t consistent at all. It’s not that some nightborne joined the blood elves, that’s not surprising since TBC blood elves are modelled and Azshara post addiction night elf highborne and arcane society, and the Suramar society we see are the night elves of that era, with its haughtiness and pragmatism, it is quite plausible those amongst the nightborne could find friends with the blood elves and pick them over the Kaldorei despite shen’dralar and high elves even void elves being on the alliance.

What is inconsistent is that Thalyssra’s rebels who went through a humbling similar to Tyrande/Malfurion’s Kaldorei group after the sundering and had a change in attitude and outlook. One of the biggest inconsistencies I found is that Thalyssra and her lot would join horde, and even if they did, say because blood elves aggressively pursued it, that they would stay after War of Thorns genocide on night elves. I keep half expecting Thalyssra and the majority of the nightborne to walk out on the horde leaving the city elite and loyalist bunch that never had to starve and therefore were never humbled either and view people like Thalyssra who drained the Well or Tyrande Kaldorei who banned the arcane for the long vigil phase as totally nuts. I can see that lot even being suspicious of the arcan’for and opting to link with the sunwell once their arcwine stores they were hoarding run out.

But white knight noble Thalyssra and the rebels we trained. Don’t match horde types at all. And that is not even mentioning what a blow to Night elf restoration losing both Suramar and a well presented group of arcane caster night elves is.

And when you point out other inconsistencies with other parts of the story, it’s hard to believe this is the same group that wrote the Legion story that was so well done. Unless these inconsistencies we are seeing are going to be sorted out in the story they had planned.
I really hope blizzard don't consider the warfront as hey, we've done the night elf thing for this expansion. Azshara is their Queen, I hope they are involved, and since the warfront doesn't really change the results, just make em look scary, let's hope it is a start and not the end, especially in this expansion

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum