Vol'Zith is insanely hard on Mythic...

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18/09/2018 11:59Posted by Grodor
G'huun is something they won't see till LFR comes out with it, and even then he'll be in a group that will wipe a lot.

Then they'll come to the forums and complain and say "LFR is too hard, nerf it!


Probably we will wipe. But at least we'll have that buff of determination.


With your skill, you'd need 20 of those just to MAYBE down him.
First time I did that boss my group was wiping for like 1,5 hours. Since then its been one shot every time, cuz now we know what to do. It's all mechanics. Set a pattern for interupts, watch out for tentacles, avoid killing the tiny adds if you can. Follow that pattern and you'll be okay.
I am sorry but if this boss on mythic 0 is "insanely hard" for you then I am afraid you will encounter many other problems in the future.

The truth is that this boss is not insanely hard, no matter how you put it. It might be insanely hard on mythic 10 with tyranical but I guess that was not your case. Me and many other people, no matter if casual or hardcore, namaged to kill this boss on the first week without even wiping, this itself proves that the boss dificulty was at the same level as skill curve of average WoW player willing to go mythic. You had several weeks since then and must have gotten a lot of ilvls so there is no justification for pretending something which is not right.
18/09/2018 12:02Posted by Shortbolts
With your skill, you'd need 20 of those just to MAYBE down him.


The only way it will be doable on LFR is if they remove the power matrices, the reorgination blast, the tentacles, putrid blood, and... the G'huun.
I have no doubt that Blizzard will do it professionally so G'huun will be bearable on LFR.

For example, Maiden of Vigilance was designed to wipe the raid based on a single DPS mistake on Normal. It was great on LFR and was beatable even if players forgot to jump in the pit. The Desolate Host also didn't include the real desolate host.

They will remove a lot of things from G'huun to make it a good experience for those of us, LFRaiders.
18/09/2018 11:12Posted by Grodor

And the problem with the so called easy content is unrewarding. Both gear-wise (you can only get blue items) AND lore-wise. Did you forget that now we have a storyline event which is gated behind a mythic?

Story should be accessible to all players. When it's gated behind Mythics, then they suddenly become casual-oriented content.

As I asked - why should Mythic dungeons be oriented towards you? YOU already have Mythic+ at progressively higher difficulties. The Mythic+ limit is quite high already. So high, than we can consider Mythic in-between M+ and Normal.

And yes, people like me don't bother doing M+. I didn't bother doing challenge modes in Pandaria.


Sure, I'd agree that story shouldn't be gated behind Mythics. That's fair enough, frankly; most players looking for challenging gameplay don't care that much about the storyline anyway, and if a quest requires clearing a dungeon then I have no objections to it counting any clearance of that dungeon on any difficulty. The aim behind those quests is to try and get people to socialize when forming a group rather than relying on the random dungeon finder, but tbh after the last 5 years or so I think we can all agree that that idea has been a failure, leading to more bad group experiences than anything else.

Some players have 10+ years experience in this game, and they need more challenging content for it to be entertaining. Others just want to play through the story and relax. Mythic is not for those players, and so the story shouldn't try and push them into it. They won't have fun playing content they find too hard, and they'll ruin the fun of those who want more challenging content in the process. This is probably a major cause of the ilvl inflation in the dungeon finder, too.

As to gear rewards... if you're not looking to do harder content, you don't need anything better than the blue 325 gear from Heroics. Gear is a means to unlock content, not the other way around. If you're not interested in doing tough encounters, then you really don't need to be walking around in 340 gear.

Mythic dungeons should be oriented toward us because they're for learning the encounter mechanics, without the timer pressure of M+. You can ignore mechanics for normal and heroic. That's why they're for players looking to just enjoy the story without much challenge. Mythic needs to teach us which abilities are going to be genuinely dangerous for M+, and to be a properly-paced challenge for people who have invested time in learning to get the most from their class. Nerfing them, by nature, also nerfs every level of M+, so it's going to impact even the highest skilled players.
Vol'zith isn't really that hard. Make sure everyone focuses on the same add and interrupt it so it can't heal itself. With your gear you shouldn't have any trouble clearing that dungeon in mythic.
So you're saying you died to Whisperer?
HAHA
well, seems OP was actually right, they wouldn't nerf it if they didn't have metrics showing it had lower completion rates/more wipes than other last mythic 0 bosses
17/09/2018 20:11Posted by Grodor
After 15 wipes, I disbanded my group...

Blizzard.

Most of the players aren't part of Method. Nor Limit. Not Exorsus. Nor Memento.
A lot of us have families. And children.

For some of us it's unacceptable to walk out of dungeon as a catatonic wreck.
5-man dungeons shouldn't take a hour and a half to complete... and even fail to complete.

Even as a 335+ group, Vol'Zith is waaaay too hard. Problems are numerous, and I don't even think that I should start with the one that tentacles are hard to be seen in phase if you have low-budget videocard.

Even if a group is perfectly coordinated - interrupt adds in phase, kill adds close to boss, watch not to be in dark, heal... it's too hard.

Ordinary Mythic shouldn't be THAT HARD.

Nerf that boss.


Is your attitude in life whining when something doesnt go your way?
Mythic dungeons arent the problem you are.
If I can do +10s in time while having a job and family so can you. You kist have to quit whining about everything that you dont complete and start thinking how you can overcome it.
Tanking on the edge to avoid black aoe on ground.
When in shadows :
Dps use interrupt on jellyfish.
Tank kite and heal dps.
Kill adds first on p2.
Burst.
18/09/2018 12:41Posted by Dargaroth
Sure, I'd agree that story shouldn't be gated behind Mythics. That's fair enough, frankly; most players looking for challenging gameplay don't care that much about the storyline anyway, and if a quest requires clearing a dungeon then I have no objections to it counting any clearance of that dungeon on any difficulty. The aim behind those quests is to try and get people to socialize when forming a group rather than relying on the random dungeon finder, but tbh after the last 5 years or so I think we can all agree that that idea has been a failure, leading to more bad group experiences than anything else.

Some players have 10+ years experience in this game, and they need more challenging content for it to be entertaining. Others just want to play through the story and relax. Mythic is not for those players, and so the story shouldn't try and push them into it. They won't have fun playing content they find too hard, and they'll ruin the fun of those who want more challenging content in the process. This is probably a major cause of the ilvl inflation in the dungeon finder, too.

As to gear rewards... if you're not looking to do harder content, you don't need anything better than the blue 325 gear from Heroics. Gear is a means to unlock content, not the other way around. If you're not interested in doing tough encounters, then you really don't need to be walking around in 340 gear.

Mythic dungeons should be oriented toward us because they're for learning the encounter mechanics, without the timer pressure of M+. You can ignore mechanics for normal and heroic. That's why they're for players looking to just enjoy the story without much challenge. Mythic needs to teach us which abilities are going to be genuinely dangerous for M+, and to be a properly-paced challenge for people who have invested time in learning to get the most from their class. Nerfing them, by nature, also nerfs every level of M+, so it's going to impact even the highest skilled players.


I personally tend to agree with you. Will I be happy doing Normal/Heroic only? Perhaps I will. I lived with Normal and Heroics during most expansions. I don't even think that I did mythic back in WOD, when it was first introduced.

But now, when the story is being gated behind Mythic, I have no choice. And so I tried - and it was bearable.

The real question is :

If you're not interested in doing tough encounters, then you really don't need to be walking around in 340 gear

Am I interested? Sometimes - yes, but we all have different perceptions of what a tough encounter means. Other bosses are well tuned according to my perception. Occasionally the trash is worse than the bosses themselves. I've had my great experience in Siege of Boralus dungeon, when the last boss was tough, but after learning the encounter we did it.

Here, however, we're dealing with Vol'Zith - a boss that's objectively more difficult than other bosses in Mythic. While other players said: "You're bad, get good", it doesn't appear this is the case. By nerfing the boss mechanics, it seems that Blizzard themselves agree that the boss is objectively harder than the other bosses to an unacceptable level.

Remember: to most people, a lot of wiping is never fun. We all have wipe tolerance. One, two, three to five wipes are OK. But more than 10 wipes, spending hours fruitlessly, especially when you try to follow tactics? That's unacceptable.

There's no fun in dying, and some of us experience wipe at 5% (for example) worse than others. It's emotionally draining. When it becomes emotionally draining, there's no fun in that. Insulting the player (like some morons did in previous posts) doesn't help. When the player stops having fun on a content he previously enjoyed, then it's a problem. And Blizzard needs to address it.

In this particular case, they did.
18/09/2018 12:32Posted by Chevallier
I am sorry but if this boss on mythic 0 is "insanely hard" for you then I am afraid you will encounter many other problems in the future.

The truth is that this boss is not insanely hard, no matter how you put it. It might be insanely hard on mythic 10 with tyranical but I guess that was not your case. Me and many other people, no matter if casual or hardcore, namaged to kill this boss on the first week without even wiping, this itself proves that the boss dificulty was at the same level as skill curve of average WoW player willing to go mythic. You had several weeks since then and must have gotten a lot of ilvls so there is no justification for pretending something which is not right.
Even on +10 tyrannical that boss is a target dummy
On higher key is hard? Yes.
On M +0 ? not really.
I cleared with a random group first week with all 320-235.
Mythic is not supposed to be easy like heroic or lfr,not every content is designed to be cleared by everyone.
I suggest you to get more gear and then try to clear it again.
Content that you can queue=Easy.
Content that you need to group up without queue=Hard.
This topics becomes more of a trainwreck with each passing hour.
18/09/2018 13:38Posted by Grodor

I personally tend to agree with you. Will I be happy doing Normal/Heroic only? Perhaps I will. I lived with Normal and Heroics during most expansions. I don't even think that I did mythic back in WOD, when it was first introduced.

But now, when the story is being gated behind Mythic, I have no choice. And so I tried - and it was bearable.

The real question is :

If you're not interested in doing tough encounters, then you really don't need to be walking around in 340 gear

Am I interested? Sometimes - yes, but we all have different perceptions of what a tough encounter means. Other bosses are well tuned according to my perception. Occasionally the trash is worse than the bosses themselves. I've had my great experience in Siege of Boralus dungeon, when the last boss was tough, but after learning the encounter we did it.

Here, however, we're dealing with Vol'Zith - a boss that's objectively more difficult than other bosses in Mythic. While other players said: "You're bad, get good", it doesn't appear this is the case. By nerfing the boss mechanics, it seems that Blizzard themselves agree that the boss is objectively harder than the other bosses to an unacceptable level.


Well, you're not interested in the tougher content. You've said as much - you're not going to raid beyond LFR, and in general you're finding Mythic 0 to be challenging and have no interest in trying even low M+ keys. Heroic seems tailor-made for you, tbh, and 325 gear is more than appropriate for making heroic dungeons quite easy.

Pre-nerf, Vol'Zith was not particularly tough for a group of decent players who have decent communication - not even necessarily voice comms, a 'casting interrupt!' macro would do. Siege is widely perceived as heavily undertuned and, tbh, rather dull because of it; bosses have very few mechanics (compared to King's Rest, for example, where some trash packs have more mechanics than all the bosses in Siege combined).

I've been in groups which have wiped on Vol'Zith a few times, but we've never failed to bring him down after 2-3 goes. If you're having issues, then it's almost certainly due to lack of interrupts, either due to odd group composition or players being unfamiliar with what interrupts do (given that Blizz haven't exactly emphasized their importance for, oh, about ten years now). As others have noted, once you have that set up, the fight becomes rather trivial.

These are precisely the kind of things which become very important in Mythic but which can be avoided in heroic. Proper use of non-dps abilities like interrupts, AOE slows and stuns is precisely what separates Mythic-level DPS play from heroic DPS play, just as good kiting technique and use of defensives are important tank skills in Mythic and entirely unneeded in Heroic.

The fact that your group couldn't put it together after 15 wipes suggests that at least some of the players were not ready for Mythic content, and so shouldn't really have been there. The solution to that is not to ask for nerfs, tho, it's to start teaching players the Mythic skillset earlier.
For some reason healer on this boss can heal only tank and it will be ok:
- healer gets debuff
- no dispel
- dps the tank-add
- defensive cd to survive jellyfish's cast (if there is any)
- still no dispel
- debuff on dps
- avoid tentacles
- you can burst one jellyfish with buffed dps, the other one needs just one interupt
- we did +10 tyrannical with 3 melees

As someone said - if you wiped due to mechanic -> check what was that -> get to know how to deal with this mechanic -> progress

If any nerf is needed it would be to make tentacles more visible, not damage since it doesn't change difficulty at all xd
Well I just did Freehold on Mythic, and it was a blast. Nobody died. Nobody wiped. So certainly it's not unreasonable to expect that some dungeons shouldn't be impossibly difficult compared to the others, right?
it's impossible to interrupt? Shut up, go back to your class, put interrupt on your bar and USE IT WHEN YOU NEED TO.

Here easy mode:

PUT MARKERS ON THE DPS.

RED MARKER FIRST DPS
BLUE MARKER SECOND DPS
ORANGE MARGER THIRD DPS

Now go and say something like this: INTERRUPT ROTATION: red first, blue 2nd, orange third.

Congrats you have finished a pathetic m0 that people were doing at 300 ilvl in the first week.
I believe I did the dungeon on Mythic 0 with a group overall ilvl 310-320 so it is definitely a you problem, not a difficulty problem, Heck people are doing it on time on Mythics +4-5 daily and they have 340-350 gear generally so you not being able to to do normal Mythic with a group level of 335 is your problem and you and your group should get better at mechanics. Interupts and timing are key. Get it right and the last boss is a breeze.

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