Might we see half the nightborne defect to Kaldorei?

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There is so much more they can do, than what they have already done, so much.
If this was the intention, they would not have become playable as they would be just classed as "Night Elves."

The Arcan'dor was always supposed to help the Nightborne with their magical addiction. Even the first one, that failed was supposed to help the Nightborne who would become Fal'dorei.

Intentions can change, it is part of the development cycle, something you won't know until they tell you. did you know originally the broken shore was all aobut Tyrande and the Moon priestesses, but they changed that to haing the class orders instead and a far morelegion looking broken shore.

This is why we want the engagement of the dev team, especially the people who come up with these ideas, it would be interesting to see what they intended. You might not see anything out of the ordinary, but you and I are different, I see certain things, and wonder about others, and maybe you don't think i'm right, maybe i'm not, but maybe i am.

THis is why i try to avoid definitive statements when it comes to the intentions of people, and rather phrase them as conditionals rather than imperatives.

16/09/2018 16:05Posted by Minairia
And screw the race and divide it. It would be terrible writing.
And do explain why, it would have been better than what we got. The race was already divided, the rebels won, but we still had others of the other mindset about, to me it looked like they would either stay neutral or unite under the night elves.

The horde was a possibility, but the less likely one, a divided race happens all the time, the pandaren, the humans, the trolls, different groups have diffrent loyalties, it actually tends to be more interesting.

Are you saying it is horrible writing because you don't like the idea or becasue you think it is horrible.

Drama, intrigue, development, it has stuff in it for both sides. If blizzard wanted the nightborne to be entirely horde from the start, then why bother to have the alliance armies play a role? We could have been like the highountain or Argus expedition and just be the adventurer that goes and helps the tuaren or the draenei, nothing to do with factions. Why bring both armies in?

All in all the suramar story was better for including the horde, and it would be better still for the alliance continuing to play some role in the city they helped free, the original home city of the alliance night elves and their long separated kin thought lost.

BUt if tha'ts horrible to you, then I guess it is horrible toyou, it isn't to me. This is why I sometimes think peoples faction loves and preferences get in the way, but I admit, i could be wrong, i don't really know your true intentions and motives, heck you may not even know yours, just have to take it at your word. THere are some stories i have thought were amazing and a lot of people have, but some have thought were horrible. Each to his own.

16/09/2018 16:05Posted by Minairia
During 7.1, we saw two of the Nightborne leaders and even the Moon Guard Night Elves, express far more interest and acknowledgement towards the Blood Elves.

After 7.1, if the Nightborne were due to become playable, it was destined that they would join the Horde, through their Blood Elven allies.


And don't ignore that before 7.1 and in the original version we had ZERO blood elf interaction and input. something changed during the programming of 7.1, but please don't forget we are not arguing that the horde isn't or doesn't have the nightborne, but rather mmoreover the fact that you don't like or want the alliance to have any role in this race any more.

I think that would be a mistake,i think it is inconcistent with the narrative of the nightborne, the set up of this group of night elves, the way the story was executed to both factions and the particular histoory and background lore that is specifically tied to that particular group of alliance night elves.. To then leave them out of it force the nightborne rebels into a horde that holds values that clearly don't line up with theirs, it really isn't consistent and to me, if it stays like this it is bad, if this position is only transient and a stepping stone to flesh out more movement of this race between the factions, then it would be interesting.

16/09/2018 16:23Posted by Destruct
When you did the campaign you clearly saw the divide many Nightborne revering the night elves, others stuck in their old ways and still seeing them as lowborne. We wouldn't have had void elves but a split Nightborne factions. 1 half honroing their brother and sisters in the night elves and and 1 half going to preserve as much magic as they could with the blood elves so they would have acces to the Sunwell. Heck even the maincast, Thalrysha and Occuleth were more leaning towards night elves while the others would surely choose blood elves. The situation for a second neutral 'race' was perfectly set up.


Totally agreed, don't mind Minairia, many people saw it and wrote about it onon the forums too, it made sense, and it fits a hell of a lot better, and i think blizzard should go down tat line still, failure to do so weakens the entire story of the nightborne, suramar and of the night elves, it screws them over even ore, makes the story look pointless and not make sense - it's like why make it interseting and leave clues only to unravel that entirely by taking them all over to the horde.

My line is that the group can still be split with the horde having the playable model, the war of thorns is perfect for a good reason why enough nightborne would side with kaldorei, and to make sure the model stays exclusive to the horde, the arcan'dor and magic are perfect tools to be used to make those nightborne siding with the night elves become kaldorrei,.

THe horde has the nighorne, but they don't need all of them, nor do they need the city. When you think about what the alliance got via the void elves, the allinace got a small group of blood elves that became void elves, they got no city, most of the thalassian elves remained blood elves, so it's not like it is some injustice to the horde, because that is exactly the situation the alliance got with the void elves.

THat is in addition to all the other reasons put forward, it makes me think that faiulre to see that is an example of bias, arguing against it as if it is something that would not fit the lore in a creative project also to me seems pointless and makes me wonder about the motives.. Anyway good catch.

Maybe "was", but not anymore.

The Nightborne are Horde and until some either join the Dalaran Sunreavers or the Kirin Tor/Tirisgarde, then they will remain on the Horde.
Ttthe nighbor horde until blizzard decide towrite that some of them changed sides, you know this is a creative project, horde or neutral aren't the only options, i've just outlined an alliance friendly option that makes sense in the current events.

Stating the nightborne will never have anyone switch tot he alliance doens't change any thing about what could happen, unless you are the creative developer and that is what you have decided.. untiil you change your mind.

When you develop a story their are many things you can do and places you can go, sometimes fans will think of some of these too, based on the clues you leave them, you may go that way you may not. . wanna bet no one would bat an eyeliid
if some of the nightborne go alliance. They aren't as loved or cherished as the blood elves, it's a ne and we know that nothing is settled yet with this new thing. In fact i'd wager many players will welcome it as it validates their experience of the 7.0 and 7.1 content, and would accept nightborne that sided with the kaldorei and became kaldorei too, this is not some sort of beyond possiblity, just because the nightborne are available on the horde. All that means is that only the horde will have access to their model, as to the further story of the rac, well anything can happen.

And if it does, well I think you and i are both pretty certain, whatever happens, the horde will still have access to nightborne, so no need to worry about that.

16/09/2018 16:27Posted by Minairia
The Moon Guard Elf, Lothrius Mooncaller, wished to rewrite Night Elf lore as he found it fascinating, but actually wanted to go and visit Silvermoon's vast libraries.

indeed he did, and i woudln't be surprised if many borken isles night elves wanted to get along with both factiion of elves, see Silvermoon, rewrite night elf lore and a bunch of things..that is just part of the flavour.

We coudl just as easily see broken isles kaldorei side with the horde, however remember, the values of the horde, they don't fit your typical nightfallen rebel or kaaldorei, so while it could happpen, it would be funny. IT would be like you are purposeefuully now trying to forrce a ggroup not designed for that faction into that faction, when it would fit much better to take all the isles night elves and most of the nightborne into the faction they were designed for and leave a solid group of loyal horde and blood elf believing nightborne on the horde.

It was perfectly set up, the rebels go alliance, the loyalists go horde. Now that phase has past, you can achieve the same result through other mmeans because the lore has provided it,the nightborne horrified at the hrodes actions in kaldimor against the kaldorei join them, those who believe in pragmatism over life, stay horde. That makes sense also, given how you wrote the nightborne, those qquests haven't changed, you still see the nightborne valuing kaldorei life and you see them pretty much as the vein of kaldorei culture they are, it is really not surprising that some of htem would leave the horde over the actions in Kalimdor.

It may not happen immediately, but it could be one of the prices the horde pays. But ofc, horde fans don't expect the horde to pay any price. What they think is a good story is the horde winnning everything, walking over everyone, and getting the best of everything. If blizzard agree with this, they will be in for the same problem they had in classic, a massive horde population and a really unpleasant diminished alliance one.

it's really their choice, write interesting stuff that has some really good positives for the alliance too, not just hte horde, or continue with the horde gravy train and see how balanced a gaming environment it will result in or how many people they just drive away from enjoying their franchise.
16/09/2018 18:51Posted by Kelibor
If this was the intention, they would not have become playable as they would be just classed as "Night Elves."

The Arcan'dor was always supposed to help the Nightborne with their magical addiction. Even the first one, that failed was supposed to help the Nightborne who would become Fal'dorei.

Intentions can change, it is part of the development cycle, something you won't know until they tell you. did you know originally the broken shore was all aobut Tyrande and the Moon priestesses, but they changed that to haing the class orders instead and a far morelegion looking broken shore.

This is why we want the engagement of the dev team, especially the people who come up with these ideas, it would be interesting to see what they intended. You might not see anything out of the ordinary, but you and I are different, I see certain things, and wonder about others, and maybe you don't think i'm right, maybe i'm not, but maybe i am.

THis is why i try to avoid definitive statements when it comes to the intentions of people, and rather phrase them as conditionals rather than imperatives.

16/09/2018 16:05Posted by Minairia
And screw the race and divide it. It would be terrible writing.
And do explain why, it would have been better than what we got. The race was already divided, the rebels won, but we still had others of the other mindset about, to me it looked like they would either stay neutral or unite under the night elves.

The horde was a possibility, but the less likely one, a divided race happens all the time, the pandaren, the humans, the trolls, different groups have diffrent loyalties, it actually tends to be more interesting.

Are you saying it is horrible writing because you don't like the idea or becasue you think it is horrible.

Drama, intrigue, development, it has stuff in it for both sides. If blizzard wanted the nightborne to be entirely horde from the start, then why bother to have the alliance armies play a role? We could have been like the highountain or Argus expedition and just be the adventurer that goes and helps the tuaren or the draenei, nothing to do with factions. Why bring both armies in?

All in all the suramar story was better for including the horde, and it would be better still for the alliance continuing to play some role in the city they helped free, the original home city of the alliance night elves and their long separated kin thought lost.

BUt if tha'ts horrible to you, then I guess it is horrible toyou, it isn't to me. This is why I sometimes think peoples faction loves and preferences get in the way, but I admit, i could be wrong, i don't really know your true intentions and motives, heck you may not even know yours, just have to take it at your word. THere are some stories i have thought were amazing and a lot of people have, but some have thought were horrible. Each to his own.

16/09/2018 16:05Posted by Minairia
During 7.1, we saw two of the Nightborne leaders and even the Moon Guard Night Elves, express far more interest and acknowledgement towards the Blood Elves.

After 7.1, if the Nightborne were due to become playable, it was destined that they would join the Horde, through their Blood Elven allies.


And don't ignore that before 7.1 and in the original version we had ZERO blood elf interaction and input. something changed during the programming of 7.1, but please don't forget we are not arguing that the horde isn't or doesn't have the nightborne, but rather mmoreover the fact that you don't like or want the alliance to have any role in this race any more.

I think that would be a mistake,i think it is inconcistent with the narrative of the nightborne, the set up of this group of night elves, the way the story was executed to both factions and the particular histoory and background lore that is specifically tied to that particular group of alliance night elves.. To then leave them out of it force the nightborne rebels into a horde that holds values that clearly don't line up with theirs, it really isn't consistent and to me, if it stays like this it is bad, if this position is only transient and a stepping stone to flesh out more movement of this race between the factions, then it would be interesting.

16/09/2018 16:23Posted by Destruct
When you did the campaign you clearly saw the divide many Nightborne revering the night elves, others stuck in their old ways and still seeing them as lowborne. We wouldn't have had void elves but a split Nightborne factions. 1 half honroing their brother and sisters in the night elves and and 1 half going to preserve as much magic as they could with the blood elves so they would have acces to the Sunwell. Heck even the maincast, Thalrysha and Occuleth were more leaning towards night elves while the others would surely choose blood elves. The situation for a second neutral 'race' was perfectly set up.


Totally agreed, don't mind Minairia, many people saw it and wrote about it onon the forums too, it made sense, and it fits a hell of a lot better, and i think blizzard should go down tat line still, failure to do so weakens the entire story of the nightborne, suramar and of the night elves, it screws them over even ore, makes the story look pointless and not make sense - it's like why make it interseting and leave clues only to unravel that entirely by taking them all over to the horde.

My line is that the group can still be split with the horde having the playable model, the war of thorns is perfect for a good reason why enough nightborne would side with kaldorei, and to make sure the model stays exclusive to the horde, the arcan'dor and magic are perfect tools to be used to make those nightborne siding with the night elves become kaldorrei,.

THe horde has the nighorne, but they don't need all of them, nor do they need the city. When you think about what the alliance got via the void elves, the allinace got a small group of blood elves that became void elves, they got no city, most of the thalassian elves remained blood elves, so it's not like it is some injustice to the horde, because that is exactly the situation the alliance got with the void elves.

THat is in addition to all the other reasons put forward, it makes me think that faiulre to see that is an example of bias, arguing against it as if it is something that would not fit the lore in a creative project also to me seems pointless and makes me wonder about the motives.. Anyway good catch.

Maybe "was", but not anymore.

The Nightborne are Horde and until some either join the Dalaran Sunreavers or the Kirin Tor/Tirisgarde, then they will remain on the Horde.
Ttthe nighbor horde until blizzard decide towrite that some of them changed sides, you know this is a creative project, horde or neutral aren't the only options, i've just outlined an alliance friendly option that makes sense in the current events.

Stating the nightborne will never have anyone switch tot he alliance doens't change any thing about what could happen, unless you are the creative developer and that is what you have decided.. untiil you change your mind.

When you develop a story their are many things you can do and places you can go, sometimes fans will think of some of these too, based on the clues you leave them, you may go that way you may not. . wanna bet no one would bat an eyeliid
if some of the nightborne go alliance. They aren't as loved or cherished as the blood elves, it's a ne and we know that nothing is settled yet with this new thing. In fact i'd wager many players will welcome it as it validates their experience of the 7.0 and 7.1 content, and would accept nightborne that sided with the kaldorei and became kaldorei too, this is not some sort of beyond possiblity, just because the nightborne are available on the horde. All that means is that only the horde will have access to their model, as to the further story of the rac, well anything can happen.

And if it does, well I think you and i are both pretty certain, whatever happens, the horde will still have access to nightborne, so no need to worry about that.

16/09/2018 16:27Posted by Minairia
The Moon Guard Elf, Lothrius Mooncaller, wished to rewrite Night Elf lore as he found it fascinating, but actually wanted to go and visit Silvermoon's vast libraries.

indeed he did, and i woudln't be surprised if many borken isles night elves wanted to get along with both factiion of elves, see Silvermoon, rewrite night elf lore and a bunch of things..that is just part of the flavour.

We coudl just as easily see broken isles kaldorei side with the horde, however remember, the values of the horde, they don't fit your typical nightfallen rebel or kaaldorei, so while it could happpen, it would be funny. IT would be like you are purposeefuully now trying to forrce a ggroup not designed for that faction into that faction, when it would fit much better to take all the isles night elves and most of the nightborne into the faction they were designed for and leave a solid group of loyal horde and blood elf believing nightborne on the horde.

It was perfectly set up, the rebels go alliance, the loyalists go horde. Now that phase has past, you can achieve the same result through other mmeans because the lore has provided it,the nightborne horrified at the hrodes actions in kaldimor against the kaldorei join them, those who believe in pragmatism over life, stay horde. That makes sense also, given how you wrote the nightborne, those qquests haven't changed, you still see the nightborne valuing kaldorei life and you see them pretty much as the vein of kaldorei culture they are, it is really not surprising that some of htem would leave the horde over the actions in Kalimdor.

It may not happen immediately, but it could be one of the prices the horde pays. But ofc, horde fans don't expect the horde to pay any price. What they think is a good story is the horde winnning everything, walking over everyone, and getting the best of everything. If blizzard agree with this, they will be in for the same problem they had in classic, a massive horde population and a really unpleasant diminished alliance one.

it's really their choice, write interesting stuff that has some really good positives for the alliance too, not just hte horde, or continue with the horde gravy train and see how balanced a gaming environment it will result in or how many people they just drive away from enjoying their franchise.


"Alliance night elves"
"Alliance night elves"
"Alliance night elves"
"Alliance night elves"
"Alliance night elves"
"Alliance night elves"
"Alliance night elves"

That's all you keep posting, yet you keep forgetting - Suramar now stands with Silvermoon in their operations with the Reliquary. If Silvermoon becomes a Warfront, you can be sure the Nightborne will be there.
Thalyssra herself was personally apart of the operation to free both Zul and Talanji. She will not be welcomed within the Alliance now. She will be judged and she knows it.

The Alliance is not for her, nor is it for the Shal'dorei. You need to get to grips with this because you are seriously setting yourself up for disappointment.
You can brainstorm until your eyes turn pink and ensuring the nightborne go Alliance, but the fact is: they won't. Blizzard won't do that. Suramar's involvement with the Stockades breakout was sure enough clarification that the Nightborne's place in the Horde was of loyalty to said faction.
Thalyssra was involved with this. The blood of those Humans, Dwarves, Gnomes, Night Elves, Worgen and Draenei who died - they are partly on her hands and the Alliance won't forgive her for that. They won't forgive Suramar's involvement in that. Having Zul set Stormwind up in flames - Suramar, because their leader was involved, was apart of that.

You have got to realize that the your arguments about "Alliance night elves" is moot now because they are totally irrelevant. In the short space that the Nightborne have been in the Horde, they have already caused the Alliance huge problems, where their is no going back now. You've got to get over what happened in Legion. That's finished. It's over. The Nightborne will come on leagues and bounds from that era. They will be and continue to be, apart of the Horde because of their solid friendship with the Blood Elves.

And stop this nonsense about the Alliance will lose their playerbase because the Nightborne are not apart of it. Stop that utter nonsense. The Nightborne are not the be-all and end-all of these factions. They are Horde, with the potential to be neutral if some of Suramar's Mages join the Kirin Tor. The Night Elves are irrelevant in the Nightborne allegiances.
16/09/2018 19:29Posted by Minairia
That's all you keep posting, yet you keep forgetting - Suramar now stands with Silvermoon in their operations with the Reliquary. If Silvermoon becomes a Warfront, you can be sure the Nightborne will be there.


I haven't forgotten that, i just think it would be better for all the lore if some of the nightborne stood with their kaldorei kin, especially now they've seen what the horde is like and how much the blood elves enjoy kililng night elves, people who helped them, cured them and who they remember once being.

16/09/2018 19:29Posted by Minairia
Thalyssra herself was personally apart of the operation to free both Zul and Talanji. She will not be welcomed within the Alliance now. She will be judged and she knows it
I don't think that is an unforgiveable or no return action, especially if she goes out of her way to help both the beleagured night elves and the alliance, the vast majority of her actions we have both witnessed far better suit the alliance, while Elisande's suits the horde and the blood elves better.

If that was the case they should not have forgiven the nightborne for allying with the legion or the night elves for calling it in the first place.

If the night elves can forgive the Shen'dralar, and the humans can forgive the void elves, they can certainly forgive the Thalyssra, and they certainly woulnd't hold it against all nightborne who didn't partake in any of that, especially those who would risk the wrath of warchief just like the risked the wrath of Elisande to do what was right, in fact it would endaer them to them. I remember Tyrande who forgave Darth'remar Sunstrider, and because of his help theh first legion defeat was possible. I also remember Tyrande forgiving Illidan and releasing him, and he is the reason the Legion is no more.

Andui would welcome any horde race or group that wants to do right, as will the night elves. Especially in their current state. If there was ever a time for some nightborne to switch sides and earn the trust of the night elves by helping htem, now would be it.

16/09/2018 19:29Posted by Minairia
They won't forgive Suramar's involvement in that. Having Zul set Stormwind up in flames - Suramar, because their leader was involved, was apart of that.
If that was the case they should not have forgiven the nightborne for allying with the legion or the night elves for calling it in the first place.

If the night elves can forgive the Shen'dralar, and the humans can forgive the void elves, they can certainly forgive the Thalyssra, and they certainly wouldn't hold it against all nightborne who didn't partake in any of that, especially those who would risk the wrath of warchief just like the risked the wrath of Elisande to do what was right, in fact it would endear them to them. I remember Tyrande who forgave Darth'remar Sunstrider, and because of his help the first legion defeat was possible. I also remember Tyrande forgiving Illidan and releasing him, and he is the reason the Legion is no more.

Andui would welcome any horde race or group that wants to do right, as will the night elves. Especially in their current state. If there was ever a time for some nightborne to switch sides and earn the trust of the night elves by helping them, now would be it.

16/09/2018 19:29Posted by Minairia
The Nightborne are not the be-all and end-all of these factions.
Then why are you so vehemently opposed to something that would align the nighborne race and properly frame it with respect to it's 7.0/1 story, why are you so opposed to this if it isn't you that feels the nightborne staying put in the horde should by all costs be maintained even though it ruins the nightfallen story completely and makes Thalyssra/Lunastre and the rebels look like hypocritical liars

I am the one fighting for the integrity of the story to be maintained in the nightborne, for both sides to have some future role and relevance to the race, because it is a better fit. It is not good that all the nightborne go horde, and it is not beyond the point of no return. You know that, and this is why you are trying very hard to oppose this and attempting to trivialize it, ignoring or minimizing the very night elven nature of the nightborne and the symbolism of Suramar... nature saves them, not the light - blizzard were building and arcane- nature interactiion thing for them in 7.0 which is a night elf thing, not a blood elf thing. They are in a night elf city, they are night elves that have a slightly different appearance.

The alliance contributed equally to their freedom, and the kaldorei race from which they are helped them far more overall if you count the non-alliance night elves' contributions. Why do you think it is okay for them to be horde only, why do you think it is okay for the likes of Lunastre or Thalyssra after those speeches in 7.0 to be okay with the prgamatic mindset of the horde who will attack and conquer a nation because they will oppose them down the line?

It is not like that character at all. I know ANduin will accept a Thalyssra led nightborne group that wants to secede from the blood elves, especially if Tyrande does, and I can easily see Tyrande doing so IF these nightborne actually go out of their way to help them. Afterall, they didn't attack them or anything like that.
17/09/2018 18:39Posted by Kelibor
Then why are you so vehemently opposed to something that would align the nighborne race and properly frame it with respect to it's 7.0/1 story, why are you so opposed to this if it isn't you that feels the nightborne staying put in the horde should by all costs be maintained even though it ruins the nightfallen story completely and makes Thalyssra/Lunastre and the rebels look like hypocritical liars


Because no matter what - they made their choices to stand with the Horde. The Blood elves put more effort into helping and understanding their plight.

17/09/2018 18:39Posted by Kelibor
and it is not beyond the point of no return.


Releasing Zul of all people who in turn set Stormwind ablaze isn't going to sit well with the alliance council or the citizens of Stormwind.

Thalyssra had made her allegiances known now. We have to accept that. Much like Umbric - the two Elves have made their choices in their faction alignments.

Whether Umbric leads an assault on Silvermoon or Thalyssra and her Nightborne lead charges against the Night Elves is up to them. They are respective to their factions and they aren't going back. Too much has happened.

Andui would welcome any horde race or group that wants to do right, as will the night elves. Especially in their current state. If there was ever a time for some nightborne to switch sides and earn the trust of the night elves by helping htem, now would be it.


Accept, those who were released were big enemies of the Alliance. Zul and Talanji were dangerous and were threatening towards the Alliance.

Forgiveness simply won't happen since it's crappy writing for Anduin to forgive them after the Nightborne helped with that. Tyrande forgiving them also goes against her character. She isn't a forgiving type. If you have wronged her or her allies, she is not easy on the forgiveness side. Same with the Humans.
17/09/2018 19:45Posted by Minairia
Releasing Zul of all people who in turn set Stormwind ablaze isn't going to sit well with the alliance council or the citizens of Stormwind.

it's called creative writing, and given the situation of the state of affairs, the character of the peoople in question, it is definitely feasible, it is certainly more feasible than all the nightborne accepting this conquer to survive mindset of the horde. IT really doesn't fit all of them.

So if blizzard ever went that way, it would be a fix balancing the problem.

17/09/2018 19:45Posted by Minairia
Accept, those who were released were big enemies of the Alliance. Zul and Talanji were dangerous and were threatening towards the Alliance
Actually, we don't know much about Talanji, or why she was in the stockades.. i never saw a reason given in the horde or alliance sections, did you find out? I suspect she was on some sort of mission asking for help, but being a troll with the current state of affairs, the alliance shot first and sked questions later.

But i don't know. Either way, it really isn't as bad as some of the thing sthe void elves would have done as blood elves, or Moira Thaurissian did against the alliance or they against her..

Seriously if you think Thalyssra working under order but changing her mind against Sylvanas because she really doesn't represent her way of thinking is somehow unforgiveable then you either don't understand much about the very characters themselves or you're just wishfully thinking (and I don't mean this as some sort of offense - I am asking you to question your motives).

My argument makes sense, and is certainly in the plausible realm of possibility - ffs, anything is possible in this game, has previous precedence not been sense. My argument also makes sense and you know it.

It may not happen, in fact I will agree with you that is unlikely to happen, but only because traditionally blizzard hasn't bothered to fix issues like this or give nuanced detail that pulls everything together, they usually forget about work they have done in the previous expansions or content and just sometimes change stuff.

You have no idea how much i wish this was not so, how i wish i could be proud of a well thought out and contsructed story that would never fail in its authenticity, but alas, if the makers view it as just a game with story as backdrop, it is unlikely they are going to care to correct things i want them too, even if it will make the lore better and prevent inconsistencies.

So i really don't know why you are so bothered by this, unless you realize I do have a point and that could be a real possibility because it makes sense. Otherwise, you don't have to worry. They won't do it
Nightborne? In the Alliance? The same Nightborne whose leader is supporting genocide against the night elves? The only thing the nightborne deserve is a manabomb dropped onto Suramar...and after that we should burn down their precious little tree just to be sure.

17/09/2018 19:45Posted by Minairia
Thalyssra had made her allegiances known now.


Thalyssra is a giant hypocrite...ironically she also proved Tyrande right in the end.
I believe the epicentre of Elf population prior to the Sundering was situated above the now Maelstrom. There was a dungeon near the end of Cata which had the Well of Eternity.

That was Zin'Azshara the city. Not Suramar. I don't believe any of the characters Malfurion etc originated from Suramar.
Is this Forums of Alliance begging for more elves or what?

Grow up
i guess we're just sick of Alliance players constantly trying to appropriate our elven races

it's nigh constant
18/09/2018 06:14Posted by Promptoaugus
I believe the epicentre of Elf population prior to the Sundering was situated above the now Maelstrom. There was a dungeon near the end of Cata which had the Well of Eternity.

That was Zin'Azshara the city. Not Suramar. I don't believe any of the characters Malfurion etc originated from Suramar.


And this is what is so sad when I read, one of the greatest thrills of seeing Suramar was because I was seeing the night elf city I read about in the WotA trilogy, the home of Tyrande, Malfurion, Jarod and Maiev, of their great city and what it must have been like, how magical and wonderful it must have been, but how sad that so many of the elves their had become haughty and lost their original goodness.

I use to imagine what it would be like for these elves after undergoing a trial by fire like the legion, would snap to their senses and one day reclaim what they lost but with the humility and sane mindedness they now possessed.

How sad it is to see so many wow players and fans completely ignorant to the significance Suramar has with the alliance kaldorei and their leaders. That even despite Thalyssra's cinematic that shows a city full of night elves, so many don't know the lore enough to remember or associate the great city with a people.

They are so use to seeing night elves in ruins, and immediately a non ruined city of the night elves shows up, it and it's people are ported over to the horde leaving the very group once again bereft of one of the cool sides of its own fantasy, while the group written to be it's enemy gets to enjoy their own city.

Suramar is the city of origin for the core of the Wc3 night elves, yes there were many other cities, and great cities, Zin'azshari and Eldre'thalas amongst them, but the city that bore the champions who orchestrated the first ever legion defeat and are legends of Warcraft lore are night elves from that same city.

The high elves descend from night elves from Azshara's home city, the night elf capital. Why do you think night elf lore enthusiasts find the sequence of events almost like a theft...they basically took one of the most cherished and looked forward parts of the night elf core, and gave it ALL to the horde, and the truth none of that was necessary for horde to have gotten playable nightborne, the horde could still have playable nightborne without the city and most of its citizens, they could have got playable nightborne like how the alliance got void elves, a small group that are thrown out.

Allowing both factions to have a share in the nightborne like the quests had set up, the horde having the model, just like alliance getting the blood elf look alike model, but the alliance partaking in it by nightborne siding with them and possibly becoming kaldorei in appearance so the model stays exclusive to the horde.

The story didnt have to have all the nightborne horde, nor the city, it would have been sufficient for a group of outcasts, exactly like the void elves while the rest continue as night elves they once were.
18/09/2018 12:55Posted by Seråph
i guess we're just sick of Alliance players constantly trying to appropriate our elven races

it's nigh constant

I rather think it is the alliance sick of having all their elven lore and treasure, especially the nicest bits ported over to the horde, while they get the scraps.

The horde got the cream of the Thalassian elves, the lands, the city, the culture, the alliance an unplayable remnant, then a playable bunch of outcasts,., woukd the story be different for the night Elves? No, the night elves instead get wiped out, and their kaldorei civilization city and people instead of being used to bolster them, are taken with all their assets and given to the horde.

The horde already had a great elven civilization, the alliance's one didn't need to also go over and you know it. All the horde needed was a remnant group of nightborne, just like the void elves they got were, but instead they get all the fancy bits, can you honestly blame them?
so.. nightborne on both sides?

why not add high elves to the alliance as well? that way we have high elves on both horde and alliance side, + nightborne too!

i want gnomes on the horde side too!

lets also add draenei!

in fact lets not have any !@#$ing factions because you guys want every race on every side of this war.
18/09/2018 16:03Posted by Peonmaster
so.. nightborne on both sides?

why not add high elves to the alliance as well? that way we have high elves on both horde and alliance side, + nightborne too!

i want gnomes on the horde side too!

lets also add draenei!

in fact lets not have any !@#$ing factions because you guys want every race on every side of this war.

I don't think you appreciate how neat the solution is.

It is not nightborne on both sides because the ones who join the alliance become night elves. This allows the alliance to have had a role in the city and people they just saved and the night elves to have their kin and heritage play a role as one of them. Only the horde effectively get nightborne as only the alliance get void elves.

Or let me rephrase: Only the horde effectively get night elves in the form of nightborne as only the alliance get blood elves in the form of void elves

Alliance get a remnant of blood elves and horde get a remnant of night elves
Both the alliance and horde who both helped the night elves of Suramar get a part in their future. The horde get this with a small group of the nightborne as they are thenalliance get this with a larger group of nightborne that get restored to kaldorei.
The night elves gain their city from the lore back and have 1 elven city, the horde keep Silvermoon also having one elven city.
The forsaken get Icecrown Citadel, and some surrounding areas as well as Theramore.
Void elves get to bunk with another alliance race, nightborne get to bunk with a horde race.

When void elf fortunes improve, nightborne fortunes will improve.

An Example of How It Could Go Down
Rough Overview
The nighborne who sided with the horde got kicked out when things came to a head (if blizzard doesnt want some sort of co-existence) The alliance defecting nightborne elves in Suramar are all night elves now, the arcand'or fruit reversed the effect of the nightwell changes, a combination of druids and mages in an attempt to accelerate the balancing effect and eradicate any addiction ended up accelerating the effect in many shal'dorei who were born kaldorei and eaten the fruit first, as it was most (not all) of those who had been in the nightfallen rebellion that joined the kaldorei in disgust over the War of Thorns, and they are the ones that had been with the fruit the longest, it was they who changed.

However many of the city elite who had never faced starvation and only joined the revolt when it was clear the rebels would win, these and a few power orientated former rebels favoured the Horde, liking their different appearance, some of these who had started changing were able to counter and stop the acceleration, however, many of the younger shal'dorei born naturally nightborne had no such visible effect from the Arcan'dor, besides the majority of them preferred the blood elven vision, having never experienced the grandeur of the kaldorei empire at it's height, and only seeing the kaldorei in their war torn state, adopted the contemptable view of the sin'dorei for their siring race and rejected any interaction with them, instead adopting the view that they were a stain on the elven legacy and an ugly reminder of their fallibility. As such when the news of the genocide of elf kind in Kalimdor came, news that shocked and appalled many of the older original generation of nightborne born kaldorei, most of the younger nightborne applauded and felt inspired by the strength of their new allies much to the horror of their new leaders who had hoped the victory over Elisande and the legion had inspired all their kin to their nobler ancestral disposition. Whiles some of the powerful elite vying for leadership and hoping for horde help to do so, also took the side of the horde, much to the disgust of the others. And thus an irreversible divide occurred.

Horde side Story: Sylvanas sensing Thalyssra and her inner circles wavering resolve for the vision of the horde after the War of Thorns, set in motion a plan to inspire loyalty to the horde amongst a wavering nightborne populace. Killing Thalyssra would make her a martyr and the death of any of her council members might drive her further into the clutches of the kaldorei and cost her the entire race, a powerful new ally. Perceiving she could not sway her because of her insufferable values, Sylvanas and some concerned blood elves who reported on sentiments hatched a plan to discredit Thalyssra, and portray her and the ruling former rebels who were the cities new leaders, as weak and unfit for leading their people. They would say Thalyssra and her group were good for the legion conflict, but not to lead the people forward to the greatness that was their birthright, Thalyssra was weak, and much like the weak Kaldorei, she unwisely drained the nightwell that was a powerful tool that no longer crippled their race and made the shal'dorei dependent on non-elves and savages, needing the support of uncivilized allies. Elisande after all, was the one who truly saved the city, paying for her life to use the nightwell to destroy Gul'dan while Thalyssra hid behind outsiders (like Malfurion did) , not trusting in the strength of the shal'dorei.

Sylvanas was pleased to find a strong and vocal support amongst some of the cities elite, vying for position and power, but the most fervent came from some of the young. Unbeknown to her, however it also caused the opposite effect on many of the lower class, most of the original generation and most of the the nightfallen rebellion supporting elite.

Now young nightborne go forth to show their allies the strength and resolution of their race and are eager to lend their extraordinary intellect and skill to bringing conquest and victory for the horde.

Alliance side: The actions of the horde were indeed causing Thalyssra to waver and her heart was not in any of her warchiefs new schemes and orders, however the catalyst for change came from her closest friend Ly'leth Lunastre who was appalled at the behaviour of their new allies . They had joined a people they felt shared the same value for life but with a bold out take, not murderers of innocents and elves who had done no wrong but valued peace. When news of some of the horrors came, filtered in from refugees and kaldorei in the surrounding area, many a nightborne had offered helping hands, opening their homes, doing relief efforts, however when their horde sin'dorei allies heard kaldorei were been given sanctuary and aid, an edict was issued from the Warchief forbidding such and over ruling the authority and autonomy of the city's ruling council many of which were older nightborne originally born kaldorei and many of which had led the rebellion alongside Thalyssra, this made matters worse.

Many remembered their days as kaldorei in a flourishing civilisation and world they stewarded, a time when things were better, their people full of kindness and nobility, times when the Queen had waged war on butchers for such acts (this was before the fall to addiction), many also remembered the very recent help their kaldorei kin had given them even after the disgraceful Moonguard stronghold attack by Elisande, help in finding a cure for their withering state and awful dependence on the nightwell, gaining valuable artifacts without which victory over the legion would have failed, not to mention the battle strategies from great generals like Lord Raven Crest that had proven effective and life saving in their efforts even the harsh words of the formerly much venerated High Priestess, which had then come as a shock and sparked their hasty course of action, did not seem so bad in this light, as many began to see that despite those words, she had also put herself on the line for her former people, her sentinels and priestesses had died to help them, and perhaps she was owed a little more benefit of the doubt (but such is the relationship between family member huh, we get over-sensitive with each other) .

That was it! They were resolved, they would help their kin no matter what this Warchief said, and they hoped that the nobility of their kind that came through in the fight against the Legion would once more shine and certainly inspire their new quite splendidly looking blood elven allies to do the same as they had done against the Legion. It did not. When it became clear that their new elven allies would not assist, in fact discouraged it, with many fighting against it and when the kaldorei shared how delighted sin'dorei attackers were at cutting down their elven kin, only one course of action would be clear. They and their city would help their kin.

Sadly they did not realise that the Warchief had won enough hearts firmly over to her philosophy, things eventually came to a head, with one group siding with the kaldorei and the other with the sin'dorei, many of those who had been working with the kaldorei found themselves changing back too, much to their delight, however a few amongst them who secretly despised their former selves were dismayed. the druids had been working with the mages as a repayment for their kindness to ensure the healing work of the fruit would accelerate, no one predicted the extraordinary effect it would have. It was soon observed that this happened quickest on those born kaldorei, those born nightborne showed no sign of change though their health was even further improved. It was also during this period that they heard the first hand accounts of life after the sundering, and remembered how much they both had in common, of a time before sorrows. Many a nightborne heard of the struggle with addiction, the painful decision to ban the use of arcane in a world where using it meant bringing back the legion. Many nightborne were born kaldorei and so instantly understood what surrendering the arcane was for a night elf at that time. Disdain at weakness turned to admiration for a strength of resolve to do something like that to protect the world, especially knowing the dedication to Long Vigil would mean no rebuilding of civilization, would mean no use of arcane magic - a life the nightborne could not imagine.

And so they won the hearts of many of their kin. The time in the forests were no longer viewed as some sort of regression into savagery, but a dignified people that had kept theri integrity and suffered living in the simplest of conditions while dedicating their life to an endless state of alert - and though many a kaldorei did share that a life in nature wasn't so bad as it sounded, it still amazed many of their kin. They were delighted to have see such nobility andfierce resolve very much alive in their kin, and the outlook of the sin'dorei was flipped on its head. Many of these embraced returning to their kaldorei form, a form that signified nobility and courage with a legacy of both the arcane and nature. Defenders and protectors of the world.

When things came to a head, many of the islands kaldorei, including the high priestess herself, who had been working closely with them, combined efforts to oppose those from the horde side seeking to drive them out this time they won, and it was the loyal nightborne that had to flee the city, Suramar became kaldorei once more, the rest of the nightborne, retrerated to Silvermoon, where contingencies to retake Suramar and find alternative homes in Kalimdor took place.

Conclusion: This is just an example of how it could go. end result is a continuation of the story of the elves, that paints a more nuanced light and a better end result of how competing view points and philosophies come to head, one group get inspired by their former selves to great effect after a horrible tragedy, the other takes a position of strength from their new sin'dorei allies, viewing themselves as survivors of an event that almost ends them, but doesn't break them instead making them stronger, much like the sin'dorei resolved to be powerful and great so that no one would ever destroy, them so to those who came to side with them, would never be humiliated by a legion and would never look or be weak to the unworthy. And so you have a group of people that like the quests that had both factions involved in, the people are split with some going to the kaldorei, and some to the sin'dorei, those who go to the kaldorei cease to be nightborne and return to being night elves, shal'dorei night elves, but night elves, and they are proud for it, those who remain nightborne, are proud of their current disposition and allies. Win win win win win win for everybody, you get a beautiful story, good result at the end, both factions and groups of players get something out of this.. I'm gonna play now. Talk more tomorrow
15/09/2018 21:40Posted by Minairia
They do not care about Night Elves.


Neither does Blizz, tbh.
18/09/2018 18:56Posted by Tellie
15/09/2018 21:40Posted by Minairia
They do not care about Night Elves.


Neither does Blizz, tbh.


Tides of Vengeance suggests otherwise.
18/09/2018 20:33Posted by Minairia
18/09/2018 18:56Posted by Tellie
...

Neither does Blizz, tbh.


Tides of Vengeance suggests otherwise.


I'm not sure why it is night elf versus forsaken, aren't the main race in the area Orcs? Unless Darkshore is going to be the new forsaken home - which would be interesting, i always pegged their kalimdor HQ would be the ruins of Theramore.
15/09/2018 18:16Posted by Retributor
yes.
highborne=neutral race
void elv=neutral race

+
18/09/2018 21:29Posted by Kelibor
I'm not sure why it is night elf versus forsaken


New story and new layer for both races.

For a long time, it's been Humans vs Forsaken, Orcs vs Night Elves. It's nice to see something different and basically have a "Tyrande vs Sylvanas" sort of theme.

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