What do people think the problem is with tanking?

General
I see a lot of posts about people not being believing that tanks are playable this expansion, either because they are being trash talked or "tanks feels like paper".
Which are both things that I, as well as the tanks I know (mostly Brewmasters and Blood DK's) are not seeing as an issue.

If you've ever read a tank guide, that said: "You must understand the limits of your spec". This is very true, but maybe not for the reason that most people might think. You don't have to know a lot about your spec to stay alive as a tank. It's generally very easy, and for most specs rely a lot on the healer.

The reason you must know the limit of your spec, is because you need to keep up the pace. Simply put: "You need to keep your DPS'ers engaged".
You can't be the tank of your group and be the last one to reach the next pack of mobs. You can't stand in front of a pack of 3-4 mobs and ask for polymorph.
Your DPS'ers are getting bored to death. On top of that, their damage potential is going to waste. And the content you're doing is taking way longer than it has to.

Almost as important as knowing your class, is knowing the mobs.
If you're a DPS you might not realize it but generally for m+, knowing the tactics for the trash mobs is way more important for a tank, than the tactics for the boss.
You need to actually watch and learn what the mobs do, or read guides on it or youtube guides: FatBoss can be recommended.

Almost every m+ dungeon has mobs with hard hitting frontal abilities, which is their main damage. This means that you can actually pull a lot of these, and as long as you face them away from your group, and sidestep their frontal ability you will be good. (example: more or less every fat guy in Siege of Boralis)

Almost every m+ has hard hitting channeled abilities or dots that only affect the tank. If you know this, you can plan out your AOE stun to interrupt these attack.
When mobs have these kind of abilities, it (again) accounts for a majority of their damage output. Knowing these abilities and canceling that damage, allows you to pull way bigger packs.
(example: the monkeys in Freehold with their whirlwind)

(Important Reminder): It should generally be YOUR job to stun and cancel these abilities (or at least call for it), to make life easier for your DPS'ers, so that they can focus on dealing damage, as well as getting you all through the dungeon faster.

At higher +keys, you ofcourse need your DPS'ers/Healer to have an active roll in stunning, interrupting or offensive/defensive despelling.
But until you start tanking +9-10 and above, you as the tank have the ability to deal with almost everything (that does not have to do with the dispelling), assuming you of course have damage dealers of appropriate gear level and damage output.

This might have gotten a little lengthy, but as someone who have mained both DPS and Tank. Someone who does raiding and +10 mythic keys with guildies, as well as a lot +10-11 keys with pugs (Yes, on time). I really do not see this big issue of: "Tanks being weak" or "Feeling like paper" (which is what I mainly see on the forums).

That being said, tanking is a learning experience as requires practice to become good at.

Do people generally agree with my points? Or am I just a privileged Brewmaster?
If you think tanks are unplayable this expac, please enlighten me on why you think that way, I'd like to try and understand.
As someone who raided mythic last expansion & planned to continue doing so this expansion, for me personally, it's nothing to do with character strength - It's all about playability.

I could deal with being squishier & more healer reliant if the classes didn't lose so much & gain so little.
Half of the tanks are unplayable. The only good ones are DKs, Monks and Paladins somewhat. Warriors are paper, Druids don't have anything than being sponges, DH is the worst tank for raiding.
01/10/2018 10:49Posted by Swaggo
I see a lot of posts about people not being believing that tanks are playable this expansion, either because they are being trash talked or "tanks feels like paper".
Which are both things that I, as well as the tanks I know (mostly Brewmasters and Blood DK's) are not seeing as an issue.
I remember the first time tanking a BFA mythic and I also thought the same thing, I felt like paper compared to Legion, at the same time it was not something that you can't overcome (for prot paladin atleast), we have an ample toolkit only I wasn't used to fully applying it anymore since Legion in dungeons (in pvp everything gets used)
If you've ever read a tank guide, that said: "You must understand the limits of your spec". This is very true, but maybe not for the reason that most people might think. You don't have to know a lot about your spec to stay alive as a tank. It's generally very easy, and for most specs rely a lot on the healer.
This is rather dismissive of the current meta, Brewmaster monks and DK's are overrepresented in M+ to a degree where the arguement of skill simply no longer holds up.
The reason you must know the limit of your spec, is because you need to keep up the pace. Simply put: "You need to keep your DPS'ers engaged".
You can't be the tank of your group and be the last one to reach the next pack of mobs. You can't stand in front of a pack of 3-4 mobs and ask for polymorph.
Your DPS'ers are getting bored to death. On top of that, their damage potential is going to waste. And the content you're doing is taking way longer than it has to.
You are basically assuming what is happening in these dungeons where people complain with no evidence, assume that this is the case or that they havn't done this, do you realize how dismissive you sound? have you even tried any of the other tank classes?
Almost as important as knowing your class, is knowing the mobs.
If you're a DPS you might not realize it but generally for m+, knowing the tactics for the trash mobs is way more important for a tank, than the tactics for the boss.
You need to actually watch and learn what the mobs do, or read guides on it or youtube guides: FatBoss can be recommended.
The game is 14 years old, most players here have been along with the game for nearly as long, for all intents and purposes, the wow community grew up alongside WoW, we know trash is often more dangerous then bosses will ever be, that's been the case for nearly 2 years now.
Almost every m+ dungeon has mobs with hard hitting frontal abilities, which is their main damage. This means that you can actually pull a lot of these, and as long as you face them away from your group, and sidestep their frontal ability you will be good. (example: more or less every fat guy in Siege of Boralis)
Most tanks automatically turn mobs sideways from the raids, most tanks that do this do this out of habit because not only did we have frontal cones but rear cones to deal with in history.
Almost every m+ has hard hitting channeled abilities or dots that only affect the tank. If you know this, you can plan out your AOE stun to interrupt these attack.
When mobs have these kind of abilities, it (again) accounts for a majority of their damage output. Knowing these abilities and canceling that damage, allows you to pull way bigger packs.
(example: the monkeys in Freehold with their whirlwind)
Everyone knows that in M+ if it's interuptable you interupt it, exceptions exist but they are just that, exceptions.
(Important Reminder): It should generally be YOUR job to stun and cancel these abilities (or at least call for it), to make life easier for your DPS'ers, so that they can focus on dealing damage, as well as getting you all through the dungeon faster. At higher +keys, you ofcourse need your DPS'ers/Healer to have an active roll in stunning, interrupting or offensive/defensive despelling.
But until you start tanking +9-10 and above, you as the tank have the ability to deal with almost everything (that does not have to do with the dispelling), assuming you of course have damage dealers of appropriate gear level and damage output.
This is also well known, anyone pushing m+ knows this
This might have gotten a little lengthy, but as someone who have mained both DPS and Tank. Someone who does raiding and +10 mythic keys with guildies, as well as a lot +10-11 keys with pugs (Yes, on time). I really do not see this big issue of: "Tanks being weak" or "Feeling like paper" (which is what I mainly see on the forums).
Nothing wrong with being lengthy, the problem is that this post hits none of the core arguements as to why people say their tanks feel weak, you are assuming the disparancy between tank representation in m+, if all tanks were equal, this number would naturally even out, right now that is not happening, which means that right now we have reached a point where not skill is the main reason to bring someone, but class.
That being said, tanking is a learning experience as requires practice to become good at.
Only the people you're speaking too are veterans who have mostly done M+ before, not newbies who need a guide at how to tank.
Do people generally agree with my points? Or am I just a privileged Brewmaster?
If you think tanks are unplayable this expac, please enlighten me on why you think that way, I'd like to try and understand.
I agree with all your points, they're just not an answer to the issues, hell, they don't even address them

Tanks are playable, DH's and Monks toolkits however vastly outshine the others, Prot Paladin is viable, but warriors, oh god, those poor fools.

The tank imbalance atm isn't skill based, it's toolkit based and is the direct result of removing artifact weapons while going "WE DESIGNED ALL SPECS TO WORK WITHOUT THEM" then this happened.
main tank problem was always bunch of idiots in team. Pull extra stuff, not interrupting, have low damage..
Tanks have absolutely no control anymore.

We went from having control over our own hp pool (some healing) to having none at all and relying 100% on Healers (unless you are a DK)

Brewmasters do have some self-heal but it's mostly just rng (hoping that the balls will procc from the fire)
many reasons

#1 imo being that outside dungeons theyre not really needed, and you only need 2 for a 30 man raid so in a raiding guild you realistically have at most 3 main tanks while you can have 20+ dps

if you want to raid, what would give you the highest chance ? playing a spec that the raid only needs 2 of, or a spec that the raid needs 20 of ? ( an then 5-6 for healer )

01/10/2018 11:40Posted by Edgyjojomeme
main tank problem was always bunch of idiots in team. Pull extra stuff, not interrupting, have low damage..


thats not really an argument, you could be dps and get the same problems, ergo "healer is bad", "tank is bad", "the other dps is bad" , having bad teammates is not role specific

The tank imbalance atm isn't skill based, it's toolkit based and is the direct result of removing artifact weapons while going "WE DESIGNED ALL SPECS TO WORK WITHOUT THEM" then this happened.


Pretty much this. The tanks you are referring to, OP, are currently FotM (well, years in DKs case). Try playing Guardian. Or warrior.
Guardians magic mitigation is it's HP, which is now 3rd tier. Base armor is pretty low meaning pulls need to be continuous for constant rage or you need a CD like BS up to not be nuked by all the magic damage flying around. Only tank without a slow, or DPS CD (which they've had since god knows when, and which were REMOVED for the artifact, but never given back) and have the bottom tank damage by a good 20%.
Not having that slow makes M+ kiting easily the hardest thing to do on Bears compared to the rest of the tanks. And that's all M+ is. Kiting. You have to be VERY picky when making M+ groups as a bear to cover all the weaknesses you have that other tanks just don't have to think about. I know my bear, and I know my continuously diminishing tools, and I know the dungeons. But when other tanks do the job, but 10x easier, with more damage and things like Ring/Mass grip/AoE silence, you're going to see those gaps for a good reason. It's simply not worth bringing underperforming tanks.

Toolkits create the gaps in tanks playability, and as someone that's tanked since TBC it's frustrating to feel like a burden for playing a class you enjoy whilst watching something with so much versatility become so one dimensional without the basic QoL tools every other tank has, and arguably needs, to remain competitive.

Tank balance is trash. The tank numbers/represented in Mythic Uldir/high keys show this.
01/10/2018 10:49Posted by Swaggo

Which are both things that I, as well as the tanks I know (mostly Brewmasters and Blood DK's) are not seeing as an issue.

Exactly. Only 2 tanks good.
01/10/2018 10:49Posted by Swaggo
I see a lot of posts about people not being believing that tanks are playable this expansion, either because they are being trash talked or "tanks feels like paper".
Which are both things that I, as well as the tanks I know (mostly Brewmasters and Blood DK's) are not seeing as an issue.


Ever wondered why the tanks you know are mostly brewmasters and blood DK's? To be honest, I thought this was a troll post in disguise for a minute.

I was planning on playing tank for BfA. I don't have an incredible tanking exp on this game, I've only cleared WoD normal and heroic content as a tank, and kinda skipped Legion raids and sticked to LFR. When I saw prot war patch notes I was amazed at how brutal the nerf was. I thought screw that, let's just try, there must be a way.

I was disappointed. I felt like I need to outgear the content in order to clear it. With time I learned to improve on my rotation, rage management and defensive abilities uptime, but I still don't like that feeling of not having the control over the fight. It's all so tight that the slightest mistake might get me killed. And as a tank I feel like having the control over the fight to allow your DDs to do their job is important.

I finished leveling my 2nd war on alliance side yesterday and went on tanking the timewalking dungeons. I forgot it was heroic content and that my 268 ilvl may be a problem. I spent most of the time at 30%hp but managed to only die like 4 times for all 5 runs (weekly quest).

It made me think that gear dependency, this idea that I must outgear the content is not entirely correct. It may sure help, but the root cause still seems to be with the class and spec rather than gear. One of the things that often comes to my mind is hell... If at least I had life regen abilities as with fury spec...

I can't speak for other classes, I did not finish leveling my DK as I just don't like its gameplay much, and my DH is somewhere around lvl 115. I have seen other non war tanks do incredibly well, though I've only played in lower keys (+2 +3). Most of the DK's and Brewmasters I know generally tell me how OP they feel as tanks, and how sorry they are for my war x).

I'd be curious to see if there's any prot war with a positive experience out there.

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