Preachs video and its accuracy about M+

General
While i agree that ppl get far more gear than they actually should have, it dosent mean these players have to be braindead. It takes 5 min to learn a dungeon and how to handle trash/boss abilites.

it would also take them 5 min to learn what abilites their classes have.

But even this is too hard for these players.
Skill doesn't equal ability and ability doesn't equate skill.

One player being good at something doesn't mean that the person who watches that player doing some sort of content will allow the player watching him or her to become as good. Repetition makes you good at doing something but that's only because you do it. Watching another person doing the same time doesn't give you the skill to do the same. It only gives you the abilities to copy what was done.

Your way of playing is never going to be the same as that of someone else because our brains function differently. One person may say "I can't ever remember anything about how to do quests." and that wouldn't give me, who has most quests memorised, NO RIGHT to say "git. gud". The SAME goes with raids or PvP. You don't offer anything good with those words. If you say this, I'd assume you're good at the particular skill.

My argument always is... if you want to tell someone else to become good, then you yourself must be good at the skill or ability, then TELL HOW you got this good. If you found out an easier way to stun a healer in a battleground, there's no gain in telling a player who says "my stuns don't work on healers in a battleground. How can I fix this?" to "git. gud". No one learns from such a rather condescending reply. The goes with the "google it" btw.

The reason why I can remember so much of the quest text is by repetition. I do quests a lot. I read the text for the quest...

I've just told, in part, why I got this skill or ability.

How about people who are so ready to use the "git. gud" thing TELL why they are supposedly good at a skill that they are placing themselves at the top of the pecking order by telling another player, it seems, they need to be better players. WHAT makes you that oh so skilled player that you put yourself above others? Actually a sign of leadership, and that's according to my old raid leader, is the ability to communicate skill and ability and to teach others what you yourself know. Because instead of saying to get better, he took me to the nearest dummy and we practised side by side, experimenting with rotations, comparing stats, gear and speed of button slamming. He discovered by chance I had excellent CC skills on my main because of this process. He wouldn't have discovered this had he just told me "git. gud". In fact, I still use what I learned from him today, and I guess that's one reason why 75% of the rares of Kul Tiras and Zandalar were killed solo by me using every CC and dps skill learned from a raid leader who valued teaching skill instead of just being condescending and talking to other players in a way that I'm seeing in this thread.

It does make a big difference in how you talk with other players, and if a player feels valued by what you say to them, they're more likely to act in the same way further along the line. I get "I'm glad there's still helpful players around" over and over and the simple reason is that I do try to explain, help or figure out what a player is after (knowledge or whatever).

I actually do wonder at times what's up with those people who use the "google it" or "git. gud" thing. Is it perhaps that YOU don't know enough of this game. There are raids or dungeons or dungeon difficulties I've never done so far. But it takes me five minutes to discover the information I need to know. Can't you spare a person asking a question the courtesy of taking five minutes out of your busy schedule of...errmm... let's say for example standing around Boralus or Stormwind to answer them with useful information. I'm saying this because I answered a question and then SAW the person who'd said "google it" going AFK in Stormwind. This to me shows a lack of respect that permeates in this game these days.

For ever answered question you are not just making the person asking the question a bit wiser but all the rest of the people reading may also benefit from it. The only reason I became this person who wants to remember quests and retain knowledge (so much so that I've directed people through Stormwind in a single whisper with a "turn left, then right, then over the bridge and all that blah blah") to a destination they were after when they asked "can someone show me where such and such is?" and then get an amazed "oh thanks, amazing skill you got". I just remember stuff because I associate words with images when I'm doing something. So killing ten of a specific mob becomes associated with the quest asking it, and then next time I do it I can just see the quest title and know where to go to do it. And there I've just explained how I developed this ability or skill or whatever it is. Instead of a condescending answer be the SAME with your supposed skill or raiding or PvP. Or don't you know HOW you got that raid done or that PvP win once the event is over???
30/10/2018 19:29Posted by Verath
Just like he says, the game keeps throwing gear at you in content you cannot lose, so it's not exactly hard to figure out why things like this happen. People don't learn the content because they have no reason to learn, until they try gear appropriate content and all of a sudden when abilities actually do damage it's a shock.

And thus raider.io came into existence and became as popular as it is now. ilvl means sh*t nowadays.

I largely agree with Preach on this, but I don't think the problem is just what he mentions. It's the overarching game design of WoW in the last... 4+ years. Everything has lead to people being essentially trained to be bad at the game without even being able to figure out that they are bad or why they are bad without outside help.

Then when they step into content that is not designed to be completed by a group of randoms with zero communication all hell breaks loose.
30/10/2018 19:39Posted by Shayrala
Is it perhaps that YOU don't know enough of this game.


Ye.....no. There are MANY bad players out there, even if you tell them what to do and how do do it, they still dont listen, dont care or just still manages to screw the easist thing up. How hard is it for example for a blood dk to move a MELEE add out of snaguine. ONE add that was still alive.

I hate these "maybe you are bad" Bs ur writing. No one knows it all, but everyone can improve and learn the basics..
30/10/2018 19:39Posted by Shayrala
Skill doesn't equal ability and ability doesn't equate skill.

One player being good at something doesn't mean that the person who watches that player doing some sort of content will allow the player watching him or her to become as good. Repetition makes you good at doing something but that's only because you do it. Watching another person doing the same time doesn't give you the skill to do the same. It only gives you the abilities to copy what was done.

Your way of playing is never going to be the same as that of someone else because our brains function differently. One person may say "I can't ever remember anything about how to do quests." and that wouldn't give me, who has most quests memorised, NO RIGHT to say "git. gud". The SAME goes with raids or PvP. You don't offer anything good with those words. If you say this, I'd assume you're good at the particular skill.

My argument always is... if you want to tell someone else to become good, then you yourself must be good at the skill or ability, then TELL HOW you got this good. If you found out an easier way to stun a healer in a battleground, there's no gain in telling a player who says "my stuns don't work on healers in a battleground. How can I fix this?" to "git. gud". No one learns from such a rather condescending reply. The goes with the "google it" btw.

The reason why I can remember so much of the quest text is by repetition. I do quests a lot. I read the text for the quest...

I've just told, in part, why I got this skill or ability.

How about people who are so ready to use the "git. gud" thing TELL why they are supposedly good at a skill that they are placing themselves at the top of the pecking order by telling another player, it seems, they need to be better players. WHAT makes you that oh so skilled player that you put yourself above others? Actually a sign of leadership, and that's according to my old raid leader, is the ability to communicate skill and ability and to teach others what you yourself know. Because instead of saying to get better, he took me to the nearest dummy and we practised side by side, experimenting with rotations, comparing stats, gear and speed of button slamming. He discovered by chance I had excellent CC skills on my main because of this process. He wouldn't have discovered this had he just told me "git. gud". In fact, I still use what I learned from him today, and I guess that's one reason why 75% of the rares of Kul Tiras and Zandalar were killed solo by me using every CC and dps skill learned from a raid leader who valued teaching skill instead of just being condescending and talking to other players in a way that I'm seeing in this thread.

It does make a big difference in how you talk with other players, and if a player feels valued by what you say to them, they're more likely to act in the same way further along the line. I get "I'm glad there's still helpful players around" over and over and the simple reason is that I do try to explain, help or figure out what a player is after (knowledge or whatever).

I actually do wonder at times what's up with those people who use the "google it" or "git. gud" thing. Is it perhaps that YOU don't know enough of this game. There are raids or dungeons or dungeon difficulties I've never done so far. But it takes me five minutes to discover the information I need to know. Can't you spare a person asking a question the courtesy of taking five minutes out of your busy schedule of...errmm... let's say for example standing around Boralus or Stormwind to answer them with useful information. I'm saying this because I answered a question and then SAW the person who'd said "google it" going AFK in Stormwind. This to me shows a lack of respect that permeates in this game these days.

For ever answered question you are not just making the person asking the question a bit wiser but all the rest of the people reading may also benefit from it. The only reason I became this person who wants to remember quests and retain knowledge (so much so that I've directed people through Stormwind in a single whisper with a "turn left, then right, then over the bridge and all that blah blah") to a destination they were after when they asked "can someone show me where such and such is?" and then get an amazed "oh thanks, amazing skill you got". I just remember stuff because I associate words with images when I'm doing something. So killing ten of a specific mob becomes associated with the quest asking it, and then next time I do it I can just see the quest title and know where to go to do it. And there I've just explained how I developed this ability or skill or whatever it is. Instead of a condescending answer be the SAME with your supposed skill or raiding or PvP. Or don't you know HOW you got that raid done or that PvP win once the event is over???


I will never leave "git gud" behind, it's not derogatory, it's short for:

"You are extremely disrespectful to anyone's time by not putting in the minimum effort to learn things and you demand everything be easy just so you could get things for free.".

(Just as a side note: most people on the forums DO NOT ask questions. They cry, they literally blame a system for them being bad. What do you answer to that?)

The sheer amount of resources you have at your hand is criminal, it's just disgusting how many guides / streams for any role / class there are that you can follow and BE GOOD EVEN BEFORE YOU STEP FOOT in the dungeon itself. The streamers themselves are so interactive and so is their chat, I always asked them about "how does this work" or "why did this happen" and they were always helpful, never belittling me for asking, but you bet yo posterior they would've been if I went there crying like some people do "man, I died on this boss because I'm bad - Blizzard should remove r.io!"

There's absolutely no excuse for you to not know at least the core things of a dungeon. It's ok to not know everything if you're below a certain score, for example, I still have to learn quite a few things and I know I can't ever get to, say, 1.6k because I'm not as good, but that doesn't mean I can't take the time to learn and get better.

Wowhead, streams, method, MDT, discord. People have been more than friendly in helping you if you actually ask and not just cry.

I met this guy on r.io's Discord, his name is "Lear", really cool guy, he's at ~600 rio, but he understands that the system is good and doesn't cry, he says that's his level and he's happy with him, he'd like to push more but he knows he doesn't understand the mechanics well enough but he's working on it.

I can only give him my respect and wish him well and hope to see his "WoW dreams" realize, god-speed. To the people who cry and not want to get themselves up and work?

Nothing. No special treatment, no attention, just a single, short "git gud". Sorry, but if you don't wanna help yourself, why should I?

To these who say that it's your group:

My 1.2k friend on his alt is running keys out of his mind and he's still climbing because he's genuinely good. If you're good, you'll climb and get into the better groups 100% of the time. There's no elo system to punish you for depleting a key in M+. So, yes, it is your group but if you're good, you'll eventually pull ahead. Question is: do you have the patience / time to do so and are you reallllly that good?
biggest problem whit M+ is the affix combination vs classes, some classes just have no chance to do what they are supposed to do, then combine that whit affixes you can not even get to, like the explosive affix on some bosses, specialy first boss in toldagor on higher M+, having wrong classes there, and you have no chance to do anything, even if you use macro target, you can not do anything about it, specialy melee can not get in range fast enough, and then have 2 or even 3 melee in group and you are close to screwed on it.

class combinantion is the biggest problem over all, though affixes that should not be combined is an other. it makes some dungeons harder than they realy should be.
Preach is once again 100% on point.
30/10/2018 19:45Posted by Phodapopo
My 1.2k friend on his alt


So your mate is doing better then you then in such an EZ enviroment and in lesser gear then you :) i think its you who needs to "git gud mate"
He presented the issues from different perspectives and provided more than one take on the issues.


Not really. His main issue was that pugging a high level m+ is a lot harder than in Legion. He didn't even consider that this might be a design goal, as Blizzard are trying to push m+ as an e-sport. Of course it's not easy to consider Blizzard's pov, as in most cases Ion doesn't care to talk about their design goals both in Q&A and forum posts.
30/10/2018 19:54Posted by Shumensko
He presented the issues from different perspectives and provided more than one take on the issues.


Not really. His main issue was that pugging a high level m+ is a lot harder than in Legion. He didn't even consider that this might be a design goal, as Blizzard are trying to push m+ as an e-sport. Of course it's not easy to consider Blizzard's pov, as in most cases Ion doesn't care to talk about their design goals both in Q&A and forum posts.


Trust me, its designed for E-sports. Just note how many changes they did after first MDI and then even more changes after second MDI. Blizz this timed tried to tune stuff for players that represent less than 1% of the playerbase. Its less than 1% of the playerbase that even reaches to MDI lvl and gets to MDI.

And these players are still pushing 19 and 20 keys, like 2 months into BFA. So the top pushers got around it, and all the new design does is punish the rest of the 99% players. Add this on top of !@#$ty players who dont bother to learn anything and think u can zerg everything whitout /care to mechanics makes it even more "fun"
30/10/2018 19:59Posted by Capon
And these players are still pushing 19 and 20 keys, like 2 months into BFA. So the top pushers got around it, and all the new design does is punish the rest of the 99% players.


Yes, that was my point. Making trash pulls a lot more important, they make MDI a lot more entertaining. So imo it was intentionally designed that way, and from Blizzard's pov his issues are void. And he clearly didn't even consider this in this video.
30/10/2018 19:54Posted by Shumensko
...

Not really. His main issue was that pugging a high level m+ is a lot harder than in Legion. He didn't even consider that this might be a design goal, as Blizzard are trying to push m+ as an e-sport. Of course it's not easy to consider Blizzard's pov, as in most cases Ion doesn't care to talk about their design goals both in Q&A and forum posts.


Trust me, its designed for E-sports. Just note how many changes they did after first MDI and then even more changes after second MDI. Blizz this timed tried to tune stuff for players that represent less than 1% of the playerbase. Its less than 1% of the playerbase that even reaches to MDI lvl and gets to MDI.

And these players are still pushing 19 and 20 keys, like 2 months into BFA. So the top pushers got around it, and all the new design does is punish the rest of the 99% players. Add this on top of !@#$ty players who dont bother to learn anything and think u can zerg everything whitout /care to mechanics makes it even more "fun"


As time goes on players become better.

Try to compare Uldir to a Classic raid and the difference in mechanics is astonishing. This isn't necessarily because of the high-end raiders. Content is always gonna advance as the players become better.

At least in theory. Because this requires people to actually become better, but if there is no reason besides raiding/M+/PvP to actually look at you own gameplay, own mistakes people tend to just stagnate on their current skill level.

But I'm not trying to deny the fact that MDI was in the minds of the development team when they designed BfA dungeons. I think this is a fair assumptions.
30/10/2018 19:40Posted by Ishanku
I largely agree with Preach on this, but I don't think the problem is just what he mentions. It's the overarching game design of WoW in the last... 4+ years. Everything has lead to people being essentially trained to be bad at the game without even being able to figure out that they are bad or why they are bad without outside help.

Then when they step into content that is not designed to be completed by a group of randoms with zero communication all hell breaks loose.

Actually, I think he is covering exactly that point, from 8:40 onward, where he asks "Whare is the learning curve of WoW now?" and discusses this, referring back to his "Accessibility and Apathy" video from five years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFWh9aY4pas
which I think has to be one of the best discussion videos about WoW ever made.

30/10/2018 19:05Posted by Shumensko
I like a lot his videos about raids, mechanics, etc, but his opinion videos are as bad as Assmongold's.

I disagree. Watch Asmongold's rather disorganised rant about Titanforging. Then watch Preach's more analytical and fact-based take.
30/10/2018 20:17Posted by Gráinne
I disagree. Watch Asmongold's rather disorganised rant about Titanforging. Then watch Preach's more analytical and fact-based take.


Well, that was obviously a metaphor. Noone can be as bad as asmongold.
30/10/2018 20:21Posted by Shumensko
30/10/2018 20:17Posted by Gráinne
I disagree. Watch Asmongold's rather disorganised rant about Titanforging. Then watch Preach's more analytical and fact-based take.


Well, that was obviously a metaphor. Noone can be as bad as asmongold.

DOH! Of course! I should have known. ;P
I said this in another thread, it really is frustrating to think that there are players out there that whinge and whine because they cant do certain mythic+ knowing full well they've blagged there way in and not bothered to put any effort in.

No it shouldn't be nerfed, the stupidly high keystones should remain hard for those players who put the effort in and have the ability to handle them. I am not that kind of player.

Run mythics until you can go any further then stop and analyse your performance figure out what you need to do to better yourself and do it. If you don't want to then that's fine, don't moan when the next keystone is unachievable because that's nobody's fault but your own.

Im a casual player, pretty crap at my class I can get by in LFR mythics and normal raids have no interest for me I really cant be bothered putting in that little bit extra effort to up my game enough so as not to be a drag on my team. I have always said there should be content for us casuals/crap players and then content and rewards and challenges for the hardcore folk. Ive seen a few mounts id like , when I find out how to get them I say meh I cba, I don't come to the forums to call for nerfs and whinge because such and such is out of my reach.
30/10/2018 19:36Posted by Capon
While i agree that ppl get far more gear than they actually should have, it dosent mean these players have to be braindead. It takes 5 min to learn a dungeon and how to handle trash/boss abilites.

it would also take them 5 min to learn what abilites their classes have.

But even this is too hard for these players.


Don't know if you watched the video he mentioned ( recorded 2013 )
People weren't pushed to learn content then and they aren't pushed now.
It even got worse over the years.

Item levels are being thrown at players left, right and center from extremely easy queue able content. Add some TF/WF and Item Level wise they believe their "ready" for more challenging content. Face rolling an M+ with a single affix is easy, even for players that think interrupting means that their mom is knocking on bedroom door.

Add another Affix and the game changes drastically for them. Suddenly wipes occur every other pack, thus content must be over tuned. Let's be honest, it's not really human nature to self reflect and put the fault on ourselves.

Player base and Blizzard are both to blame for this. Players wanted access to better loot ( easy to get ) Blizzard provided that, but also made content that require players to do more than just perform below average.

Quite funny detail in Preach video, was him showing damage meter and he stated clearly that he was doing as little as possible, yet he had loads of players below him. Suppose they all did an "experiment"

I wouldn't mind seeing Proving Grounds be brought back again.
30/10/2018 19:29Posted by Verath
Just like he says, the game keeps throwing gear at you in content you cannot lose, so it's not exactly hard to figure out why things like this happen. People don't learn the content because they have no reason to learn, until they try gear appropriate content and all of a sudden when abilities actually do damage it's a shock.


And this is why people use RIO score for inviting people to key pushing (10 and beyond). Because you are flooded with gear and ilvl doesnt mean anything.
30/10/2018 19:48Posted by Seffi
biggest problem whit M+ is the affix combination vs classes, some classes just have no chance to do what they are supposed to do, then combine that whit affixes you can not even get to, like the explosive affix on some bosses, specialy first boss in toldagor on higher M+, having wrong classes there, and you have no chance to do anything, even if you use macro target, you can not do anything about it, specialy melee can not get in range fast enough, and then have 2 or even 3 melee in group and you are close to screwed on it.

class combinantion is the biggest problem over all, though affixes that should not be combined is an other. it makes some dungeons harder than they realy should be.


I think classes really do matter, indeed. Not only for affixes, but also just classes/specs that are left out. I just cry when I play on my 1 week old dingend holy paladin when I look at all the stuff that I can dispel, what I can not on my shaman. Or all the buff cooldowns + combo's + options to heal multiple players + immunity + low cd personal + group defensive + tank cooldown(s).

My guardian druid who is now alting on a BDK and me are doing so much better than we were doing on the same ilvl on our mains. We just had our first evening of M+, and we just grabbed 3 random guildies/discord community dpsses. I quote him after the evening; 'Was fun, but it is slightly depressing how badly you can play DK and do okay :p'. And i am *sighing* too.

You can not say "gid gut" when you do not have the tools in your classes.
Do people really call themselves good for doing PvE?

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum