8.1 Spoilers: Lost Honor cinematic

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04/11/2018 02:38Posted by Chíeun
We get it, you love Sylvanas and Nathanos and just about all Forsaken in any and all carnations.

But that isn't true, in their current writing I don't really like Sylvanas or Saurfang. I get it might suit to just refute with a no u instead, but I can cite multiple posts where it's just you constantly whining, and whining about Sylvanas or Nathanos in some form or another. While I think you will be hard pressed to find me saying I love her.

It begs the question, are you posting IC?

04/11/2018 02:38Posted by Chíeun
Honestly though, I am serious. What other character traits has he displayed?

It will always be a revolving door of complaints. One minute people moan that everyone's too nice and reveres the mighty hero. So what do Blizzard do? They have Nathanos be rude to your status. Result? People moan about that. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I personally enjoy that he doesn't kiss my feet, I found him enjoyable in the warfront campaign too, even his little comments during world missions.

Considering those two were lovers in life it make complete sense he's devoted to Sylvanas, as are the Forsaken who - naturally - near worship her as a liberating saviour. Sylvanas herself personally came to rescue him from his state of mind control in the Plaguelands. I think that would make most people quite devoted (even without romance prior).

We've also seen in Before the Storm a kinder side to Nathanos, one that is polite to civilians, at least courteous. He is just a big tsundere to the champion. He was also well written in the initial pre-BFA novels IMO.
04/11/2018 01:54Posted by Narmë
03/11/2018 20:50Posted by Aerilen
Warchief Lor'themar tbh.


In one hand, yes, bring our Lord Regent to glory. On the other, "Warchief" come with two Damocles Swords those years ("Gonna turn iveul soon" and "Gonna die soon") so I'm not wishing that on Lor'themar.


They should make him a really lowkey, boring and hands on Warchief.
No particularly grandiose plans, you just run into him here and there.
"Greetings champion, don't mind me, just inspecting the troops."
"Hello [class], Gallywix has been trying to convince me that we need to start mining this mountain so I have come to see for myself."
"Have you tried the meat of these [Not-stags]? You should, go collect the meat from 5 of them and meet me back here."
04/11/2018 04:16Posted by Pullo
It will always be a revolving door of complaints. One minute people moan that everyone's too nice and reveres the mighty hero. So what do Blizzard do? They have Nathanos be rude to your status. Result? People moan about that. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I personally enjoy that he doesn't kiss my feet, I found him enjoyable in the warfront campaign too, even his little comments during world missions.

Considering those two were lovers in life it make complete sense he's devoted to Sylvanas, as are the Forsaken who - naturally - near worship her as a liberating saviour. Sylvanas herself personally came to rescue him from his state of mind control in the Plaguelands. I think that would make most people quite devoted (even without romance prior).

We've also seen in Before the Storm a kinder side to Nathanos, one that is polite to civilians, at least courteous. He is just a big tsundere to the champion. He was also well written in the initial pre-BFA novels IMO.


Different strokes for different folks I guess. I despise disrespectful gits with inferiority complex. I don't need people to kiss my feet nor to revere me but being rude and obnoxious for no reason? Just as bad imo.

But if you like being treated like dirt then more power to you I guess.
Would it kill them to have a majordomo who was, I dunno, a peer? Someone who isnt going to kiss our boots, because they themselves are impressive too, but who appreciates who/what our chracter is?

Its all about nuance, something Blizz really seem to struggle with over and over.
04/11/2018 04:16Posted by Pullo
We've also seen in Before the Storm a kinder side to Nathanos, one that is polite to civilians, at least courteous. He is just a big tsundere to the champion. He was also well written in the initial pre-BFA novels IMO.


I think this is worth highlighting; if you focus on the game there is a whole array of characters who are drab and disinteresting or not at all explored., from Liadrin to Nathanos. There are plenty of characters which fall flat in-game due to how Blizzard tell their story in an MMO.

The biggest mistake I think blizzard have made is stopping the many short stories that came with each expansion; it was a nice way to dig into characters and give them a little bit more.
Plot twist: Princess Talanji shall be the new Warchief.
04/11/2018 11:09Posted by Renothar
Plot twist: Princess Talanji shall be the new Warchief.


I find Talanji to be pretty bland as a character and a case of a story being told, rather than shown. Yeah, she's a bit of a carbon copy of Anduin in terms of personality traits. I'd totally take Rastakhan over her in a blink of an eye.
04/11/2018 11:17Posted by Garathil
04/11/2018 11:09Posted by Renothar
Plot twist: Princess Talanji shall be the new Warchief.


I find Talanji to be pretty bland as a character and a case of a story being told, rather than shown. Yeah, she's a bit of a carbon copy of Anduin in terms of personality traits. I'd totally take Rastakhan over her in a blink of an eye.


I'd take Dazar. Maybe Zul was right.
03/11/2018 23:54Posted by Uruk
03/11/2018 23:31Posted by Antherian
...

Are you saying we should all get a chance to... Mount Nathanos?


The only thing about Nathanos I want to mount is his head on a pike.


So... Not much mounting Nathanos... But more like him giving head..?

(Sorry, I'm being silly.)
I don't mind the fact that Nathanos is intentionally an a-hole. What I do mind is that seems to be near enough his ONLY character trait.

While, yes, many WoW characters are just as 2D, the issue seems to stem from the fact that while other characters may be similarly shallow, they're at least friendly or likeable in some form. Nathanos purposefully isn't, so with nothing in-depth or likeable about him I can't bring myself to enjoy his presence at all. If he had more to him I could perhaps look past that and appreciate him like I did Sylvanas Pre-Cata. I didn't -like- Sylvanas before but I could appreciate her as a character and didn't mind at all when she popped up now and then.

It's like if Handsome Jack from Borderlands had absolutely no charisma or character depth. He calls you up to sneer and insult you, purposefully being written to be disliked, but had nothing that made me feel any kind of connection or empathy whatsoever, in such a case I'd only dislike him as a whole. While the other characters could be just as shallow but at least I could empathise with them. There's a reason Handsome Jack is a fan favourite despite being a villain (or anti-hero in the case of the presequel).

Some of the best anti-heroes/villains in fiction have had significant depth and character to them without kissing the feet of the player or protagonists (Quite the opposite at times). And they're all the better for it. But take away that depth and you're just left with a cardboard cut out that makes jabs now and then that very few people can empathise with.

I would like to see him fleshed out more in future, whether he stays loyal to Sylvanas or not, I don't care, I just hope they can give him some actual character that isn't just 'Insult the PC, serve Sylvanas' on an infinite loop. He can do both of those things and be in-depth... I just struggle to trust Blizzard to do that.
04/11/2018 04:16Posted by Pullo
We've also seen in Before the Storm a kinder side to Nathanos, one that is polite to civilians, at least courteous. He is just a big tsundere to the champion. He was also well written in the initial pre-BFA novels IMO.


Okay, so he is a totally different person in the novels. So that is where the problem lies?

Because your wall of text just says that you like a character who is rude to the player. Which yes, as I said, he is a douche. But that alone does not make for a very interesting character. People are more complicated than that. Or are supposed to be.

I can cite multiple posts where it's just you constantly whining


I complain about them a fair deal, because they are taking the Horde down a road I did not signed up for when I joined. Naturally that does not make me particularly happy, because I love(d) the Horde just the way it was. Now, I can deal with this if they actually live up to that and go all in, but they don't. The Horde under Sylvanas is trying to be the Rebels and the Empire, at the same time. That makes me even less happy.

So yes, when I see only one real major problem, you bet that will be the focus of my complaints. Should be obvious, really.

It begs the question, are you posting IC?


Yeah Chieun is still reading Before the Storm shhh
It begs the question, are you posting IC?


Yeah Chieun is still reading Before the Storm shhh

04/11/2018 13:40Posted by Chíeun
they are taking the Horde down a road I did not signed up for when I joined


:thinking:
I mean yeah I was 110% Horde until BFA. I literally did not touch Alliance.

Seeing something I am passionate about slipping away does make me sad.
04/11/2018 14:31Posted by Chíeun
I mean yeah I was 110% Horde until BFA. I literally did not touch Alliance.

Seeing something I am passionate about slipping away does make me sad.


The Horde has always been an inconsistent mess, IMO.

In vanilla/TBC it was sold as a group of under dogs, banding together out of need due to the imperialistic tendencies of the Alliance.

And as time went on this "family" vibe started to be pushed, but that doesn't work for half of the Horde. Tauren, trolls and orcs. Sure. But now we have nine races in the Horde. While some of the new races (such as Highmountain) can easily gel into that idea, what of the Nightborne? Hell the Blood Elves still feel very much external to this 'family' idea.

And then, as we saw in Cata-WoD, the orcs were mostly willing to turn on their supposed family*.

The Horde, for a long while, has been a mess. It goes against itself every other expansion and Blizzard keep flip-flopping with its ideals. Sylvannas has a lot of support throughout the Horde, for example despite this (morally grey) conflict going against the family horde(tm) ideals.

(*it was a majority until Blizzard retconned it, which is quite funny).
04/11/2018 14:31Posted by Chíeun
I mean yeah I was 110% Horde until BFA. I literally did not touch Alliance.

Seeing something I am passionate about slipping away does make me sad.


And you think this is the fault of the fictional character Sylvanas, rather than the story development team of Blizzard?
04/11/2018 15:14Posted by Moody
04/11/2018 14:31Posted by Chíeun
I mean yeah I was 110% Horde until BFA. I literally did not touch Alliance.

Seeing something I am passionate about slipping away does make me sad.


And you think this is the fault of the fictional character Sylvanas, rather than the story development team of Blizzard?


Everything we debate ITT is the result of the latter. But I am being specific. Said team does not only do bad things, so I complain about what is bad.
04/11/2018 15:18Posted by Chíeun
Everything we debate ITT is the result of the latter. But I am being specific. Said team does not only do bad things, so I complain about what is bad.

In your opinion, when was the last time that the Horde, or a Horde character, got good writing?
04/11/2018 15:14Posted by Moody
04/11/2018 14:31Posted by Chíeun
I mean yeah I was 110% Horde until BFA. I literally did not touch Alliance.

Seeing something I am passionate about slipping away does make me sad.


And you think this is the fault of the fictional character Sylvanas, rather than the story development team of Blizzard?


People can be angry about the symptoms as well as the actual illness.
04/11/2018 15:24Posted by Taxania
04/11/2018 15:18Posted by Chíeun
Everything we debate ITT is the result of the latter. But I am being specific. Said team does not only do bad things, so I complain about what is bad.

In your opinion, when was the last time that the Horde, or a Horde character, got good writing?


Hm. I am assuming you don't count anything from the initial Zandalar questing experience, as no one there is Horde yet? Same with the Nightborne, I LOVED their storyline.

I enjoyed early Garrosh - one of my favourite points in WoW, in fact. If that 'mistake' Garrosh who ended up more nuanced and charismatic than they intended had been kept, I would have been happy.

It's kind of hard to pick a specific piece and say 'this is good writing' because Blizzard rarely goes in-depth, so instead it is an overall impression formed by the Horde of its era.
04/11/2018 15:33Posted by Chíeun
It's kind of hard to pick a specific piece and say 'this is good writing' because Blizzard rarely goes in-depth, so instead it is an overall impression formed by the Horde of its era.

But you do make it sound like the last time that you were truly happy with the Horde as a whole in its entirety was back in Cataclysm.

A lot of your arguments, and even the fact that you changed from the Horde to the Alliance, make it seem like you're angrier with the Horde for having gone down this dark path than you are with Blizzard for having written them into this awful direction.

Sometimes you give the impression that you're angrier with the players who have stuck with Sylvanas's Horde despite its flaws, than you are with Blizzard for being responsible for what the Horde has transformed into. Blizzard's bad writing; that's what the rest of us are frustrated about whenever the Horde gets even more news or gets pushed even further down this dark path.

A character like Sylvanas shouldn't have been written into the role of Warchief in the first place. The Horde shouldn't have been written into being a faction of villains seeking to kill hope and destroy life. Saurfang shouldn't have been written into the role of being an honourable messiah by sparing the Horde's foes, refusing to return the Horde and turning against the Horde. This miserable rehash of Mists of Pandaria's plot shouldn't have been written, full stop.

Perhaps it's time to point at Blizzard's writers and say "you screwed up," rather than place the blame on the faction they have written poorly, or the characters that they have written poorly, or even the players that are the victim of the same bad writing that you have an issue with.

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