Tanks in Arena - viability

Arenas
which assumes that there is equal distribution of classes among players of certain ratings


What? No. It assumes there's an equal distribution of players among classes. Which there is.

The rating is the result of tuning and available comps. Bad classes are underrepresented, good/OP classes are overrepresented.

If it looks like a duck and squacks like a duck it's probably a duck.

in my opinion more skilled players tend to not like easiness of DH and blandness of easy damage rotation


I find this hilarious. My dude, if people want a complex class to play they'd be on !@#$ing AT playing 3.3.5 Rogue not here.

Don't you get it? Every class has been dumbed down. It's a moot point and a meaningless argument, not to mention you literally can't prove it and it's extremely unlikely that one class out of 12 would push people away.

It's as played as any other class.

you should act less aggressive and do less of your expressive


My patience has limits.

stuff you suggest doesn't even make sense


It makes perfect sense. The overtuned comps/classes are overrepresented. Mage, Rogue and Priest make up 42% of the playerbase above 2K. That's insane.

your in-game experience with DHs doesn't feel very convincing either


You don't know how to argue. Arguments are based on facts, not opinions. Opinions are meaningless before raw data. That's just a popularity contest at that point.

I could be a random player from a Private server that never played BFA and my argument would be just as valid because I'm not using opinions or my anecdotal, personal experience which would mean nothing even if I was 3K rated, I'm using statistics from Blizzard themselves.

When you see Mythic guilds using mostly ranged DPS it's not because melee are less skilled, it's because ranged offers better benefits.

When you see Blood DK and Brew Monk preferred in high end content it's not because the other classes are less skilled.

And when you have 3 classes out of 12 making almost 50% of the population it's not because the other 9 classes are less skilled, it's because those 3 are overtuned.
Wow whisperer vs kelduril *grabbing a popcorn*
02/11/2018 01:03Posted by Kelduril
It makes perfect sense.

how does adaptation against mana rift make perfect sense?

02/11/2018 01:03Posted by Kelduril
What? No. It assumes there's an equal distribution of players among classes. Which there is.

well you can't say DH is not broken, because people who play it don't have high rating if you don't know whether people who play it have on average same skill as people who play other classes

if for example DH is more popular for noobs and less popular for skilled players, then you don't have equal distribution at certain ratings
if you don't have equal distribution there that means you cannot say DH is not good enough because people don't get high rating with it because it wouldn't be the case of "DH players can't get high rating on average" as you suggest, but it's the case of simply players being on their rating and the ones who are high rating are same rating they would've been but just on average don't pick DH as much

if you cannot disprove this scenario, then your "statistic proof" is completely useless and doesn't prove anything

02/11/2018 01:03Posted by Kelduril
You don't know how to argue. Arguments are based on facts, not opinions. Opinions are meaningless before raw data.

Your data is fine. Your conclusion from them is idiotic.
It's like if I got data of more boys being born than girls and I would've said that it's because boys lifes are easier.
I am not arguing with data you provided, but with nonsense conclusion that unless you assume a lot of stuff as I said now and many times before then it'd not work.

02/11/2018 01:03Posted by Kelduril
And when you have 3 classes out of 12 making almost 50% of the population it's not because the other 9 classes are less skilled, it's because those 3 are overtuned.

Again, assumption. You can call this data, but it's not anything else than assumption for which you'd not support evidence (and I am not talking about another your idiotic evidence of how 3 classes make 50% population, I am talking about evidence why does that mean they're overtuned)

02/11/2018 01:03Posted by Kelduril
I'm not using opinions

you're actually using data, that doesn't prove anything and rest of your nonsense are your opinions, mostly wrong, like with adaptation against mana rift
02/11/2018 01:03Posted by Kelduril
Arguments are based on facts, not opinions.

The only facts you gave is that DH is less popular and that Adaptation is good counter to Mana Rift.

One of those is not saying anything about if DH is broken or not and the other is nonsense, because you don't bother to check information you provide.

You didn't provide any fact that'd have suggested that DH is not broken.
Amazing how this thread rapidly changed.
Dammit Keldurii and Whisperer just kiss already!
Every class is half as complex as it was in WOTLK.

On Shaman I had Earthbind, Grounding, Tremor, Stoneclaw, Armor totem ( name eludes me ), Healing Stream/Mana totem, Fire Nova totem, Magma Totem, Searing Totem, Totem of Wrath, Poison dispelling totem, Nature res, Fire res, Water res totems.

Lightning Shield, Earth Shock, Flame Shock, Frost Shock, Wind Shear, Thunderstorm, Elemental Mastery.

Like holy hell it doesn't even compare.


Thats why you called 3.3.5 ele most mongo spec in game? You said something like " wotlk ele was 2 button spec"
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it might be less played than few specs above 2k rating
but your "which means..." is only your opinion, that's not a fact, that's not a statistic
yet you try to somehow force into this "bulletproof statistic argument"
nobody really doubts that DH is not most played class ever


How is it possible to miss the point so much?

Dude, if

1. a class is played by an average number of people-- which DH is, it's not the most played but not the least played, middle of the pack.

2. people claim said class is broken/overpowered/super easy to play

the only conclusion is that a lot of those DH players would be high rated, since '' the class is so broken/easy/overpowered "

Yet this is clearly not the case, as DHs are rocking a 2.5% representation above 2K while Survival is like 6%, Balance is like 6%, Enha is like 6% and Rogues are 13%.

Even though all those classes are as popular as each other.


This makes no sense. Representation means nothing. Your hated RMP just struggles very hard against DH teams. Especially on Tournament it's 3-0 to the DH team. DH is probably not just the strongest melee, but the strongest class in the game atm. It's a cancer in pvp. It deals 2 times or so more damage than a rogue and mage together + it's even cleave, have the best mobility of all classes, best defensive, has as many CC-s as a rogue, and one of them is even AOE. And... Mana Burn.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/329185608?collection=y9LXlzpDYhU6yw
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How is it possible to miss the point so much?

Dude, if

1. a class is played by an average number of people-- which DH is, it's not the most played but not the least played, middle of the pack.

2. people claim said class is broken/overpowered/super easy to play

the only conclusion is that a lot of those DH players would be high rated, since '' the class is so broken/easy/overpowered "

Yet this is clearly not the case, as DHs are rocking a 2.5% representation above 2K while Survival is like 6%, Balance is like 6%, Enha is like 6% and Rogues are 13%.

Even though all those classes are as popular as each other.


This makes no sense. Representation means nothing. Your hated RMP just struggles very hard against DH teams. Especially on Tournament it's 3-0 to the DH team. DH is probably not just the strongest melee, but the strongest class in the game atm. It's a cancer in pvp. It deals 2 times or so more damage than a rogue and mage together + it's even cleave, have the best mobility of all classes, best defensive, has as many CC-s as a rogue, and one of them is even AOE.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/329185608?collection=y9LXlzpDYhU6yw

Gotta love the complexity of DH playstyle. Sit on healer - do pve rotation - win.
Edit: just watched second match, where he trained mage. Too complicated - I'm out
Top ladder representation off specs is clear proof that certain specs are or arent op. You cant deny it.

There are two possibilities:
1 you think dh is op and nobody can prove you wrong so you will come up with your false statistic analysis.

2 you think dh is op and you rly think that statistic does not matter cause you believe what you see and no proof can change your mind.

If you arguments that:

- ppl that are playing DH are overall less skilled
- ppl that are skilled are playing certain classes
- ppl pickdd up their mains long ago before DH
- and so on (if i missed something point it)...

... were valid, we'd have ALWAYS (from 1.1 or 2.1 when arenas were introruced), same amount of same clases. With little differences. Is that the case? How many warlocks are now in top100? How many locks was in top 100 in legion? Cata? Same amount? How many DH was in top 100 during legion season1?

This number changing is clear proof that ppl are playing strong specs and they are wining with it and they are sittin at top of rankings. It is fact. You can deny it but it is just stupid. It is like you said that if some politician win election it is not cause ppl wanted to vote for him but rather luck cause ppl tend to mark first name on the list. It can be true. In theory. But srsly?
02/11/2018 19:53Posted by Hermenegild
How many warlocks are now in top100? How many locks was in top 100 in legion? Cata? Same amount? How many DH was in top 100 during legion season1?


I am just saying there are many factors. So you cannot say just class not as much respresented = class bad.

Especially when they are crazy strong, have uncounterable abilities, flood blizzcon (did you see the game now how they won within a minute with DH just obliterating healer?) Chunli completely deleted healer out of the game.
As for ladder, there are not maybe too many Demon Hunters, but there is certainly some people with very high rating playing Demon Hunters, they were multiple Demon Hunters in TOP 20.

So saying "there is not many Demon Hunters, so DHs are bad" is not only wrong, because representation itself may suggest stuff, but by itself doesn't prove anything.
People here compare DH to other classes when DH has only one spec for PvP and other classes have usually 2-3.

And yes, you don't see many Warlock in ladder either. But they didn't make it to top10 either, they have 3 specs unlike DH and you don't see them much in tournament either.

02/11/2018 19:53Posted by Hermenegild
Top ladder representation off specs is clear proof that certain specs are or arent op. You cant deny it.

Oh... how uneducated of you.
I can deny that. It's claim you asserted without evidence, which means it can also be dismissed without evidence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitchens%27s_razor
It's called Hitchen's Razor.
Top ladder is definitely not representative. OP vs representation is just hard to gauge in general. When specs replace other specs in their classic comps or less usual comps replace more general ones or there are double spec comps, that's a sign something in the class is a bit broken.During parts of legion when WMD was more represented than RMP/D because sub was !@#$; when double feral or double DH or now double SP is a think, its because something is broken about the class (e.g. edge of insanity right now, which is also the only reason i guess SP is viable but still).

Even when double DH was a thing, DH wasn't that represented.
So saying "there is not many Demon Hunters, so DHs are bad" is not only wrong


And where did i said that? Where is your education? I said DH is not op. If it was it would be much more represented in top ladder.

02/11/2018 20:27Posted by Whisperer
I can deny that. It's claim you asserted without evidence, which means it can also be dismissed without evidence.


It was WITH evidence. If you wake up and there is snow everywhere it means it felt last night. Sure, someone could bring it in the bucket and threw around. Sure.
02/11/2018 21:40Posted by Hermenegild
I said DH is not op. If it was it would be much more represented in top ladder.


overpoweredness is not only factor how ppl choose classes, so this require to be proven
so far you did not

02/11/2018 21:40Posted by Hermenegild
It was WITH evidence.

What's the evidence? Don't see you presenting any for your claim
What's the evidence? Don't see you presenting any for your claim


Top ladder is representation of balance CAUSE PATCHES/HOTFIXES AFFECT IT. This is evidence i gave you two posts ago. Yet you still do not see it?
02/11/2018 19:53Posted by Hermenegild
op ladder representation off specs is clear proof that certain specs are or arent op

I asked you to prove that top ladder representation proves overpoweredness of specs
you replied with this stupidity

03/11/2018 13:18Posted by Hermenegild
Top ladder is representation of balance CAUSE PATCHES/HOTFIXES AFFECT IT. This is evidence i gave you two posts ago.


now you see that you're completely ilogical and doesn't have any comprehension at all

it's like if I said you're stupid because you're dark iron dwarf and you asked me to prove that being dark iron dwarf makes you stupid and I'd reply that you're dark iron dwarf therefore here's your proof

I tried to make the post least insulting as I could but seeing you not being able to comprehend what proof means made me need to spice it a bit.
You know that you insult only yourself cause my statement is completely logical?

If spec is op it is represented in top ladder. Then it is nerfed and it isnt represented anymore. This is what we see for last ten years. But you still dont see it? And you try to insult me? If dh was op as you say it would have highest winrate therefore it would be in top of rankings.

Dh is played in blizzcon and it wins games easily yet same players cant pick dh and climb 3200k? Why? Cause in long, nontournament reality, DH isnt that strong. If they can pick jt and win blizzcon why dont they pick it and dominate ladder?
Blood dks and prot warriors are ridiculous, but right now it's impossible to play them because of Moonkins, shadowpriests being immortal and RMPALA
03/11/2018 13:59Posted by Hermenegild
You know that you insult only yourself cause my statement is completely logical?


Okay, I will destroy you with Mathematics then.

If your statements are logical thus:
"top ladder representation off specs is clear proof that certain specs are or arent op"
is true, because of this:
"Top ladder is representation of balance CAUSE PATCHES/HOTFIXES AFFECT IT."

then I can make analogical claim that you're ilogical and wrong because you're playing Paladin
and it's true because you're playing Paladin

thus if your analogy is correct, then you're wrong (because of my statement)
if your analogy is not correct, then you're wrong (because you're not correct)

since the first "if" is contradiction, then necessarily second "if" is true
thus you're not correct, so you're wrong
If you see any analogy to these statements i am rly sorry for you;)
There is, both are circular proofs. Thus stupid.

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